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If Christ could suddenly appear and disappear after his resurrection, why not his messengers also? This is beyond our current technology, but maybe someday we will understand it. The wings of the Cherubim, covered with "eyes", or facets, may or may not function like wings in air, but might use some other propulsive force. The Cherubim may very well be robots that are located between the whirling wheels of the fiery "chariot" of the LORD, and also at the place from which YHVH communicated to man via the Ark of the Covenant in the days of Moses. Recall that the Ark had two Cherubim facing each other on the lid, and when the LORD wanted to communicate with Moses, that spot between them was where the brilliant light and the voice came from. I don't suppose the Cherubim are classified as "angels" or messengers since they seem to have a different function. Maybe that's why some think that angels have wings, by confusing them with the Cherubim who actually have several pairs of "wings". When they raise their wings, the chariot of the LORD moves with lightning flashes and the sound of thunder, but when they lower their wings, the chariot no longer moves. I don't think that they flapped their wings like birds, just raised or lowered them while traveling or stopping.

Sometimes we would be better becoming more like innocent children, than by the educated, sometimes cold hearted, Adults we have become.

Thanks, Pam, for posting the photo. Samantha really does look like a baby doll. She weighed 8.2 lbs at birth, I think. A C-section really sounds painful, but so does giving birth. A friend of my daughter's set up a fund-raising account at: www.gofundme.com/nyebaby Not sure if the total was for the adoption or the delivery, or both, but there are a lot more expenses involved. She works for the SDA Conference and he is a firefighter. They went to WA a month early because the birth mother was having contractions and was distraught about having to take the baby home with her. They stayed with that friend and her family and should be leaving as soon as the baby is released from the hospital, and, upon completion of some more adoption paperwork. (The biological father, who is not married, was concerned that he would have to pay child support. That would serve him right if he did have to support a baby half his. Completion of the paperwork should take care of his concern.) My daughter will have lost about 2 months of work, while her husband will lose at least one month. I think that the anti-abortion protesters should try to help couples who can't have babies of their own with the high costs of adoption. On occasion, my daughter, who wanted a baby so badly, would have to drive by a Planned Parenthood clinic, and it was like a knife in her heart, knowing what went on in there. Having babies and little children around the house is enjoyable, but just wait until they become teenagers who know everything and want their independence...

My daughter is now a mommy. She was in the delivery room as Samantha was being born, and was allowed to cut the umbilical cord. In the photo it looks as if my daughter had been crying, and she had, big tears of happiness. She and her husband were unable to conceive for many years, but made a connection in WA with an expectant mother who already had 3 children and definitely didn't want a 4th. My daughter had to suffer through a number of fertility treatments, none of which were successful. Samantha is officially adopted by my daughter and her husband, and was delivered by C-section a day or so ago. My daughter thought that she was perfect, even though Samantha howled during her first bath. She quieted down after she was wrapped up warmly and held by her new parents. The hospital gave the them a room to stay in until the baby is allowed to go home with them, just a day or two after birth. I think she has 1 month of maternity leave from the SDA conference where she works. Samantha.doc

This link below isn't from an SDA source/author/artist, but I still recommend it. http://adam4d.com/dont-hate/ Update: Here's a new comic on the subject, by the same artist.

star of "Grizzly Adams," dies at 74 Actor Dan Haggerty, star of the TV show "The Life and Times of Grizzly Adams," died on Friday after a battle with spine cancer. He was 74. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dan-haggerty-star-of-grizzly-adams-dies-at-74/ Man did I love that show!!

The Church does not commit abuse, individuals do.

Notice what God himself told Isaac about the faith of Abraham: "because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.” (Genesis 26:5) Although God's laws were not written down at the time of Abraham, the author of Genesis does not give any indication that God's commandments, statutes, and laws that Abraham kept were any different than those that were given to the Israelites. In Hebrew and Greek the word "faith" includes both the thoughts in one's head/heart and the faithful actions that are done as a result of what one believes. That is shown in the "faith chapter" (Hebrews 11) where the great men of faith are commended for what they did, rather than for what they thought.

