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I just read this bit of ancient wisdom. "If a man says to his brother, 'You are an apostate', then one of them is right."

The August 24, 2015 issue of TIME has an article beginning on page 42 that should be of interest to everyone here in CA. It was written by Massimo Calabresi and is entitled: "The Agency That's Got Your Back." The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) is probably one of the more powerful agencies in Washington. It's purpose is to provide the ordinary person with protection from illegal practices that involve any kind of a financial transaction. This can include mortgage loans and credit card practices. It has the authority to level fines and to order changes in practices. By the end of 2012, had ordered Capital One to pay a total of $537 million in fines and refunds for deceptive credit card practices. U.S. Bank has paid a total of $48 million in fines for charging customers for identity protection services that they never received. They have a website that makes it very easy to file a complaint. File one if you believe that you have been wronged.

As Wingnut had challenged Creationists to take it literally Genesis 1:1, I respond as a Creationist to say I do. Even in the defining of heaven as he notes the Hebrew to mean. It bothers me not. The Word allows for this present space-time universe we call home to be created at that point. What people have a hard time fathoming, is how can there be a Created universe as astronomically immense as we have observed it to be, yet be so unpopulated by anything - and the earth being so formless and unpopulated in the manner God speaks of. Creation is just too big, too immense, for everything to be called into existence as God described it. And following that, man is simply convinced by his own observations and (still) limited understanding of the laws of science, that the universe must be far, far older than God says it is. It must be a phased Creation, some will say - creating over in this nook of the universe one time, then over there another time, and had populated Creation substantially, over a huge period of time, before God got around to Creating in this neck of the astronomical woods. Yet, God said He created light apart from any visible source, and populated the cosmos on day 4. Impossible, one might say? Well, God places His integrity on the line with this thought as well, for He says again in His Word that where man deems things to be impossible, all things are possible with God. Luke 18:27; supported by similar statements in Matthew 19:26 and Mark 10:27. Everything in Genesis 1 was created from nothing by God. In a way, even the secular scientists admit this, as their Big Band has everything starting from from an infinitesimally small singularity that, compared to the immense size of the universe, was nothing. From nothing, the singularity exploded, and from that, we have everything...so really, the idea is not that far-fetched as some would tell us. And that is precisely what the Bible tells anyway in Hebrews 11:3 - " By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." Furthermore, whatever God creates, He also maintains. Hebrew 1:3f says, " And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. As by the Word He Creates, so by that same Word He maintains what has been created. So...on Day 1, God says, "Let there be light!"...and there was light. No visible sources we are familiar with. Just like Hebrews 11:3 testifies. Yet God both created that light across His creation...this universe filled with light in transit to earth...and God maintained that light by the power of the Word He created it with. (the same goes for the people and new hearts He creates - but that is a subject for another thread). And yes, that means the only shadow being cast is...is upon the dark side of planet earth...where night has been created. All things are upheld. Nothing is not upheld. All light in our known universe being upheld by the Living God means...our Living God is immensely more bigger, greater, than this immense expanse we call "the universe". He looks at populating that expanse as nothing more than if we were to jot down some things on a Post-It note. That said, the Bible says this really immense God took a very deliberate approach to populating this planet, more so than when He populated the heavens on the 4th day (where billions of galaxies, and untold trillions x trillions of stars, were spoken into existence - and even now maintained - by a single command). Hence, when the galaxies and stars are created by God on the 4th day, there is already enough light in the universe being maintained by God's Word, these created sources of light in the night time sky can be said to have light in transit already. No need to wait for 13.5 billion years or so for the light (as well as the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum) to reach us - when God spoke, it was already in transit to earth. Yet, having a God who does this is anathema to today's science pursuits. Science deems faith and reason mutually exclusive. However, that has not been my experience. From my experience, faith and reasoning go hand in hand. Genesis 1 is far more than just a chapter on origins. It teaches us of God's magnitude and power (as I intimated earlier), what faith really is, and how redemption really works. Should we try to wedge this chapter in to a box to conform to what man's misunderstandings of science are, we short circuit these lessons.

Regarding being rude, I don't anything would regards your last post as rude. It came across as civil. It's easy to be rude or harsh when one is angry. I don't know why a conversation like this should make one angry, but I know it happens. Seems kind of weird to me. Anyway, what I do is, in my first pass, pretty much write what's on my mind, then I go back and edit, looking for things which may be rude or hurtful, and try to cut those out, but I know I still fail, and leave things which are too harsh, but that's what I try to do. Also, one problem is when we communicate in this way, there are no verbal or body clues, so statements *always* come across one or two levels harsher than intended, so I try to take that into account, both when writing and reading. This sort of format is not easy! But it's enjoyable. I've gotten to know a little bit I feel some of the people I talk to, and pray for them, as well as myself, and that helps too. While sometime frustrating, I've found discussing with Samie very useful, as it has helped me a lot in understanding things, and being challenged in areas where I never have been, such as why do we need to believe in Christ, how do we get eternal life, things like this. It's interesting when one needs to try to prove things usually taken for granted, and surely this is a good skill to have as we talk to others not of our faith or religion.

