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This is an intriguing topic, really. If there is no free will, much of what we believe as Christians is perhaps meaningless. And really the whole premise of this sub forum is fundamentally impossible. Some have already attacked the idea that we can't have any original tho it's since there is nothing new under the sun, etc. But I think we really need to analyze this more closely. Think about it. The process of thinking about it, brainstorming, creativity, invention, etc. is hard to see as all preprogrammed. While indeed we are creatures of habit and learning is a process that builds on prior knowledge and experience. But the fact that we can relearn and correct mistakes and break habits tends to undermine the premise that we are unable to choose freely. Encountering completely new facts and circumstances and master the situation and create new experiences suggest a deeper level of cognition at work that isn't completely robotic. Creativity and inventiveness to improve existing functions and realities of life also suggest that the human mind contains something beyond super computer processes that build on prior learning, experience, data, etc. I think that creativity alone is a significant evidence of free will. But to me, the quest for artificial intelligence provides the strongest evidence that humans have something not technologically achievable. Free will? The ability to create surprising and completely new things different from anything else ever known to mankind requires something more than super computing and preprogrammed responses to all data contained in the brain. There is an element that technology is simply not able to replicate, even in the most advanced artificial intelligence. Human intelligence creates AI and AI will always be artificial and cannot create beyond what it contains. Humans can.

I would just add one thing to this thread. God never makes concessions with sin. If He did Jesus need not have died on the cross, and the human race need not have had a death sentence against it because of sin. Where did Jesus, or Moses, say divorce was OK and that God was conceding that He had made a mistake in how He set up marraige and should have allowed divorce to begin with? The language we use is very important for words have meanings, and concession is the wrong thought to convey what God did in this instance. God never yeilds to sin. He makes arrangements to overcome it, but He never concedes towards it.

I also ran across the text that so many skeptics love to use to try to discredit the Bible. Hiram built a "sea" that was 10 cubits in diameter and 5 cubits high. The Bible then says the circumference was 30 cubits. That number is used to try to discredit the Bible. What I found out when I started playing with the numbers is that circumference actually tells us what the thickness of the walls of "sea" was. Here's the math. 1. 1 cubit = 18 inches 2. Bowlor sea) was 10 cubits across in total 3. Bowl was 5 cubits high, or exactly 1/2 of a perfect sphere. 10x18 = 180 inches 5x18 = 90 inches 180 x pi = 565.486677646 inches which is the outer circumference of the bowl Bible says circumference was 30 cubits. 30 x pi = 540 inches. Now, if we take the outer circumference of the bowl and compare it to the circumference given by the Bible we find a difference of 8 inches in total between the diameters. 540 divided by pi = 171.887338539 inches. 180 - 171.887338539 = 8.112661461 inches in difference or just about the thickness of two hairs over a 4 inch wall thickness of the bowl. That means this bowl had a volume of 768.77 cubic feet and held, if filled to the very top, just a hair under 5,751 gallons of water. Thus, it needed a 4+ inch wall thickness to hold all that water. Isn't it just amazing how accurate the Bible is, and how it teaches us to actually think about what we say? I would say we should never doubt the accuracy of the Bible.

I was doing a word search the other day and ran across the text where the Bible says when Absalom shaved his head once a year the hair he shaved off weighed 220 shekels. Well, it made me curious so I did a little research into how much 200 shekels actually weighs in measurements that are familiar to us. From a combination of Bible dictionaries I found the the following. 1. 20 gerahs = 1 shekel 2. 13.7 grains = 1 gerah 3. 1 grain = .0648 grams. 4. 28 grams = 1 ounce 5 16 ounces = 1 lb Thus. 13.7x20 = 274 grains per shekel 200 shekels at 274 grains per shekel = 54,800 grains 54,800 grains x .0648 = 3,551.04 grams 3,551.04 divided by 28 (28 grams per ounce) = 126.822857143 ounces 126.822857143 ounces divided by 16 (16 ounces per lb.) = 7.926428571 lbs. Absalom grew almost 8lbs of hair per year. I find that an astounding number and that is one huge pile of hair. It's no wonder he got caught by his hair in a tree.

I can tell that you were inspired when you wrote that. Your post was a rare glimpse into the way God thinks. I have printed your post and filed it in my "Important papers" file.

hi Wanderer! I posted this link in the "Happy Columbus Day" in the Townhall http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day ... it tells you all about how Columbus related to the Natives! hold on tight! and BTW... The OP here wants us to just share imagination/ideas of What this Americas would be like if not discovered for awhile the link above i am sharing can derail this badly. u can share your thoughts about the Discoverer COLUMBAS here!