I rode a Yamaha 400 til the night-time encounter with the side of a big truck parked across the highway. That was my first helicopter ride but I was unconscious and don't remember anything. Even though I was wearing a full-face helmet, I was knocked out, and still got road rash through jeans, long underwear, and a snowmobile suit. I shouldn't mention again the broken bones and loss of a kidney. I never knew what pain was until after that accident. Although it was a two-cycle, the bike ran quiet, and I felt like I was flying. With no windscreen, though, it was nice to arrive at my destination after a 60-mile ride. I liked the smaller bike because it was light and I could load it into my van if needed, plus, both of my feet could easily touch the ground. There was that problem with other drivers not seeing me, even though I always rode with the lights on. If a motorcycle falls from the sky into my yard, I'd cut the parachute off and start riding it locally, but not to the city. I don't care much for dirt biking, so I hope it's a street bike.

There may be a thin line between childish and adult behavior. Sometimes children and adults can be extremely caring and generous, while other times children and adults can be extremely critical and selfish. As Christians we should always cultivate the former if we understand the extremely high value that others are worth, and all of the empty space left in the Kingdom because so many didn't make it.

There sure seems to be a lot of famous people dying of cancer lately... I suppose the idea that sick or old people will reach a milestone like Christmas or a birthday before passing away might be true here

Wouldn't Jesus' prediction that He would come as a thief in the night also signify a short period of time, so short in fact that it takes everyone by surprise?

A statement which is worth some consideration on this question of the length of the duration of the time of trouble is this one from A Word to the Little Flock, p.12. "The Lord has shown me in vision, that Jesus rose up, and shut up the door, and entered the Holy of Holies at the seventh month, 1844; but Michael's standing up (Daniel 12:1) to deliver His people, is in the future. This will not take place until Jesus has finished His priestly office in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and lays off His priestly attire, and puts on His most kingly robes, and crown, to ride forth on the cloudy chariot... Then Jesus will have the sharp sickle in His hand,(Rev.14:14) and then the saints will cry day and night to Jesus on the cloud, to thrust in His sickle and reap. This will be the time of Jacob's trouble, (Jer.30:5-8) out of which the saints will be delivered by the voice of God." See also, Spiritual Gifts, Vol.1:206; 2:32; Early Writings,285; The Great Controversy,635-636. This statement tells us that as soon as Jesus has completed the work in the sanctuary as the High Priest, He changes His priestly garments for the kingly robes immediately following which He rides forth on the journey from Heaven to this earth to deliver His people. While He is thus riding forth, the saints upon the earth will be calling upon Him to thrust in the sickle and reap the harvest. (Rev.14:14-15) Then we are told that the time of Jacob's trouble is the time when this is going on, by which we would instantly know that duration of the time of trouble if we knew how long it will take Jesus to lay off the priestly attire, put on the kingly garments and fly down from Heaven to the earth. Now nowhere are we told just how much time will be occupied on this journey though we certainly do know that it can be accomplished in seven days and even possibly less for that is the length of time it will take to make the return journey. The evidence for this is given in Early Writings, 16. "We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass." That much then is clear that the journey need occupy but the seven days. However, we cannot take the definite position from this that there will be exactly the same length of time in coming. There may well be other factors not revealed to us which may extend the period a little, but it does indicate to us that the length of time will be a great deal less than one whole year. In reading of the experience of the saints during the time of Jacob's trouble, we find the following in The Great Controversy, 630-1: "Could men see with heavenly vision, they would behold companies of angels that excel in strength stationed about those who have kept the word of Christ's patience.(Rev.14:12) With sympathizing tenderness, angels have witnessed their distress, and have heard their prayers. They are waiting the word of their Commander to snatch them from their peril. But they must wait yet a little longer. The people of God must drink of the cup, and be baptized with the baptism. The very delay, so painful to them, is the best answer to their petitions. As they endeavor to wait trustingly for the Lord to work, they are led to exercise faith, hope, and patience, which have been too little exercised during their religious experience. Yet for the elect's sake the time of trouble will be shortened. Shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him?...'I tell you that He will avenge them speedily.' The end will come more quickly than men expect." The evidence available then is that though of fearful intensity, the time of Jacob's trouble will certainly be much less than a year in length and will in fact be of quite short duration. To those who have to pass through it, it will seem like a thousand years while it is going on, but terrible and trying though it will be and seemingly beyond the power of human endurance, the strength of the Lord will be the victory of His people and in that time they shall come off more than conquerors.

