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that's an interesting analogy.... but, actually, the swastika was a symbol of good luck, long before Hitler selected it as the symbol for the Nazi flag. My great grandmother had a brooch with that design from the 1870s. That analogy demonstrates how original symbols, be it flags or holidays or anything else, can be taken over and used by subsequent generations or cultures to mean something else. The original history of symbols doesn't necessarily connote the same purpose or meaning in current usage, for example, Christmas trees, or wreaths, or Easter eggs.

Unity, One more thing- If your "name" denotes your character, let's try to focun on things that indeed unify us rather than divide us. Unity is not the same thing as uniformity. We can all be united in our love of Jesus, and our desire to spread His good news; But that doesn't mean we all have to do it the same way. For example, the way most African SDA's worship (drums and clapping for musical accompaniment) might not be attractive to us North American white folks. Similarly, the worship music that is a blessing to younger people may not fit the sense of propriety of some of us older folks. Some people are more comfortable hanging on to the rules of a specific denomination, where others look for a unity of brotherhood among all Christians - regardless of denomination or worship style. As long as we both believe the good news of Christ's redemption of those who believe that He did a good enough job on the cross to save us, many of the things that divide us are just a personal preference (i.e., non-salvational). As an SDA, I am conviced that the Sabbath is deeply intertwined with my salvation; however, I cannot in good conscience imply to others that they are lost unless they keep "my" Sabbath. If they are truly born again believers, the Holy Spirit can bring them to that conclusion if necessary. My impression of TOP is that their priority is bringing people to Jesus. If bringing them to Jesus includes bringing them into Adventism, so much the better.

The only weather to concern us, would be at Bethlehem, which was about 5 miles from Jerusalem. There was an ancient site, at Bethlehem, where sheep FOR SACRIFICE were raised, many to be sold later to pilgrims coming to the Temple. How amazing that God's lamb, would be born there - with the other lambs for sacrifice.

We find Jesus celebrating Hanukkah, which was a new holiday after the Old Testament closes. This is an example to us that as long as we are using things for him and to know about and share him and it's not specifically against keeping his law (such as replacing the Sabbath with Sunday) it that he will bless us. Also in Jesus' celebration and message of Hanukkah, he focused on the joys of being together with family and the pain of loosing a loved one and to trust that he is the resurrection and the life and that even though if he was here our loved one would not have died, yet no matter how late he is, no matter how long our loved one was lying in the tomb and decomposing, The resurrection and the life is coming to raise them up and reunite us!!!! I also see in Jesus placing the focus on the joys of family and the pain of separation at this season as a prophecy that he saw that this season would be important for us in relating to each other and the pain of the empty spot in the holiday table. Just as God had the Hebrews eat the lamb and unleavened bread on the same night that the people in Jericho and the rest of Canaan were eating lamb and unleavened bread and did not pick another night of the year; so Jesus out of all the year and all the Old Testament feasts he could have chosen from, picked a later holyday from this very season to stress the importance of family and sympathies with the sadness of empty places in family gatherings. Too bad we didn't have these people around to warn Jesus that this is the worst time of year for him to have done this because it is too close to Christmas.

We go to church wearing our smiley faces, but deep down inside many of us are walking wounded, physically and/or emotionally, something that mere church attendance can never cure. It was Christ's one-on-one encounters that changed lives and gave people a new hope in becoming a part of the Kingdom. It was his message of change that contradicted the beliefs of the day, and only by discarding those old beliefs could one truly understand the Kingdom.

I am saying that all the talk about God never did me much good other than sound good. And it was/is appreciated. It wasn't until I started talking to God, not just in prayer which I do all the time, but talk to Him when I'm angry, hurt, take the hate and disgust I'm feeling and talk to Him about it....that it trumps all the talking about Him. I never learned that in church. What I learned from church is play nicey-nice, act like everything is alright, even to God. Like He don't know the anger and disgust I'm feeling towards something! Nor did I ever learn to play nicey-nice as I find that, and the people who play it, disgusting. It is an experience tho, not something that can be explained.

