Leaderboard

As for 1 Cor 7, this was written when Paul was expecting Jesus' return to be imminent. Jesus warned "Woe to sucking mothers" and Paul was just applying that principle for the events that could have happened had the Gospel continued to spread as at first. In Ephesians we find Paul's actual view of marriage: That it is used to develop a Christ like character so that we can present ourselves to him without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. This was Paul's view when not facing the imminent second coming. Thus we find that normally we are to follow Paul's advice in Ephesians, but that there are times and situations where things happening around us are so difficult that we should follow Cor.7

Simple and was basically answered by Lauralea above. Widows were supported by the church, and among the young there was a tendency to do these things. Paul is saying that they have plenty of good years left in them and instead of just living off the church and becoming gossips and busy bodies, that they should not retire and live off the church until they are old.

Anonymity can bring out the worst in people who have forgotten (or never learned) the social graces of courtesy and respect.

Looking out on what remains of almost 30" of snow it is difficult just now to wrap my mind around global warming. Last year close to two weeks when the temperature did rise above zero also made one wonder about the weather. Please don't misunderstand, I am not discounting global warming, just commenting on what I/we live with

For since the creation of the world His (God’s) invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made (i.e, created), so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God (in their consciences), they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools…. For they (those who reject God) exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. [Romans 1:20-22,25 NASB] Clearly the rejection of God as the creator ultimately leads to “futile” speculations, such as evolution. Not only this, it leads to self-worship, that is, the worship of men’s intellect. This is the essence of secular humanism.

I'm in total agreement debbym. There really is no need for the Temple, at least as far as sacrificing is concerned, but probably will be used for worshiping.

I agree. I think he has a very valid point.

Only the "inner court" with the Alter of Sacrifice, and "chambers for the priests" is described in detail. Nothing inside of the Temple itself is described. The LORD told Ezekiel: "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever." God the Father would be the One on the throne within the Temple. The "Prince" would be Jesus. The priests are "sons of Zadok" - meaning priests who have remained faithful. Does this vision describe a literal Temple to be built on this earth, with literal animal sacrifices? If it does - then this Temple really is the "Temple that might have been". I absolutely DO NOT BELIEVE that the redeemed will offer animal sacrifices in the Kingdom of Messiah on the earth. But his vision IS the REASON why many believe that animal sacrifices will be continued in the Kingdom. Does this vision describe the ministry of Christ our Prince? Yes - I believe so. Does this vision describe (in symbols) a future ministry of Christ - on this earth - after Israel redeemed is resurrected and returned to "the land". I believe so. I believe that many from "the rest of the dead" will come to learn the ways of the LORD, after they are resurrected at the 8th millennium.

A sample of the reason why we are transitioning to using real names here.

Yes. My thoughts exactly. A substantial amount of convoluted sophistry to reframe and redefine sophistication so as to eliminate and negate any positive and worthwhile meaning of the word and related and foundational concepts it represents. In short - just more anti-intellectual nonsense intended to justify ignorance and undermine education and progress. Or in a word - backward.

He said elsewhere not to support them as widows IIf tgey were under 60. It sounds like a widows pension. Maybe tgey took some kind of vow. Not something we do today. I cannot edit this post. Sorry about the typos.

It sounds like you copied this from somewhere. Not too many on CA would wear a Versace gown and obviously this is satirical. And no Paul is not a misogynist. This is written almost like an unbeliever not like someone who has a clear understanding of the text. Shamefacedness is modesty or a lack of inapppropriate boldness. Broided hair had strands of gold elaborately woven in. And not to judge but personally I find a nice tankini with shorts more appropriate than a bikini. Some say women at times were interrupting the service with questions. Paul also commended Phoebe an early church leader and spoke of Priscilla. I am also not sure if some of the details of behavior were cultural. Paul did say he thought he had the word of the Lord about remaining single in that day and time but said it was him saying it. Paul also told Onesimus to return to Philemon his master.

Ali, I like the connection you make between being treated with kindness and remaining in the church.

I read this article in LATIMES today. And David Geelan is correct. It has to do with record keeping. The article indicated that they thought it was the hottest year ever. Period.

Nope: it wasn't a 140 year old record, it was the hottest year in the 140 years for which records exist. The second hottest year was 2014 (not 1875), and 15 of the 16 hottest years on record have occurred in the past 15 years. It simply is far, far hotter globally than it has been in human history, and getting hotter at a rapid rate.

the OP used the word, "sophisticated"... the very first definition on google is the following (and I completely agree with it). There's nothing remotely indicative of evil or deception. I think I'd rather be sophisticated (enlightened, knowledgeable & cultured) than *unsophisticated* (naive, ignorant & crude).... but that's just me. Others may prefer naiveté.

