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As a person who is of above average education and as one who studies the Bible on my own and not under the supervision of ecclesiastics, I find Jesus to be both a "bleeding heart liberal" and an unabashed conservative. He did not sanction the stoning of the woman caught in adultery (liberal) as the conservatives would have done, but neither did He sanction the breaking of the law (conservative). In fact, His view of the 10 c was even MORE strict than the conservatives of His day. There are many and conservative examples in the Bible. Just to name a couple - lust after a woman in your heart and you are guilty of adultery. Hate a person and you are guilty of murder. His ideal (conservative) is a monogamous marriage between a man and a woman, yet permitted polygamy (liberal). Labeling God or Jesus as a liberal or a conservative is, imho, a complete misunderstanding of the Bible.

(True story) In 2014 my wife and I went on a tour of France with Grand European Travel. Our tour bus was 2/3 full of Americans from different parts of the USA. Our guide wanted to know what our food preferences were so he would know how to arrange meals at the restaurants. I thought I could spare lengthy explanations by just saying, "Kosher". A Jew from Kansas overheard it and incredulously asked, "Kosher? Really? You don't look Jewish!" (I am Asian). So I smiled and said, "Would you like to see the sign of Abraham?"

I don't think Gerry was referring to food when he talked about "the sign of Abraham"......

In response to reading and skimming this thread... Jesus was tempted to satisfy hunger by using his divine prerogatives that he had set aside in order to meet us where we are. If he had done that he would have left us behind. Jesus was tempted to deny his Lordship granted at birth and held through humility and surrender to His father's will, and have instant false ownership of all. Jesus was tempted to display his relationship with his Father, through presumption, and to prove his protected status, inadvertently denying that he was indeed the great I AM. Jesus maintained a self control stronger than death, deceit, and all the glory of this world. "If you are truly the Son of God"... the enemy came to challenge his identity. If he could have shaken or diverted Christ from his identity, his true position, His relationship to to heaven... he hoped he would obtain some shade of recognition or allegiance to his perverse code which was be God in this world. When Christ is meeting the enemy in our lives... these battles are in some form repeated. We are tempted to deny God, to not let Christ inherently be Lord of our hearts, of everything, and everyone. Christ has all authority over the evil one, over all sin, and all righteousness. He took captivity captive, and intercedes for all. By Him all things consist. Christ is indeed more than our hope, more than our redeemer, He is inexhaustible in all that he is. We are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

In my book labeling anyone a liberal or conservative, is a complete misunderstanding of people in general! There is not one person that can claim they are a complete liberal and there is not one person that can claim they are a complete conservative! We are all both.

Ever wonder what would happen if we treated the Torah as we treat our cell phone? What if we carried It around in our purse or pocket every day? What if we looked through It many times each day? What if we turned back to go get It if we forgot It? What if we always checked It for messages? What if we treated It as if we couldn't manage a day without It? What if we gave It to our children as a special gift? What if we always took It, and used It, when we traveled? What if we always thought to use It in case of an emergency? Oh, and one more thing... Unlike our cell phone, we don't have to worry about Torah being disconnected, because Its "Carrier" never fails.

The Gospel is, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Even if you took the law out of the question, this would still be true. The law has become a focal point because of how Satan has chosen to attack God's character. So the law is involved in the Great Controvesy, but in an incidental way, because this is the way Satan has chosen to attack God. But the essential issues have not to do with the law, but with God. Even if you take the law away, these same issues would still be there; the same problem, and the same solution. Since the law has been brought up as a subject (I mean, by Satan), God has taken pains to make clear that Satan's accusations are false, that the everything that He has done is in harmony with the law, but the important thing is that Jesus Christ, in His person (His life and character), has refuted Satan's accuastions, and made clear who God really is. This is the theme of the book of John, and the writings of Paul (actually the whole Bible, but these are two especially clear sources). To limit the Gospel to only Jesus Christ solving a legal problem is to miss a lot, and to miss the most important thing, which has to do with the character of God. If the Gospel is limited to solving a forensic issue, this statement makes no sense. On the other hand, if the Gospel has to do with clarifying issuses regarding God's character which have been raised by the enemy, then it does. The same Gospel which saves us as individuals, if we choose to believe in Christ, secures the entire universe, because the same issues are involved for both humans and other created beings, which center around the character of God. When you sin and Satan accuses you before Christ, Satan says: "You have no right to allow this sinner pnattmbtc into heaven!" And Christ will respond to the accuser and say, "Yes, pnattmbtc is a sinner, but his faith is in Me and in Me pnattmbtc is a 'new creation' and hence My law is completely satisfied." I don't think the problem is the law. The following has helped my understanding of things: This is why we need to be born again, so that the purity, holiness and peace will not be torture for us. Do you think that unconverted persons would be happy in heaven?