My father had chronic migraines and chronic depression. (It's a long story, with an abusive father, and the loss of three fingers on his right hand when he was 12.) Back then, there WERE no SSRI's or anything else really, to treat or prevent. He self-medicated with alcohol. The alcohol - over time, took hold, and he could not free himself. My father had moved to Mexico after his license was taken here in the US, for too many DUI. I had not seen him in several years. About six months before he died, he sent a letter asking me to record some of the hymns I used to sing for church. I shamefully admit that I never got around to it. Anyway. Three months before he died, I was absolutely, overwhelmingly convicted to pray for my father, and to "fight for him". So - twice a day - I would pray for him, begging the LORD to create a bubble of protection around him, because I was quite convinced that the demons were holding him fast. I "commanded" in the name of Jesus - as we do in spiritual "warfare". After three months of this, I asked the LORD to give me a clue as to what was happening. My brother called at 4AM the next morning. "Well, Dad's gone," was all he said. "There's more to it," I said. "Oh, you'll love this," he replied. "Dad was at a minister's house. They were having Bible studies (sarcastically). Dad suddenly grabbed his chest, and keeled off the chair." I asked my brother for the minister's phone number. I called later and talked with him. He told me that Dad had indeed been coming to Bible studies. My brother (especially) and my sister too, have never been able to forgive Dad, for the pain he caused us. (They are NOT believers.) My Dad was not mean or abusive - just neglectful. I HAVE been able to forgive him - gladly. I think largely because I understand the pain of chronic migraines. I believe that I will see my Dad someday - in the Kingdom. The LORD allowed me to participate in the victory - for my Dad. I am VERY AWARE that "There but for the grace of God, go I". I write this as an example of HOW we can help someone who is suffering.

A friend shared a video discussing a friend of hers who is suffering from cancer. I believe representatives from this lifestyle center came to a church that I visited one Sabbath while I was there. Four thousand dollars is in reality not much. I know the Lord can provide, if it is His will. Please pray that if it is His will, He will provide the funds needed, or that He will heal Myrtle, or that if it is not His will to heal her, that He will at least ease her pain, or use it to draw her closer to Him, and that whatever happens, even if it is not what we want, that we will accept His will. May His will be done, whatever it is. I know He can heal her. I know He can provide. He is able, and He is good. Whatever His decision is, is the right decision. If you can find it in your heart to give to a stranger, will you please donate something, too? Even a little bit, a few dollars here and there from many people can add up to a lot, so even if you feel like you cannot give enough, if everyone who might feel that way gave what little they could, I believe they can reach their goal. www.gofundme.com/ttg24aac Here is their fund raising page on Gofundme. If you help, and even if you cannot help, please share this link with others. Share it on your facebook, google, twitter, wherever. Share it publicly so that many can see it. I am sure we can raise the funds if it is God's will. I know He can provide. She needs the funds by January 11, which is my birthday, and it would be a wonderful birthday present for me to see all the funds provided. Please keep her and this situation in prayers. Thank you.

