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Did you actually read the article or did you jump to conclusions? If you read the article could you please point out it's shortcomings instead of just taking advantage of the situation as a excuse to get on your soap box.

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From my observation, worldwide constant SUFFERING is perhaps the greatest reason why believers become un-believers. I have been thoughtfully considering this subject for some time now. I think I was pushed towards this because I myself suffer chronic pain, in the form of very frequent migraines. I have seen miracles - several of them - during my life so far, and I couldn't figure out why the LORD wouldn't heal me. I'm left with the nagging question --- Did it really HAVE to be THIS BAD? I'm reading through Richard Rice's book, "Suffering and the Search for Meaning". He really does a good job, summarizing the different views. My husband was born in Germany. The story of his parents highlights the problem of suffering. His parents were engaged when his father was drafted into the German navy at 18 years old. It was the height of WWII. One month out on a German destroyer, and it was captured by a Russian sub. He spent 4 years in a Russian prison camp, often tortured, and came back home weighing 80 pounds, and bald at 22. He had also decided that there IS NO GOD, because, if there IS, then HE is a monster for allowing this!!! He was abusive as a husband, and as a father to his three boys. He ultimately committed suicide at 72. Of course he was suffering from untreated PTSD. There was no treatment back then. My mother-in-law didn't fair any better. Her biological father was killed in a Brown Shirt riot, and her mother abandoned her to the state. She was often abused in foster care. At 16, she was working at a troupe hospital rear the railway. While walking back to the state owned farm where she lived, she was raped and knifed and left for dead at 16. But she never gave up her belief in God. She remained a believer, and attended church well into her 70's. I never got to visit with her enough to know whether she was just "buying fire insurance" or really believed in the goodness of God. I believe that God feels our pain. "In all their affliction, He was afflicted." Therefore my response is to believe that God would NOT have ALLOWED this horrible mess, if it was not absolutely necessary. It's just difficult for me, when my head is pounding, to think, "THIS is necessary."

I will explain WHY I believe that Jesus was born at the Feast of Tabernacles. There were too many priests, by the time of King David, for all of them to minister in the Temple. So King David divided the priesthood into 24 courses of elders. Men from each "course" came up for two weeks, and then returned home. At festivals all of the priests came to work at the Temple. (I Chronicles Cpt 24) John the Baptist's father Zechariah was of the clan of Abijah. (Luke 1:5) That clan came up the middle two weeks of June (on our calendar). So Zechariah would have returned home, and Elizabeth would have conceived approximately the third week of June. Which means - she would have been in her sixth month, when the angel appeared to Mary of Nazareth, Elizabeth's cousin. That would put the conception of Jesus approximately the third week in December. Hmmmmm. So Dec 25th may have been His conception - but NOT His birth. Nine months from the 3rd week in December, would be the 3rd week in September - which would likely be the Feast of Tabernacles. The prophecy promised that Messiah would come to "tabernacle with us". The Romans took advantage of the Feast - when every Israelite male would journey anyway (to Jerusalem), to hold their "census". If you really want to delve into the topic, here's a few website articles: http://biblelight.net/sukkoth.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am0uv5k-YxM http://119ministries.com/sunburned-119-ministries http://www.truthontheweb.org/easter.htm http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t020.html http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter1.htm

Reddogs, I wish I had your spiritual insight. I just don't see it that way. Just because it is your opinion does not make it true. If you get a blessing out of the same liturgy that our church has held for the past 150 years, by all means continue in that path! I don't particularly feel blessed with the same liturgy, music and sermon material with which I have been fed for over 50 years. I believe there is more to my spiritual experience than being a tea-totalling, Sabbath-keeping vegetarian looking for people who are bigger sinners than I am so I can feel good about myself. Suffice it to say that your revelation is not my revelation. I have pretty strict spiritual standards; they're just not the same as yours. God has me on a different "narrow path" than you, because we are two different people with different issues. In the end, I pray that both paths lead to the Kingdom. Of course there is sin in the church! Are you implying that, as a church member, you have eliminated all sin from your life? If so, you are the first person to do so in 2000 years! Since when does being a believer deem you free from temptation and sin? If there was no sin, there would be no need for a Savior! SInce when is the church a refuge for the saints? I thought is was a place for sinners to come and meet Jesus and be saved. If we didn't allow (indeed LOVE) sinners; there would be no one at church (except maybe you and reddogs). Who of us is qualified to say one sin is worse than the next? Any sin earns you death. You are not consigned to a deeper death for breaking the Sabbath than you are for gossiping. Sin is sin. Period. We ALL need a Savior or we will die the second death. Period.