What is "clear" to you - that is - your understanding of Paul's words, is not clear to me. I "see" something different. These things have been debated for almost 2000 years. I've been reading the latest issue of "Christian History" magazine. It reviews the 20 most influential writings of Christian history. Several writers addressed the "why" of Christ's incarnation and death, reaching different conclusions. I'm interested in these things. I want to know the essentials for a human being to be given eternal life. I do NOT believe a person is given immortality when he is born. I do NOT believe all persons were given immortality before "the foundation of the world".

True....So Christ as a man, because He had assumed our fallen humanity, was tempted to go against His Father's own will and use the power of His Divinity. What's the root of the temptation? The love of self....So Christ was tempted by our bent-to-self . Our bent (iniquity) comes from within. Christ denied self....He said "no" through the power of the Spirit and conquered where we have failed.

i know it is not easy to share so freely here such personal issues I have health issues i don't talk about I am sure many of us do Oh how we need to love on each other and pray for each other here Let not our differences keep us apart in mind and heart. We are all more alike than not. Femster,I don't know how you do what you do! It looks ghastly! Yet you still trust in Him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! amen!

It might be better to just thank interested responders for their input and stay friends rather than to demonize them. A little skepticism of self-supporting health ministries and a better understanding of Myrtle's medical crisis will never hurt anyone. That the Times of Refreshing Life Style Center would demand $4000 cash up front or else no treatments to save Myrtle's life wakes up my skepticism. The Center would just let her die if she doesn't have the money. How caring. Of course, if Christ were present, he would touch and heal her at no cost if she believed that he could heal her. The Center doesn't have a cure for metastatic ovarian cancer. They just want the money. The con of false hope helps with that. Myrtle has apparently lived a life of doing good for others, which is what the Kingdom of YHVH is all about. I hope that I can say the same before it's my time to die.

I think common agreement could be found on the point that the gospel is everything, but it is rather odd to conceive of the fate of newborns, about which the Bible is almost completely silent, as being the essence of, or an essential to, the gospel. There are many similar sidelights, such as marriage in heaven, and lots of other things regarding which one can speculate, but what God has inspired writers to communicate regarding the gospel concerns primarily the person of Jesus Christ. Regarding Rachel's view, I have a similar concern regarding the lack of scriptural evidence for it, however what is appealing to me regarding her view is that it is reasonable, by which I mean, that God would proceed in the manner which Rachel suggests is reasonable; there is nothing arbitrary about it. The idea that God will take all to heaven if they are ignorant smacks of being arbitrary. What Ellen White suggests is there is a group of people who will not be resurrected, because they were not responsible for their actions (e.g., not being able to reason). This is an explanation which appeals to one's reason. What Rachel suggests also appeals to one's reason (meaning that such who were unable to make a choice during this lifetime will be given a chance later on). To suggest that an entire of class of people, those who cannot reason, will be taken to heaven, does not appeal to one's reason. Why should not being able to reason result in eternal life?

Exactly Robert! While we may disagree greatly on how to apply the principles, you and I do hold to the same principles. And while there are many who feel that they need to put Jesus completely in the one category for him to be our example, actually these principles can be held with the traditional approach to the nature of Jesus.

Three rabbis were discussing how to have the best davening experience (prayer) and what the best positions for prayer were. A telephone repairman who was working nearby overheard their conversation. "Standing and swaying back and forth during the shmone esrei is definitely best," said the first rabbi. "No," another rabbi contended. "I have the best davening when I’m sitting down saying the shema with my eyes closed." "You're both wrong," the third rabbi insisted. "The best davening is Kabbalat Shabbat, dancing with my arms outstretched to Heaven." The repairman could contain himself no longer. "Rabbis," he interrupted, "the best praying I ever did was hanging upside down from a telephone pole."

I agree with this. You obviously know something about earth's temperatures that I don't. I don't believe God covered them with skins because of temperature differences, but because now they were ashamed of nakedness, and because there were thorns to rip their skin, sun to burn them away from the shade of Eden - and because God wanted the type of killing a lamb to cover/atone for sin. My belief is that the Garden of Eden was like a little oasis in a world exactly like today. It is like my back yard which has no wild animals either, and has fruit trees, grape vines, figs etc. What it lacks is a Tree of Knowledge. But to make up for this I have the internet.