Robert Folkenberg, Former Adventist Church President, Dead at 74 He used innovation and technology and ShareHim to share Jesus in new ways. POSTED DECEMBER 24, 2015 By Andrew McChesney, Adventist Review, with ANN staff Robert S. Folkenberg, an innovative church administrator and mission advocate who led the Seventh-day Adventist Church for nine years, died Dec. 24 after a lengthy struggle with cancer. He was just days from his 75th birthday. Folkenberg felt that Adventists had an exciting message to share and the Internet was a great way to expand the church’s reach. The Adventist Church, he believed, could use the Internet to provide information, training, and experiences that better demonstrated the global aspect of its mission. Folkenberg on the cover of the July 8, 1990, issue of the Adventist Review after his election as General Conference president. He pushed the church forward with new technology during his tenure as president of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists from 1990 to 1999 and brought CompuServe, a precursor to the World Wide Web, into use within the church, making Seventh-day Adventists the first denomination to use such technology. “Elder Folkenberg was filled with creative and innovative ideas regarding church work and evangelism,” General Conference president Ted N.C. Wilson said. “As president of the General Conference, he strongly nurtured the media aspect of outreach for church activities and evangelism as well as pioneered the use of Internet for communication within the church structure.” Folkenberg also had a great passion for mission, the driving force of his ministry. During his time as world church president, he helped start the Global Mission initiative, which has been responsible for establishing thousands of new congregations around the world. “We could have not asked for a greater support than Folkenberg for Global Mission,” said Michael L. Ryan, the first director of Global Mission and a former general vice president of the General Conference. Ryan said he remembers Folkenberg often saying, “Participation in Global Mission is not optional.” “Elder Robert Folkenberg was visible, involved, and passionate about proclaiming the hope of the gospel in places where Jesus name was not known,” he said. “It mattered to him personally that the church was organized and focused on mission and that every member made being Christ's ambassador their top priority.” A Life of Mission Robert Stanley Folkenberg was born on Jan. 1, 1941, to missionary parents in Santurcee, Puerto Rico. He went to school in Puerto Rico until the fourth grade before finishing elementary school in Cuba. He entered high school in California and graduated from Milo Adventist Academy in Oregon in 1958. Folkenberg first attended Atlantic Union College in Massachusetts and then Newbold College in England before graduating from Andrews University in Michigan with a degree in ministry in 1962. In 1963 he completed a master’s degree in New Testament theology at Andrews University. Folkenberg returning to the United States from his studies at Newbold College in 1960. Folkenberg was an avid pilot. He secured a single and multi-engine airline transport pilot rating, commercial helicopter and sea rating, and flew more than 2,000 hours, the majority of which were in Central America and the Caribbean. Folkenberg dedicated much of his life to service in the Inter-American Division. Serving first as a pastor in Panama (1966-68), he later became stewardship director of the Panama Conference (1968), president of the Honduras Mission (1970), secretary (1974) and later president of the Central American Union (1975). In 1980 he became assistant to the president for the Inter-American Division. He served in North America as president of the Carolina Conference (1985-90) before being elected General Conference president in 1990. Folkenberg developed lifelong friendships among the people with whom he lived and worked. Libna Stevens, assistant communications director for the Inter-American Division, called Folkenberg “bigger than life” when she first met him at the age of 7 in her home in Costa Rica. “He would fly his plane from Guatemala to oversee the Adventist college my dad was managing in Alajuela, Costa Rica,” Stevens said. “He would come to our home for breakfast many times before he left on his trip. He loved yuca (cassava root) and would just get right in the kitchen to sauté onions while my mom was cooking. He did that every time with a big grin on his face.” She spoke fondly of his “funniest laugh” and kind affection. “He would always take time to talk to my sister and me,” she said. Hilda Matar-Montero, a staff member at the Miami-based Inter-American Division since 1977, recalled how Folkenberg had found the time in his busy schedule to officiate her wedding several months after his election as General Conference president. "He was a true friend," Matar-Montero said. “When I asked him to marry my husband and me, he told me, ‘Hilda, tell me when you need me to be there, and I will arrange my trips around your wedding.’ Sure enough, he took the time to marry us.” Matar-Montero kept in touch with Folkenberg over the years and most recently spoke with him by phone on Dec. 9. “I told him how much we were all praying for him,” she said. “He told me, ‘Time is so short Hilda, but I am ready. I love the Inter-American Division, and I love all the people I know.’ I look forward to meeting him in heaven.” Folkenberg died at 1:35 p.m. Thursday, Dec. 24, at his home in Winter Haven, Florida. Folkenberg’s final days were filled with peace, said his daughter, Kathi Folkenberg Jensen, a registered nurse. “Today when we were caring for him he smiled,” she wrote on Facebook on Dec. 21. “When my mom asked why he was smiling, he whispered he's happy because he is at peace. Praising the Lord for my Dad, his strong faith in His Savior, and the blessed assurance of salvation we can have because of Jesus and His sacrifice for us!” Folkenberg is survived by his wife, Anita Emmerson, along with their two children, Robert Jr. and Kathi, and six grandchildren. Robert Folkenberg Jr. serves as president of the Adventist Church’s Chinese Union Mission. A memorial service will be held at 4 p.m. on Jan. 10 at the Avon Park Seventh-day Adventist Church in Avon Park, Florida, his son said by e-mail. In lieu of flowers, the family welcomes donations to ShareHim, a mission and evangelistic initiative created by Folkenberg to train people and local churches to hold evangelistic series in their communities. ShareHim accepts online contributions at sharehim.org. Sharing Him to the End Folkenberg did not believe being an Adventist was a spectator sport and spoke often about what the Bible said regarding salvation. A favorite verse that he cited often was Romans 10:9, “If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (NKJV). Throughout his lifelong work in the Adventist Church, Folkenberg put an emphasis on “confessing” Christ — through technology, through mission and through the local churches with which he worked. After resigning as General Conference president in 1999, Folkenberg developed ShareHim, which has been active throughout the United States and around the world, including in an evangelistic series that resulted in 30,000 baptisms in Zimbabwe last May. “Elder Folkenberg spent part of his early ministry in frontline evangelistic activity and the last part of his ministry in direct evangelistic outreach through ShareHim,” Wilson said. “Evangelism and the proclamation of the three angels’ messages were the passion of his life.Whether he was in frontline or administrative work, his heart was in helping people know Christ and then become an active participant in the mission of the church. His early ministry as part of an evangelistic team gave him the foundation for the rest of his life.” The Frederick Seventh-day Adventist Church in Maryland caught a glimpse of Folkenberg’s passion for ShareHim when he visited the church several months ago. The church had decided to participate in ShareHim, and Folkenberg wanted to help members implement the program even though he had just been told that his cancer had recurred, church administrator Gail Boyer said. “We had members who responded not only to doing a church-held campaign but also to doing a ShareHim series in their homes,” Boyer said. “His love for the Lord was contagious.” Jeremiah Weeks, executive director of ShareHim, said he had experienced that passion every day since teaming up with Folkenberg at ShareHim in 2005. “Bob’s legacy is no doubt his passion, drive, and commitment to the spreading of the Advent hope,” Weeks said. “He believed that every one of us has a personal, nontransferable duty to share our faith with those around us. He didn’t think for a moment that merely being a ‘silent witness’ would cut it. He knew that we have to get up and do something, and that sharing the hope we have impacts both the salvation of others and of ourselves.” Jan Paulsen, who was elected following Folkenberg’s resignation in 1999 and served as General Conference president from 1999 to 2010, described Folkenberg as “a man of ideas, high energy, and a congenial spirit” whose lasting legacy would be his love for mission. “He assigned responsibilities to his colleagues and then allowed them space and time to carry out their task,” Paulsen said. “Micro-management was not his style. I found him easy to relate to, both as a colleague and a leader. “Since he left office he continued to let his energies and creative ideas develop and flow into the life and mission of the church, as seen particularly in the ShareHim program, which has been a blessing to our church widely and for which he will be long remembered.