If I had to ask a Sabbath School group of kiddies what God created on the first day, almost all of them would get the right answer. "On the first day god created light". A few adults and "brighter" kids would think, "Hang on, surely God must have created the heaven and the earth too?" I want to explain why the kiddie group is correct. 1) It would only be an ASSUMPTION by the adults that God SURELY must have created the heaven and earth earlier the first day? 2) This assumption is proven incorrect by Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: God does not admire the heaven, the earth and the light, calling them good. God just calls "the light" good. 3) If we assume that God created the heaven and the earth early the first day, then some questions come to my mind. Why did God not do a better job of creating the heaven and earth the first time? Why does this "rush job" leave the earth "without form and void", in darkness, covered with water and thick cloud? Was it necessary to create the earth in such a decrepit state in the first place? 4) If we adopt the natural reading of Genesis that God created the heaven and earth IN THE BEGINNING, without assuming that beginning was on the first day, then we don't have to answer the questions in "3" above. 5) If there was a gap between the creation of heaven and earth and Day 1, that gap can be ANY length of time. Science suggests the original creation (Big Bang) of the heavens occurred 13.75 billion years ago, and that earth only came into existence 5 billion years ago. 6) Consider the possibility that Gen 1 is not addressing the original creation of the world, but rather a week in which God restores/renovates/remakes earth from "without form and void", dark and covered with water, into the earth we live in today. 7) 6000 years ago, in 6 literal days, God replenished the earth, stocking it with modern plants, animals, and man. 8) Maybe a mass extinction occurred which left earth "without form and void". 9) God invokes 4 witnesses to testify on His behalf, as to His greatness. Ps 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. I believe Cosmology (the heavens) testifies to the greatness of God. Hubble telescope looks back 13.2 billion years and can photograph the early cosmos. Every part of the cosmos is fantastic. The other witness is Palaeontology (the firmament) which shows His handiwork through all ages of earth's history. And this testifies to multiple different biomes in earths past. 10) If I had to guess, I would say Gen 1 is describing God recreating the earth after the catastrophe which ended the Pleistocene, at the beginning of what palaeontologists call the Holocene. 11) Both witnesses, Cosmology and Palaeontology, show a far greater God than most religious folks imagine. These two witnesses give us an almost perfectly clear look at what God has been busy with for the last 13.75 billion years, both in connection with the heavens and the earth. 12) Other witnesses to the greatness of God are Science and the Bible. The sciences like biology, microbiology, marine biology etc. tell us how great every every little creature is down to its smallest detail. 13) Ps 104:26-30 perhaps describes a mass extinction and recreation event.... ...there is that leviathan [dinosaurs like plesiosaurus??], whom thou hast made to play therein. 27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. 28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. 29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. [mass extinction??] 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. [regeneration such as Gen 1]. 14) Most arguments with Cosmology, Palaeontology and Science in general are solved when Christians accept that Gen 1:1 did not occur on Day 1. God is renewing earth in one literal week, 6000 years ago, after some mass extinction event left it "without form and void". And He places Adam and Eve on earth, so this is a very important new beginning.

Lol! Expected. Ok. We'll try again some other time.

Because of the fact God inspired Josiah Lich to interpret that prophecy with the year for a day principle to make a proper application - prophetic time is prophetic time, Samie. The God-supported application was made over 140 years ago. But why stop there, Samie? The forty and two months prophecy awaits literal application...as does the 2700 evenings and mornings...because those, also, were written as is. Then again, Samie, so was the appointing of a day for a year in both Numbers 14:34 and in Ezekiel 4:6...the Law and the Prophets...by God Himself. The Trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 are all written in symbols. The times are to be regarded a symbols...just like the others. Otherwise, Samie, you are bound to take the rest of those verses as written: Literal locusts, with human faces, long hair like a woman's, a lion's teeth, a scorpion's tail with stinger, and each insect wearing a crown. So, yes, I take the symbols as they written, and allow the Bible to interpret those symbols as the Lord sees fit. No need to re-invent the wheel where God has already shown the way.

Intermixing literalism with the explicit symbolism present is a certain way to get the prophecy wrong, and arrive at a private interpretation. God was pleased to have Josiah Lich apply it correctly to the events of 1840 (right down to the date), as the run-up for the 2700 day prophecy's termination in 1844. Infidel clubs (that's unbelievers to the uninitiated) all over Europe and America saw that fulfillment to be true - and a significant number of these converted. I'll stick to that for now.

Since the word "men" was explicitly linked to "those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads", then it stands that these men tormented for 5 months are not Christians, but Mohommedan converts from Christianity having to deal with the abuse heaped upon them for being second-class citizens. They sought to save their lives by converting, yet found themselves living a fate much worse than dying for Christ would be.

Pr. Berry is referring to the 2 time prophecies of the 5th and 6th trumpets, and their application by Josiah Lich to the Ottoman Empire's affliction of the Fallen church beginning in 1299, to its ending that affliction and surrendering same by accepting the protection of Christian nations on August 11, 1840. It should be studied by every serious prophecy student, as God used this fulfillment to assure the 2700 day prophecy would end exactly as He said it would, 4 years later in 1844. The various Mohammedan peoples still chaff at this, and though their strength seems to be rising today, I notice that these Middle East nations are still under to protection of professed Christian nations - they appeal to Russia, Britain/America, Germany, and/or France for help and support for their regimes to fight against the surging Mohammedan uprisings...just like the Ottoman Empire did to protect itself from the same kind of uprising from its Egypt province in 1840. God is still ultimately in control. Blessings,

When I left God in the dust... I clung to this picture of GOD! # kicked to the curb