What I so like about GayatfootofCross's post is his pointing out how tolerant God is of our ENORMOUS and ONGOING sinfulness. Many folks give testimonials about how they were drug addicts, and were sinners till they found Christ, cleaned up their lives, and now they are these hugely improved church goers. GayatfootofCross is putting his finger on a problem that even the very best Christian is still hugely sinful and offensive to God, even AFTER conversion. Just because we have accepted Christ does not mean that the following has changed 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The trouble with us Christians is that we clean up a few areas of our lives, attend church, keep the sabbath, believe a few doctrines, and lose sight of what GayatfootofCross is pointing out which is the verse above Gen 6:5. We are very irritating to God, even as Christians. What is so irritating to God is that we Christians are smug in our righteousness viz. the few things we do such as tithe and keep the Sabbath. This is what the message to the Laodiceans is about. We Christians think we are in need of nothing. We Christians sometimes love to beat ourselves up. I am not into self flagellation. Self-flagellation makes it all about us yet once more. Instead it is all about God, and His kindness. I even think we condemn ourselves for the wrong reasons - such as not being mission orientated enough. GayatfootofCross better than I can, tells us what we should examine which is offensive to God.

I learned this from Ty Gibson's book "See With New Eyes". That is, the idea that sin changes us (specifically how we vie God), but doesn't change God. He's still as gracious, kind, compassionate as ever. God is so misunderstood and so misrepresented, but it just rolls off Him like water off a duck. Makes me think of the statement from the Spirit of Prophecy that Christ was nether elated by applause or dejected by censure.

If humans don't have Neu5gc, carnivores should consider human flesh since it might be safer!

This is one of the best posts I have ever read on any forum. Amen and Amen!

well here goes! we sin so much as natural sinners as the day is long even after converted to HIM. Every selfish act Every time we have a thought about another that is not the one Opinion that GOd has for them (i.e. I don't condemn them and I love them And I died to save them). Every time we checkout or go into fantasy and not be present for someone. Every time we envy or lust or have anxious thoughts. Every time we want in first or the bigger slice. Every minutia of every thought that Doesn't Put God first or to love on every person we meet when it is not convenient. From the huge lifestyle choices of spending money on the latest gadgetry or latest fashion or hoarding more than you need to the tiniest guilty pleasure of winning arguments and trying to be right all the time.. It is all sin that we don't even count as such.. but breaks THE TWO Commandments that Jesus shares. The Title of this OP ends with."..the List is Long" We have no idea how sinful we really are and we have no idea How gracious GOD is with us every moment that we breath out judgement or rude comments or fault finding or an accusation. (ever see that here?..you think they cry on the pillow after every post of that nature.. and then do it again?) From our thoughts to our disapproving eyes to our proud look. The list is so long and insidious we don't have the mental complexity to confess every night or to even know how much an innocent comment we made actually hurt someone. We are sinners who sin like breathing. And some of us even have the ignorant audacity to think we have overcome so much that we count the sin on two hands for the day and be pretty proud we are closer to GOD and almost ready to be translated? I met them. They brag at prayer meetings. The closer we draw to GOD the more sinful we realize we are and yet at the same time (if u have a clear View of HIM) ..How Much HE loves us anyways and already Forgiven no matter what we selfishly think or what we have done or said thoughtlessly or an impulse we acted on.. God doesn't fixate on our sins. We do! God is so good and so patient and so beautiful that He is called LOVE..He is not called a God of love..he is summed up as LOVE and that love is personified by JESUS CHRIST and even spelled out by Paul. Love does not keep track of Wrongs ! Cor 13:15 It is a facet of LOVE! ............................................ Changes Gears God does not turn away when we sin. We do. When God showed up in the cool of the day for the evening face to face relational conversations they ran! God knew where they were and yet called out "Where are you?" As dignity and respect and Love would do..waiting to be invited. God is coming to tell them the Good News! and they couldn't hear it. Their sin blocked GOD from them Not the other way around. For centuries God has been in the mud with us. slowly leading us. God called Ezekiel and he said no i wont prophesy ..So God Concedes and let Ezekiel be a living parable for the Israelites to see. He was afraid (not trusting GOD and a blatant disobedience) Ezekiel had a Vision of Heaven even! I see God lowering and lowering and lowering Himself to reach man. Men of violence and war.... even dying for the very people that was killing them and mocking them. Yet FORIVING them at the exact same time! What unutterable Love we have here Folks! None of this is a grand display as an act of manipulation..It is God being HIM ...and understanding our individual emotional spiritual makeup. Working within the Culture of child sacrifices of the Canaanites during Abraham's Life. Workin within the society that judges women for bearing or not bearing children (men blamin the women ) . Working for a Culture that values slavery. Working for a Culture that covets other nations for having a King. And if God is going to Allow a King out of their hardness of heart. GOD will use this as an Illustration as a Type of KING OF KINGS!.. And even the 2nd Child of ill gotten gain spread God's wisdom and riches and greatness so much the reputation had the Queen of Sheba come to learn about GOD! It is a great illustration of how God works with us sinners. This facet of LOVE HIMSELF extends to places we don't even realize. This facet as well as the other facets of God's Love wins our hearts over to HIM. Do some take advantage of this Grace? Yes. that is an individual choice But God keeps pouring it on. HE will do anything to reach you and me. Anything! [drops mic]