Unity, Speaking for myself, I wouldn't call you a Pharisee. Jesus' rant on the Pharisees wasn't because they were strict adherents to the Law, it was because of their hypocrisy. You don't strike me as a hypocrite; it's more like an idealist. I may be wrong, but my guess is that you are young. If you are convicted by your theology, by all means stay with it. But keep an open mind. Not everyone believes like you and reddogs. If you are offended by movements like TOP, by all means stay away. I would never "judge" or "condemn" you for your religious fervor; I was os the same persuasion as you for decades. It rarely made me feel closer to Jesus or "saved". I was always worried that I wasn't doing enough to please God. When I gave up on trying to be "perfect", and turned my life over to Jesus, trusting Him to save me (I wasn't doing a good job of "adding merit"). When I focused on what Jesus has done for me rather than what I should be doing for Jesus, my life indeed started to change for the better and continues to do so. I still have issues; but Jesus and I are working on them together rather than me doing it myself. I happen to believe that Jesus wants us as we are; not how we ought to be. Indeed, there are churches and movements out there that are "pushing the envelope" as far as traditional theology. They are questioning all the traditional answers. They are truly exploring faith. It can get messy; and people will make mistakes. I know I have. But I pray that Jesus keeps me on the narrow path to the Kingdom; which includes respect for other people's walks. Merry Christmas!

The above is exactly right. There is nothing wrong with having a worship service on Sunday. What is wrong is substituting Sunday for the Sabbath. In my many years as a clergyperson, I have, in working for the Federal government, preached more often on Sunday morning than on Saturday morning. I kept the Sabbath, as much as I in my human way could do. But, I never kept Sunday as the Sabbath.