I read the article, and agree with the author, and you, too, if you agree also. It's not difficult to see that a Messenger from YHVH was sent to Daniel's three friends to protect them from the intense flames by surrounding them with a force field, one might suppose. While some Messengers seem to be more human-like, others tend to contain glowing metallic elements with brilliant light emanating from the head. Christ actually did not exist before NT times, I believe, rather, it was the Father who said much later, using Christ's voice, that "Before Abraham was, I AM". Some may think that EGW is the infallible prophet of God, which is exactly what her PR team wanted, but it's better to focus on the Scriptures rather than misguided human interpretations. I suppose that it is not critical whether or not to believe that the Son of Man or someone else rescued the three worthies from incineration in a rather large crematorium.

The best answer is in reading both chapters "Why was sin permitted" and "The Origen of Evil" from the books Patriarchs and Prophets and Great Controversy, along with the chapter "It is Finished" in Desire of Ages. (I wish that our church would make a little booklet with those 3 chapters, maybe with a fourth chapter on Gethsemane in Desire of Ages). The term Milk and Honey were ancient geographic terms. Honey or preserved foods indicated an agricultural life style. A permanent home. plenty of food (you make the "honey" out of the left over food after you ate) enough money to make an upper class of landowners and a lower working class. This causes leisure time, A life that is predictable, easy and exciting. Milk came from mostly goats, kept out in the desert, moving around looking for food. Not knowing if you will be eating from your garden or plow it under and try again next year. Moving from place to place. Living out in the desert. A life unpredictable, hard and lonely. Now in the land of honey you risk loosing site on your need for God and also that is where the invading armies pass through. The question is not "will disaster come" but "When will it come" While in the land of milk you are always dependent of God and you are safe from the invading armies. The pagans try to appease the gods of honey to bless them and the gods of milk to leave them alone. The God of the Bible claims to be the God of Milk and Honey. A God of the predictable, easy and exciting times but also of the unpredictable, hard and lonely times. God is with us despite having to allow evil to play out. He knows our pains and fears. He offers healing.

In the case of this poster..... ....classical avoidance!!!

My mother and father in-law, have been dead for many years. My husband does NOT mind my telling their stories. I used them as examples of how individuals respond differently to suffering. I personally have NOT abandoned my belief in God's love. I DO believe that He can, and does, and will, bring about healing, in spite of the chaos which sin has brought. What I'm saying is that suffering seems to me a primary reason WHY many folks STOP believing in a loving God - OR - refuse to believe at all. I'm looking for ways to reach those who have suffered, (or observed suffering) and have either LOST SIGHT of God's love, or CANNOT BELIEVE in a God of love, BECAUSE OF the suffering.

I disagree. I do NOT believe that God will delete our memories. Just like I remember the pain of surgery, I don't still FEEL it. All of us have been abused and wounded - to some degree - by others. It will take many, many years in a safe environment to HEAL all of the defensive thinking and responses, which have resulted from what we have SUFFERED. Why else would it take 1000 years?