Wingnut: The Bible says very clear you have to seek HIS WISDOM through THE HOLY SPIRIT! But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith ELOHIM, I will pour out of THE SPIRIT upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of THE SPIRIT; and they shall prophesy: Act 2:16-18 There are different types of work to do, but the same ELOHIM produces every gift in every person. The evidence of the SPIRIT's presence is given to each person for the common good of everyone. The SPIRIT gives one person the ability to speak with wisdom. The same SPIRIT gives another person the ability to speak with knowledge. Another can work miracles. Another can speak what ELOHIM has revealed. Another can tell the difference between spirits. Another can speak in different kinds of languages. Another can translate languages. 1 Co 12:6-8, 10 (GW) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which THE HOLY SPIRIT teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co 2:13 And he changeth the times and the seasons: HE removeth kings, and setteth up kings: HE giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: He revealed the deep and secret things: HE knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelled with HIM. Dan 2:21, 22 The secret things belong unto YAHWEH our ELOHIM: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the Words of this Law. Deut 29:29 The Bible says: Study to shew thyself approved unto ELOHIM, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more unrighteousness. 2 Tim 2:15, 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of ELOHIM, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of ELOHIM may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:16, 17 You see I pray and study not adding or taking away from the Bible. I also to believe that words have been changed in the Bible. So I look up words through word origins which provides their original meaning. EGW is a supplement to the Bible and I know if she cannot supply Scriptures to back up what is reveal, the is her thoughts. She has made it very clear about error and not to take her over the Bible. Here I have given you Scriptures to show the truth. You and Rachael have not shown anywhere the rapture and the Bible clearly states every eye shall see YAHSHUA coming in the clouds of GLORY! ELOHIM said HE will send a strong delusional for those to believe a lie! ELOHIM also deals with numbers Three, four makes seven, 10, 12. THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS, four corner on the Golden Horn represented the four corners of the earth and there were only four horses! 10 means universal, 12 sons of Jacob or Israel, 12 disciples and 12 gates into the city. There are more numbers but these are some of the significant ones. Finally lines upon lines that the Bible states as well, which means symbols are put together like a puzzle. The Bible is not like other books. ELOHIM give the summation first and then breaks it down how it all comes about. When you try to read your way instead of HIS you become confuse!!!! Blessings!

Can two walk together unless they are agreed. God cannot bless sin, and in His presence sin is exposed. We cannot walk with God unless we agree with what the Spirit reveals to us. The Spirit reveals, our sin, our need of God, that we become aware of in the presence of His Holiness. And then the Spirit reveals that sin and the Satan are fully condemned and are sentenced to end. The Death of Christ revealed the end of sin is death. In Jesus sinners have a living hope and may have a progressive experience the power of the Death and Resurrection of Christ. In the unfolding of these truths rests the desire of God for all sinners to turn to Him and live... a great exercise of graciousness and patience and kindness has always been extended to humanity, has always been given through Jesus. It is the Goodness of God that leads us to repentance. Jesus is the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. The Light of divine love exposes our corruption in our fallen humanity, and offers to us His divine nature that we may escape... and this truth is a struggle for humanity to grasp. The love of God asks us to surrender to Him our whole being to step into His will for us and to forsake our selfish will. He that hath begun a good work in us will finish it. Amen.

Acts 17..... 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at ; but now commandeth all menevery where to repent : 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness God winks, or turns a blind eye to - you are right that God is a God of concessions. We have all earned the wages of sin which is death. So God has to make concessions and extend grace, for now, or we all would be toast. Not such a good strategy to deliberately do what one knows to be sinful behaviour. This sears one's conscience and comes close to tempting God. It is important that we worship God out of a clear conscience - and to do this we need to root out private sin. And God will help us do that.

Rachel raises some interesting questions. While some of her thoughts lie outside of standard SDA thinking, other of her ideas would be quite acceptable in standard SDA thought. Why do I say this: Because, Rachel is often not as far outside Adventism in her thinking than she thinks she is.

It seems you are making a distinction between "you" and "your brain". This distinction needs to be better established/documented, because as I see it, "I" am "my brain". Without the brain one does not exist/??/... So to imply that "I" try to make decisions contrary to "my brain" does not compute, because the one is the other. Also, it seems you are assuming that "free choice" applies, or should apply to, ABSOLUTELY EVERY ASPECT of existence. If you can demonstrate that "free choice" does not apply to "situation A" then we have not "free choice" at all. I, for one, would reject that premise. Of course, like jballew7 said, ...this is [also] a little beyond my [expertise]. But curious, none the less.

Matthew 7:20-22 …20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'…

If you study scripture with the intent of white washing your own behavior or behavior you would like to engage in there isn't any doubt you will find it. To study and learn what God wishes for you is really quite different. Some people do an excellent job of making the scripture say what they want it to say