We MIGHT be able to use the same argument for December 25. In the articles that Biblical Archaeology Review and Bible Review has been quite good at publishing over recent years, and which is also starting to cross over into other articles and sermons and programs. Some of the scholars looking at this evidence are saying that there is no historical evidence of December 25 being a special date for the Pagans until the time of Constantine when they moved their different important days around this date to this date specifically. This may or may not be true but if it is true then Christians had December 25 first. In the Bible we find Sabbath from the beginning, but it was not fully revealed and understood as Sabbath until the exodus. So it is not what came first but how it is used. Remember Mrs. White's counsel about Sunday Laws, that we are then to give Sunday to the Lord and use it for a day of evangelism and meetings. Sunday keeping is clearly paganism, but the problem with Sunday keeping is how it is used in place of the Sabbath. We can do special things on Sunday just as long as we remember that Sabbath is Sabbath. While not sure just when it started, it appears that the early church went to Synagogue on Sabbath and kept the Sabbath, but on Sunday got together to study the life of Christ and writings of Paul and things that were more specifically of interest to Christians as opposed to the Jewish/Christian topics of Sabbath worship in the Synagogue. The problem came when the Sunday get together started to replace the Sabbath.

If each person at "church" unloaded all the emotion from their hearts to everyone they came into contact with, I fear there would be serious overload. It would hinder the smooth running of the service, and the "learning experience". We have social customs for a reason. They CAN seem very constraining, or useless, when one is really suffering, but they do serve a purpose. Unloading personal struggles and emotions is best done in a small group, or one-to-one with a friend or counselor. The forum can SEEM like a small group, in the way we share things. I DO AGREE that one should be honest with God, and talk to him in a REAL way. I remember - many years ago - sitting in my car literally yelling at the LORD. I was angry and confused. I read the promises that HE would put HIS spirit within me, and cause me to walk in His statutes and to keep HIS Law. I read the promises of healing. Well then - why was I still sinning????? And why had I NOT been healed???? God did not give up on me, or reject me - not in the least!! He loves that kind of REAL communication. What I came to realize, was that I was getting in His way. I kept TRYING - in my own efforts, to "stop sinning". What I had to do was to give up - to realize that I could have no part in overcoming EXCEPT to pray and believe. As for healing - well - that may not come in this life. I believe it's a test of my faith. But He WILL give me the strength to endure - to hold on to faith. And as I said before - if I had not inherited my father's migraines, I may not have been able to understand him, so that I could readily forgive him. As for talking ABOUT God - wow!! - without all of the wonderful commentaries, and without the Bible itself (which talks ABOUT God), I would not have come to understand much about Him. I "met" Jesus, on a sidewalk in Wichita Falls, Texas, one afternoon back in 1980, but that "meeting" - that experience - did not tell me much ABOUT Him. For that I had to read - a LOT. I agree, that sermons do NOT help much, when I have a migraine. I can't even stand to listen to music. I just want the pain to STOP. When a person is suffering great emotional pain, such as a divorce, or the death of a loved one, a sermon is NOT of much help. At those times, just the presence of a friend - especially one who has felt what we are feeling - THAT is greatly helpful.

I should also have mentioned that the REASON for the overflowing of travelers at Bethlehem (5 miles from Jerusalem), so that every inn was full, was BECAUSE of the Feast. Every Israelite male was commanded to appear at the Temple three times during the year - for Passover, for Pentecost, and for Tabernacles. (Presence at Jerusalem for the Day of Atonement was not required, nor for the Blowing of Trumpets). We would assume that Joseph was attempting to reach Jerusalem in time for the Feast of Booths. Estimates are that more than a million people swelled Jerusalem for the Feasts, by the time of Jesus. Crowded indeed! At the Feast of Booths, every Israelite family was to construct a "booth" or "tabernacle" (temporary shelter) for themselves, in which they would eat their meals together for the 7 days of the Feast. They were to decorate it with tree boughs and flowers. The "booth" must have 3 sides and a roof. In Genesis 33:17, Jacob built "booths" for his cattle. Genesis 33:17 But Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built himself a house, and made booths for his cattle; therefore the place is called Succoth. (Gen NRS) How totally perfect that Jesus was born in a "booth" (a sukka). Joseph and Mary truly DID share their "booth" with God.