To transition from my faith being in my head, to my faith being in my relationship to the world.... and in my relationship to myself as a sinner is a huge leap. Jesus was holy yet fully identified with, and related to, and deeply connected with every human being however deep in the suffering of sin. Only In Christ and through Him can this happen in our lives. Jesus wants to be the one who is seen and is experienced in our sinful hearts and in our communities, in the church and out of the church. Enough of preaching to the sanctified choir. Jesus pour himself out on a lost world, full of prayer and loaded with the power of divine love. We must take hold of heaven and let heaven take hold of us. Let us live in God's presence on the Sabbath, and let God's presence in us reach out to the world all week long. It takes power, and love to be available to enter into labor for the souls of postmodern contemporary society in all it's special wounds and conditions. We Must have more of Jesus, His wisdom, tact, mercy, hope, His intimacy with His father. Of ourselves we can do nothing. True spirituality is hated by the sanctimonious. Jesus was hated for mingling with the publicans and the less than pharisaical.

After reading these accouunts I went to bed. During the night I saw in a dream how we had all been invited on a tour to some beautiful islands. There was much singing and rejoicing. Those who had purchased additional oil for the voyage could on Sabbath sail further to an island where there was a better connection so we were able to receive a greater blessing as we learned more about a rich relationship with our Lord. Those deriding the special Sabbath celebration were cut off from the special blessing and the enemy had easier access to those people with his temptations. Why did I have this dream?

While I still feel the same, I came on too strong and do apologize to all for that part of my last comment. Or at least for the unChristlike feelings I had.

I think the whole flood story is one of God's interference to protect those committed to Him, in the midst of chaos which ensues because the world rejects God. God is the source of "life" and "order". Without God's input of divine energy, every becomes chaotic. Everything slows down, runs down, and breaks down. (Second Law of Thermodynamics) The scientists say that our whole universe will eventually cease to exist. They are looking at things as they appear now. They are not taking into consideration the input of divine creative energy to restore order on the earth, and in our dimension/universe. Here are two verses that - to me - tell us the WHY, concerning the flood. I don't believe that God actually slammed the asteroid into the earth, causing the flood. But I do believe that God pulled back His spirit - the input of divine energy, and the heavenly bodies began to loose their ordered synchronized paths. Which allowed an asteroid to plow into earth. Genesis 6:5 “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” Job 21:14 [Speaking of those who lived just prior to the Flood of Noah] “Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways” (KJV). Job 22:17 “They said to God, ‘Leave us alone! What can the Almighty do to us?’” (NIV) God set everything in balance, and then held everything in balance. When the people of earth told the LORD “Depart from us!”, the LORD honored their wish. He withdrew His Spirit from this physical dimension except for a boat with eight people aboard (and a whole lot of animals). Entropy set in. Everything began to go out of balance. Noah and his family emerged to find the world completely altered. Before the flood the crystalline firmament protected them from damaging rays, but from that day forward those rays would “age” them much more rapidly. Those rays coupled with poor nutrition, and consumption of animal foods, weaked their immune systems, shortened their lives and caused mutations of their DNA. Starving animals became carnivorous. Scavengers multiplied. The earth has continued on towards sure and certain “death” since the flood of Noah’s day. And the LORD allowed all of this. King David wrote, “The days of our lives are seventy years; and if by reason of strength they are eighty years, yet their boast is only labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off”(Psa 90:10).

Congratulations!!!!

WHY do people refuse to believe God exists, or reject belief in God? That's assuming they have encountered some evidence for His existence, or heard some testimony from a believer. 1. They want to do something which God has forbidden. It's easier to keep doing what is forbidden, IF you don't believe HE exists. 2. They were taught from childhood that there is no God, or were convinced by college professors that "science" is irrefutable, and confirms evolution. 3. A Christian (so called) acted in a manner which caused one terrible pain, either emotional or physical. 4. They witnessed horrendous suffering - of "innocent" people, after hearing of God's love and His omnipotence. 5. They were worn down by chronic pain, after hearing all those Bible promises of comfort and healing. If we understand WHAT turns people away, we may be able to amend our own behavior, or our preaching, so as to "save some".