The duration of this time of trouble. It has generally been held in the past that the time of trouble occupied a whole year from the close of probation to the second coming of Christ in the clouds of Heaven. This concept was based upon a certain understanding of Revelation 18:8 which reads as follows: "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her." Knowing as we do the well established principle that a day in prophecy is symbolic of a literal year, then it is all too easy to quickly arrive at the conclusion that this means the seven last plagues will be one literal year in falling, but such a conclusion can only be held by overlooking several important facts. In the first case there are three other verses in the same chapter which state that it will come "in one hour." See verses 10,17, and 19. Now one hour is just as much a time symbol as one day, which means then that here we have conflicting witness in this chapter. One could take the weight of evidence and conclude that there are three texts which state it will come in one hour to the one which states they will come in one day, and therefore conclude that the plagues will occupy one twenty-fourth of a prophetic day which is about fifteen literal days, more or less. However, to take this position cannot be satisfactory while ever there is that text which distinctly says one day. The only remaining position to take is that the year day principle is invalid at the time spoken of in this chapter and this is the correct position to take. It is correct because we have been distinctly told that after the close of the 2,300 day prophecy, prophetic time had ceased. The word of the mighty Angel who is no less a Person than Christ Himself, has declared that "there should be time no longer." Revelation 10:6. As this was spoken at the time of the bitter-sweet experience, we know that it applies to the termination of the great 2,300 day prophecy, which ended in October 22,1844. In commenting on this statement, the Spirit of Prophecy has this to say: "This time, which the Angel declared with solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842-1844, there can be no definite time tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844." E.G.White, 7B.C.971. By this clear declaration then, we can know that after 1844, the year day principle of interpretation no longer applies, so that we are not to understand that either the use of the word "day," or "hour," in Revelation 18, is intended to reveal to the Bible student the exact length of time in which the plagues will fall. Rather, the idea which is being conveyed is that it will come suddenly and in a very short period of time. In actual fact we have no real indication of how long the time of trouble will extend beyond evidences which suggest it will be very much less than a year in duration. In the first case, as we have so clearly seen in our past study, the death decree will have already been passed and the date set for its execution, before the great time of trouble actually begins. This fact should tell us that the time of trouble would have to be much less than a year. In respect to this we must remember that the fearful calamities and disasters which desolate the world during the seven last plagues do not fall upon a world enjoying at the time of the beginning of this period, a glorious and sunny prosperity. This will be far from the case for, as the world progressively stiffens its resistance to the truth, the devil has greater and greater control over the elements, so that calamities and disasters increase and spread even before the loud cry begins. One has but to look out today on the world scene to know that things in this field are growing worse and worse, and will continue to do so as the rejection of the truth of God increases. "While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation.(Ezekiel 14:12-17) Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast.'The earth mourneth and fadeth away,''the haughty people do languish. The earth also shall be defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, broken the everlasting covenant.'" Isaiah 24:4,5; The Great Controversy,589,590. If things are bad as they are now, what will it be like in the earth as the Loud Cry progresses? Under the flood tide of that light the rejection of the truth will become more and more totally defiant and complete until the close of probation when it will be absolute, and Satan will have full control of the finally impenitent and of the elements of nature. Therefore during the Loud Cry period we can know that disasters and calamities will very rapidly increase until the world is in a very sorry state even before the seven last plagues are poured out.

This doesn't mean more childish, does it?

When someone comes with a pet doctrine, and they have to use Paul to prove it, then my suspicion is that their doctrine is either wrong, or unimportant. If it were important, the rest of the NT would prove it, in particular, the Gospels and teachings of Christ.

Oh goodness Gracious! Thank you for clearing that up! I thought you looked like JoeMo! And Aubrey!