Saturday is a day that has major religious significance and may require that one attend a Temple and worship. It is a special day dedicated to a number of pagan gods. [NOTE: I will list a URL that will mention two such gods.] In addition to attending a Temple, one may be required to wear black and to eat less and more simple food. For more on this see: http://londonsrimurugan.org/pdf/EachDayoftheWeek.pdf Yet, we SDAs follow this pagan example or worshiping in a Temple, wearing black (sometimes) and eating a more simple diet. Pagan history can be attached to everything that we do in our religious life. Baptism has a non-Christian connection. Current intention as to our religious practice is more important than is past history.

jbellew7, let us take a look at your reference to EGWs comment on Christmas trees, found on page 482 of ADVENTIST HOME: In the comment below, EGW was clearly talking about using Christmas time to place a tree in the church where people could be reminded to bring gifts to give to God and the Church. While Chrismon trees had not been developed in the time of EGW, I will suggest that EGW would clearly have approved of Chrismon trees today. You can check Wikilpedia and many other references on the Internet to such. Chrismon trees are entirely devoted to praise and worship of Christ. Congregations that place Chrismon trees in their churches often have members hand making the decorations as an act of individual worship. Yes, Chrismon trees are not generally known by SDAs. But, they are well known among some Christians. Personally, I will suggest that such is to bad. I think it would be nice if SDA congregations placed Chrismon trees in their congregatons.

jbellew7 K& Jewelry: I have never before heard the idea that we do not wear jewelry because the heathen used jewelry to worship their gods. I do not have any idea as to where that came from. In any case, I do not believe that one could make a Biblical case for not wearing jewelry because the pagans used it to worship their gods. SDAs have generally attempted to make a Biblical case on the basis of: 1) Expense and stewardship of money. 2) Desire to attract attention to ones self.

Growing up my family never really did the whole Christmas tree deal. Mainly because my mother believed it to be a pagen holiday. I was always surprised to find some years that the Church had a tree put up. Past couple it has not. I recently just found in Adventist Home pg 482 (I believe that's the correct reference, it's what the app says) that EGW approves of a Tree (JoMo's correct). Even saying God would be "well pleased" for churches to put one up. This kinda blew my mind a little and I'm not sure yet I agree with her, I'm still searching for myself whether or not I believe her at all. Nevertheless, I do agree in not supporting pagen traditions, even given a good mindset. I feel this parallels SDA'S and jewelry. A pastor told me (correct me of im wrong) that we don't wear jewelry because thats how the heatherns adorned themselves in biblical times, using it to worship idols. And we're to set ourselves apart from them. He said some may say, "well I wear it cause it's pretty. Not for idols." He then gave this example, suppose I put a Nazi flag outside my house. Not because I support the Nazi beliefs or ideas but only because I like the design. Would a Jew be any less offended even though I have a good mindset? I like the design not the nazis themselves. Even still people will be offended, they know the original meaning. Thus with jewelry God's sees it as it was with the pagans and heathens. He knows the root meaning, even if I'm doing it for different reasons. Same goes with Christmas,easter or any other holiday. Whether or not we have a proper mindset God still knows what it originally meant. Now does God really care so long as we have a good mindset? I don't know. Maybe. I wear my wedding ring and my wife and I just put up our first Christmas tree. Salvation issue? Probably not, I think it really comes down to you and Jesus. That's a little long winded sorry, just my two cents

Why do you think this advice below is given? …24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. 26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,…Hebrews10 I would like to reflect on the fact I see numerous places where the underlined above is part of my experience, both in the body of Christ and in the secular world in general. All the more important when we see this as a good portion of our world today. 1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also. 10Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.....2 Timothy 3 God is Love!~Jesus saves! Keep looking up!

Pretty much!

Has this topic gone to la-la land??