I have thought about this along with a related subject (Has God promised more than He could deliver?} over the years. Here are some thoughts: 1) The human condition and all the promises of God are book-ended or framed by two Biblical truths, (a) God's original creation was very good, Gen 1. As a result of sin, that paradise was lost. The ground was cursed, pain and death became the human experience, Gen 3. (b) Someday, that paradise will be restored where there will be no more pain, crying, or death. No matter how healthily you will still die. And how we die is not specified. It could by accident, old age, or a slow painful cancer death. 2) Another piece of that frame is the law of cause and effect. Defy the law of gravity by jumping off a tall building and the result is pretty certain, 100 prayers not withstanding. Eat foods that interfere with circulation and the result could a stroke, or a heart attack or something else. In my line of work, my observation is that many if not most human ailments/suffering are self-inflicted. 3) Innocent bystander/collateral damage. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time. 4) Refining aspect of hardships/trials/suffering. Not popular concept, but the Bible presents this nonetheless. 5) We are caught between two warring supernatural forces. If you choose God's side, Jesus guaranteed that you will have tribulation. 6) Hebrews 11:39-40 guarantees that all the promises of God cannot/will not be realized in this life. 7) Nothing can happen to the believer without God's permission, so in the meantime I just have to trust my God.

To start with we first must define what self-defense is: 1. Dictionary.com: n. “the act of defending one’s person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant.” 2. Law.com: n. “the use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger.” … “The force used in self-defense may be sufficient for protection from apparent harm (not just an empty verbal threat) or to halt any danger from attack, but cannot be an excuse to continue the attack or use excessive force.” It is not a lack of faith or a sin to carry a weapon for self-defense or use it in self-defense. Yes, I have faith that God will provide and keep me safe and if it is my time I will see him in Heaven. Just as when I'm sick I go to the doctor, or when a small fire breaks out I call 911 and use my fire extinguisher, or when I get in the car I put on my seatbelt. I use the tools that are available to me. Most people need to study the principles set forth in the Bible. It is written and the Bible is very clear that life is VERY precious and we are REQUIRED to do what we can to protect it. Some quick examples: Abraham with his more than 318 trained servants recovering Lot... David and his men leaving Ziklag to recover their families... the thief breaking into your house and dies at your hands his blood is not on your hands... David as a boy carried the equivalent of a 44 magnum... Nehemiah armed by family all the people... the store of Queen Ester and the people defending themselves... You find these principles in both the old and new testaments of the Bible. Not to mention Peter wasn't scolded for using the sword the Jesus himself told them they should buy if they didn't have one just hour earlier. He did told "permit even this" because he had to be taken and to die to save us. I have spent MANY hours in study and research on this subject and have presented what I have found to several pastors, elders, and others challenging them to find where I'm wrong. To date I have been given only suggestions regarding changing certain words... and have been told they can't find anything in in the Bible contrary to what I presented. Keep in mind God, his laws and principles never change. Nothing in the Bible contradict itself and if we think it does we are reading something wrong. The use of a firearm should be the LAST option we choose to use but it is still a tool that we have been given the same as swords, spears, bows,... Warning, be careful and not be guilty of the sin of presumption, which according to the Bible is a "great sin". If you choose not to use a tool available to you because "God will take care", you are guilty of the sin of presumption. A firearm is nothing more than a tool, just as a fire extinguisher or a seat belt that I have available to me. When used properly they all SAVE lives. Evil will exist until Christ returns, we have to do what we can to share Gods' Love and desire to save ALL. But the Bible is clear we are to defend those around us and ourselves for it is written you are "worse than an infidel" if you do not. Yes, "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends". We all should be willing and ready to die to keep others safe. This subject is way to large to cover in a post like this but I challenge you to open Gods word and study it. I know my eyes were opened and some things I was taught as a child are NOT Biblical and were uncomfortable (not politically correct). Our goal is to be like Jesus and follow ALL of the commandments of GOD. Remember it is written that there is NO TRUTH in those who teach contrary to the word of GOD. This includes those in and out of leadership positions. It is not a lack of faith or a sin to carry a weapon for self defense. Yes, I have faith that God will provide and keep me safe (may require action on my part) and if it is my time I will see him in Heaven.