1) My credit card has been compromised several times. In 2014 it was replaced three (3) times. 2) My bank has telephoned me several times to ask if an attempted charge was valid. Some were. Others were not. Out of this I have learned to telephone the bank before I traveled and inform them of the dates and areas to which I would be traveling. 3) I now have a chip card and so far it has not been compromised. 4) Debit card: I prefer not to use mine. My entire account can be cleared out. Federal law does not give the protections for a debit card that Federal law provides for a credit card. Your bank may (?) provide you with the same protections, but it is not required to do so. My bank provided substantial fraud protections for a debit card, but that is simply their choice.

HEY ALL i use my real name but picture is not me---- dgrimm60

Reminds me of a story I heard or read recently of a person, fairly well known in Adventist circles that had an accident after which she was attended to by several uniformed emergency response "people" that arrived on the scene almost immediately afterwards and stayed with her until an ambulance arrived. They left quickly when the ambulance attendants came to her so she was not able to thank them. When later she stopped at the fire and rescue department to thank everyone for helping her, she especially wanted to thank those men who had syed with her. When she described them and the uniforms they were wearing she was told that no fire and rescue personnel wore such uniforms.

Radical Muslims certainly DO sacrifice their children in the name of Allah. The LORD will not bear with it much longer. And unwed drug lords who father a dozen or more children by several mothers, also sacrifice their children to their "god". On the other hand, affluent parents who spoil their children to win their favor, also "sacrifice" their children. Just in a different way. When we in the affluent USA, neglect the poor (I'm speaking of those truly poor - usually living in 3rd world countries) we also "sacrifice" children to our "god". In the West, we "worship" youth, beauty, power, and pleasure. The plagues of Egypt destroyed their "gods". Makes me wonder how the LORD will destroy the "gods" of this world.

Congrats to the new parents and grandparents!!! Samantha looks lovely! (and AS, I hope you don't mind, but I made a screenshot from your .doc so those who couldn't open it could see the photo... )

Some Ex-SDAs have suffered much spiritual abuse from the denomination. They have been hurt and are hurting. They may be coming from the standpoint of attempting to protect others from being hurt. Others are so inspired by the "new light" that they have received that they want to share it with others.

Not allegory. Figure of speech. A "thousand years" was a figure of speech in use at the time, as we see in 2 Peter 3:8, meaning an indefinite period of time. John's is a book of symbolism and thus to read symbolically, unless of course topics addressed there are treated literally, in other parts of the Bible. We find the "thousand years" addressed elsewhere, however, never in literal terms, but always figuratively. This seems off topic because it is forgotten that this, at least for me, has been in answer to the question of how the 144,000 could be the only ones who go to heaven when other people also are to be saved, on earth. I have not veered away from that, even though repeatedly asked to explain my views on the state of dead, something I would do only elsewhere. The reason there are resurrected martyrs during the thousand years is because we are still living during the thousand years, right now, up until the Second Coming, at which the martyrs, the dead, are said to "rise first," not afterward. Since the first resurrection was at the resurrection of Jesus (Matthew 27:52, 53), and since the "thousand years" begin with the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4, 5), how can there be any confusion over the idea that we are living through the "thousand years" right now, and that Jesus, therefore, returns for the second (not third) time at the end of the millennium?

NO. That is not what I said at all. I said Darby was the first who came up with the idea of a third advent (based on the imaginings of a retarded girl), with a seven year period between the second and third advents, which later Adventists such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists replaced with the millennium. Up until the Adventist period, about 200 years ago, most Protestants and most Catholics, alike, believed the Second Coming would not happen until after the millennial period. Premillennialism was always a minority view.

Stan, I appreciate your concern here; but I also have a concern. There are some of us here (me for one) that consider ourselves practicing Adventists; but others consider us wolves in sheep's clothing. It's mostly because I question the infallability of EGW and certain SDA interpretations of prophecy. Yet, as I read them, I conform to all 28 pillars of faith. What constitutes a "practicing Adventist" - church attendance, sinlessness, doctrinal purity, all of the above? I'm a little sensitive to this; cuz a member of this forum called me out in public as a wolf in sheep's clothing a while back.