And I'm saying, the church can keep on running around in circles and discussing it, or, get out there and get to know people on an individual basis and, as advocated by 12 step principles, the bible and EGW, share our personal experience. As I posted before, all the talk about God doesn't teach people to go to God and "taste Him". I appreciate the COG people and their efforts, I really do, but there came a point when I realized I wasn't any better off than before. It was the old-time hymns that made me want what they have. It was accounts like H.M.S of Ellen White praying. All of that has led me to seek God and what they have. Church never did. It seems the church is great on talking about what we should do and sharing opinions, but God took matters in His own hand and led me to what I needed. I suspect He is doing the same for millions all over the world. Talking to God trumps (now don't that have a new, sucky, meaning now!) talking about Him any day. Talking to Him and to people teaches me how to reach those in pain.

To some extent, although there are an awful lot of 'we will cut taxes to zero but build the mightiest army the world has ever seen and wipe out the budget deficit' promises, for example, that are simply not compatible with reality. In that situation, it's not the opposing parties, but that politicians promise what no-one can deliver.

I will explain WHY I believe that Jesus was born at the Feast of Tabernacles. There were too many priests, by the time of King David, for all of them to minister in the Temple. So King David divided the priesthood into 24 courses of elders. Men from each "course" came up for two weeks, and then returned home. At festivals all of the priests came to work at the Temple. (I Chronicles Cpt 24) John the Baptist's father Zechariah was of the clan of Abijah. (Luke 1:5) That clan came up the middle two weeks of June (on our calendar). So Zechariah would have returned home, and Elizabeth would have conceived approximately the third week of June. Which means - she would have been in her sixth month, when the angel appeared to Mary of Nazareth, Elizabeth's cousin. That would put the conception of Jesus approximately the third week in December. Hmmmmm. So Dec 25th may have been His conception - but NOT His birth. Nine months from the 3rd week in December, would be the 3rd week in September - which would likely be the Feast of Tabernacles. The prophecy promised that Messiah would come to "tabernacle with us". The Romans took advantage of the Feast - when every Israelite male would journey anyway (to Jerusalem), to hold their "census". If you really want to delve into the topic, here's a few website articles: http://biblelight.net/sukkoth.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am0uv5k-YxM http://119ministries.com/sunburned-119-ministries http://www.truthontheweb.org/easter.htm http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t020.html http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter1.htm

I couldn't agree more JoeMo, and that last paragraph gave me a really big chuckle. And I don't mean a good or bad chuckle, just one of those "I now exactly what you mean" chuckles.

Reddogs, I wish I had your spiritual insight. I just don't see it that way. Just because it is your opinion does not make it true. If you get a blessing out of the same liturgy that our church has held for the past 150 years, by all means continue in that path! I don't particularly feel blessed with the same liturgy, music and sermon material with which I have been fed for over 50 years. I believe there is more to my spiritual experience than being a tea-totalling, Sabbath-keeping vegetarian looking for people who are bigger sinners than I am so I can feel good about myself. Suffice it to say that your revelation is not my revelation. I have pretty strict spiritual standards; they're just not the same as yours. God has me on a different "narrow path" than you, because we are two different people with different issues. In the end, I pray that both paths lead to the Kingdom. Of course there is sin in the church! Are you implying that, as a church member, you have eliminated all sin from your life? If so, you are the first person to do so in 2000 years! Since when does being a believer deem you free from temptation and sin? If there was no sin, there would be no need for a Savior! SInce when is the church a refuge for the saints? I thought is was a place for sinners to come and meet Jesus and be saved. If we didn't allow (indeed LOVE) sinners; there would be no one at church (except maybe you and reddogs). Who of us is qualified to say one sin is worse than the next? Any sin earns you death. You are not consigned to a deeper death for breaking the Sabbath than you are for gossiping. Sin is sin. Period. We ALL need a Savior or we will die the second death. Period.

Exactly, so why continue the conversation unless you're a glutton for endless strife?

Metastatic ovarian cancer is probably irreversible using today's medicine, natural or other, but perhaps she might find needed comfort by staying at the lifestyle center for a few weeks. Saving Myrtle's life by the use of natural remedies would be a long-shot indeed. Maybe there are some success stories from the Times of Refreshing Lifestyle Center, curing cancer by the use of their natural remedies.