Biblical support for taking life in self defense? It comes right out of the Law: Exodus 22:2 “If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed." NKJV Not only does this relate to defense of one's person and family from the thief - it also relates to the defense of property from the thief. God does not regard the defense against criminal activity resulting in the death of the criminal, to be murder. It does NOT say the homeowner must leave the premises and to escape confrontation or the necessity of self defense. Active defense of life and property is presumed to be an expected, natural reaction to the criminal activity of the thief, in the tenor of this verse. This same tone is taken in Exodus 21:12-14. The words "God delivered into his hand" in verse 13 is the language of a defender prevailing. It is the same phraseology as used by David just before he slew Goliath: the death is a justified self-defense against an aggressor. Numbers 35:16-18; 20-21 lays out what God regards as murder: having enmity in the heart for the person and premeditating their death in that hatred. Accidental death and death resulting from the pushing away of someone without enmity (aka, a self -defense action - verses 20, 21) are NOT regarded as breaches of the 6th Commandment against murder. I read earlier in this thread about Peter carrying a sword (Luke 22:36-38). Just a bit earlier that evening, Jesus instructed His disciples the time was soon to come when they would need to go and sell their cloaks to buy a sword if they had no sword (verse 36). When Peter pointed out there were two swords already present (verse 38)...THAT precise time was the time to tell Peter NOT to take up his sword if Christ was merely speaking allegorically. But Christ wasn't speaking so...and He knew what Peter was going to be doing to Malchus in a few hours. YET - Christ didn't tell Peter NOT to carry in defense of life. He said instead that "those would be enough". Christ did not command that self-defense was sin...else why would Christ declare that legions unfallen angels could be instantly made available to defend Him? Christ dispensed with the expected right of self-defense, because the immediate context of God's plan of salvation required it. That He could - and would - if necessary is evidenced when His Divinity flashed through, momentarily stunning His would-be captors. Being noble, peaceable, and blameless does not preclude righteous indignation and justified defense against evil and criminality. Smurf, you wanted the Biblical basis and support for taking a life in self-defense...there it is. Black and white. Yes, this goes against the pacifist grain of the usual Adventist culture; yet, Christ Himself told Moses these things 1500 years before He walked this earth as one of us. His testimony is not going to contradict the principles already laid down in the Old Testament. Blessings,

Why were the COI armed? Why did the nation of Israel have a standing army? Why did God use the ancient judges to deliver the Israelites from their persecuters by the force of arms? I see no Biblical condemnation of Israel for having an army. And, David, their most famous warrior, was called "a man after God's own heart". If God really sees the defending of home and loved ones by force as sinful why did He call David a man after His own heart? Why does not the Bible condemn David as being outside the will of God in defending the nation of Israel? Do you really believe the God of the NT and the OT are that different? Did God Himself say He "changes not"? Why did God use force to kick the devil out of heaven if the use of force is sinful? To conflate the issue of self-defense and the idea of spiritual warfare is a logical fallacy.

And aside from not assuming everyone with the SDA moniker means "safe": 1) never EVER post online when you will be away from your home 2) do not post your date of birth, where you were born, or where you live 3) if you post obituaries, always edit out the names of children and where they live 4) do not post photos of your children with their names 5) do not post the name(s) of your parents or siblings

Just for clarification, and I told a member I would respond publicly. I know some have had struggles in the past and crossed lines, truth is, we all have, some got caught and others did not. Our concern is what happens in here now and in the future. If someone approaches you for fund raising, or private things that they should not be asking for, Please contact Gregory. I know in the past we have raised money for members in need, and some of them were. Some of them according to reports were NOT. AND we paid for their week long parties. Still others sought after widows for funds to "Fill desperate needs". None of the above fill the mission of this forum. Thanks to Gregory for his comments and wanting to protect people here.