This is where the idea comes from that most of our old memories, some of which are very painful, are deleted. With evil purged from the universe, there would be no need to dig through the evils of the past and re-live them. The memories of having helped others may be kept to some degree, maybe just as a vague feeling of having done something good which was rewarded by the Father. Reviewing the wrongs of the past may very well increase the likelihood of resurrecting the forces of evil. If someone wishes to blame God for evil and suffering, they should instead blame Satan, along with Adam and Eve. All of the evil acts of men that cause suffering and sorrow and war, and the diseases that afflict mankind, can all be traced to that first act of disobedience and loss of protection from evil. God didn't cause evil, but someday he will eradicate it and cause it to be remembered no more. We might suppose that God could suddenly stop bad things from happening to people, but this life is more of a trial-by-fire test. We may have to experience the worst evil can offer, but if we trust in God, we will be safe in the end. When children or their mothers or fathers die, it is tragic, but someday the pain will be forgotten. Recall that this life is the tiniest of blips on the timeline of eternity.

The best answer is in reading both chapters "Why was sin permitted" and "The Origen of Evil" from the books Patriarchs and Prophets and Great Controversy, along with the chapter "It is Finished" in Desire of Ages. (I wish that our church would make a little booklet with those 3 chapters, maybe with a fourth chapter on Gethsemane in Desire of Ages). The term Milk and Honey were ancient geographic terms. Honey or preserved foods indicated an agricultural life style. A permanent home. plenty of food (you make the "honey" out of the left over food after you ate) enough money to make an upper class of landowners and a lower working class. This causes leisure time, A life that is predictable, easy and exciting. Milk came from mostly goats, kept out in the desert, moving around looking for food. Not knowing if you will be eating from your garden or plow it under and try again next year. Moving from place to place. Living out in the desert. A life unpredictable, hard and lonely. Now in the land of honey you risk loosing site on your need for God and also that is where the invading armies pass through. The question is not "will disaster come" but "When will it come" While in the land of milk you are always dependent of God and you are safe from the invading armies. The pagans try to appease the gods of honey to bless them and the gods of milk to leave them alone. The God of the Bible claims to be the God of Milk and Honey. A God of the predictable, easy and exciting times but also of the unpredictable, hard and lonely times. God is with us despite having to allow evil to play out. He knows our pains and fears. He offers healing.

To transition from my faith being in my head, to my faith being in my relationship to the world.... and in my relationship to myself as a sinner is a huge leap. Jesus was holy yet fully identified with, and related to, and deeply connected with every human being however deep in the suffering of sin. Only In Christ and through Him can this happen in our lives. Jesus wants to be the one who is seen and is experienced in our sinful hearts and in our communities, in the church and out of the church. Enough of preaching to the sanctified choir. Jesus pour himself out on a lost world, full of prayer and loaded with the power of divine love. We must take hold of heaven and let heaven take hold of us. Let us live in God's presence on the Sabbath, and let God's presence in us reach out to the world all week long. It takes power, and love to be available to enter into labor for the souls of postmodern contemporary society in all it's special wounds and conditions. We Must have more of Jesus, His wisdom, tact, mercy, hope, His intimacy with His father. Of ourselves we can do nothing. True spirituality is hated by the sanctimonious. Jesus was hated for mingling with the publicans and the less than pharisaical.

That is harsh and judgmental. If someone is mistaken on some detail or terminology or date you are basically saying that the person is not a believer and that they are lost. Who made you the judge of a person's heart?

We like to blame many (not all) sufferings on sin, our parents, genetics, etc. But the reality is: we cause most of our own problems by the way we eat, think, act, handle stress and hydrate. Almost no one wants to accept responsibility for their disease, but in fact most of the times it's our own fault. Now some of the external influences mentioned by 8thdaypriest are pretty horrific, but with God's grace we can overcome. I believe that if we give ourselves totally to Jesus, he can give us the strength to overcome physically as well as mentally.

Perhaps we should just crawl into a cave and become hermits from the world. You seem too concerned about what others do. Who cares what holiday is observed by another persons/persons. Too much time is spent on which came first 'chicken or egg'. Get on with life and live.