Amen! To love each other as God loves HIS SON! AMEN! Well.. im still waiting for the Church to understand there is no us and them. As well as some QUEERS! We are all in this Together. And I am ready for the Church to see LGBTIQQAAP Community as their Spiritual equals. just as lovely oooo #SUPERNATURAL LOVE! ............................................... heterosexuals are not closer to GOD homosexuals are not farther from GOD And this is the real and eternal life: That they know you, The one and only true God, And Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

I have discovered from my own experience and way too many LGBTIQQAAP EXPERIENCES ..it is about others comfort. Oh i know they pullout the globber verses and scream SIN..but its about fear and discomfort and ignorance deep inside Pam, I don't know how your church is.. but you can be sure in a conservative environment. ... For teeming numbers ..Seeing a young man in a dress in your church school is very uncomfortable... Esp. when ignorant of the precious rare circumstance . How cool you know the School. I don't think our paths will cross again. So many more questions I wish I had asked. But it was a friendly candid chance encounter with two non normatives who understood each other like no one else at that moment. not an interview. . In American SDA Schools/Church it is hell today to be LGBTIQQAAPP Have no idea in Europe in the 90's or 40 years ago egads! # all are fearfully and wonderfully made..when both sides see that..both sides will be more comfortable with themselves and others

Jessie-Jess: I can accept the fact that you are offended by the opening post. But, if you are offended, you probably should not be reading this thread. Borderline obscene: I will not argue the reality of what apparently rests in your mind. But, that mind is yours. I will suggest that few adults living in our society today, who are in touch with the real world would agree with you. Inappropriate: This is probably the subject level of a High School biology class. Sexuality issues are a big issue today. People in touch with the time want to know. Recently I attended a Sabbath afternoon meeting in large SDA Church. A physician spoke and he said much more than has been said here. He presented information regarding the genetic make-up of people that was new to me. Did you know that a single person could have some organs in their body that have the typical female--double X chromosome--make up while other organs in their body have the typical male--XY Chromosome--make up. IOW, a single person may have heart cells that show a female makeup and a brain that shows male makeup. Yes, this is true. This type of person results when a male and a female, fertilized egg fuses together into one person, rather than developing into two fraternal twins. By the way, the audience had people in attendance who were younger than 18 years of age. By the way, Iearned stuff that I had not previously known from that meeting. Erotic, nothing in the OP was erotic. I will say: The Gospel deals with life as we experience it in our humanity. The gospel must speak to people today in the terms of what society is about today. Such discussions and posts are reality and a valid part of the Christian life.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

Oh I think I might have to state the obvious here. Oh dear! If one were to look at the Thread Title.. One might figure out that the pro homosexual or homosexuality theology is put up to help people to understand what Gay Christians are studying and finding in the Bible in context of History, Culture, and Translation. I don't think it would there would be mass paradigm shifts here. QUEERS are included at the Table of JESUS. No one can now tell them otherwise now! It might help people understand why they make their way to the Table after the horrors since antiquity. Meanwhile there needs to be both Forgiveness and Grace extended to both sides We are all worse than we think and .. God is better than we Think also!

I don't agree with every lil thing this guy says below and even a conclusion or two ... but the above post i whole heartedly hear very deeply cause of my experiences as well as friends in or out of Church. But much of this can stand up to scrutiny if understood rightly the Male Domination Culture of the Time (and even now it seems) and the evil biases and ignorance of original Hebrew and Greek that has been around since Antiquity And I would add much much more to the post that personally helps me in my understanding of the matter close to my heart .. one example here http://clubadventist.com/forums/topic/62910-a-god-of-concessions-divorce-etclistislong/ and yet another http://clubadventist.com/forums/topic/59810-when-i-hear-the-story-of-sodom/#comment-673617 May the Joy of the Lord be your Strength! A Six-Pack of Biblical Gay Affirmation : The Clobber Passages Revisited Posted on December 6, 2015 by ckratzer In the biblical book of Hosea, chapter four, the writer experiences God speaking, “My people are being destroyed from a lack of knowledge.” It’s interesting to me that God doesn’t say, “Hey, you know what? It’s because of sin that you’re being destroyed.” The text doesn’t even say it’s because of temptation, not even because of Beyonce’. No, the writer experiences God declaring, “it’s all about your ignorance.” Interesting, very interesting. So here we are with the issue of homosexuality. No surprise, this is a topic that has been baked in a good bit of ignorance. And I, once a willing cook in the kitchen of bad theology, and even worse… bigotry. That all changed, however, when I revisited the Bible with a new heart, and with new experience and information. I pray that process happens for you. There are a mere six passages in the Bible that specifically deal with the issue of homosexuality. I’m going to deal with five of them; line by line, verse by verse. One passage is basically a repeat of another (Lev. 18:22, 20:13). Some people call these verses the six “clobber” passages because people use them to clobber homosexuals and homosexuality declaring, “See, it’s clear as day, black and white. God hates homosexual. Homosexuals are sinners. They’re all going to fry in hell.” Good times for sure. Yet, the very passages so many want to use to condemn homosexuality, I believe are actually a six-pack of biblical, gay affirmation. Yup, a six-pack of heaven-crafted, delicious, biblical gay affirmation. Intoxicating, with God-authored freedom and validation. Detoxifying, with truth and fresh revelation. So, belly on up and drink it in… Bottle One : Sodom and Gomorrah Summer Ale Genesis 19. It’s a sad story. A story about a guy named Lot. There’s a backdrop to this. Lot is Abraham’s nephew, and Abraham and Lot became very successful. They acquire all kinds of cattle, herds, and people. Bucket loads of stuff. Soon, they realize that sticking together was getting to be too complicated. Running into each other, conflicts emerged. So, Abraham spoke up one day and said “Listen Lot, we need to go different directions here. I love you, but we’re just on top of each other.” Abraham, being a humble guy, continues “Look at the horizon Lot, pick a spot. You go there, and I’ll take what’s left.” Lot gazes his eyes upon the cities of the plains, which are Sodom and Gomorrah. Soon after, he enters into Sodom and Gomorrah and quickly realizes it’s a pretty nasty place. The people are clearly in significant violation of some of the most important ethical and moral issues of that Hebraic context… hospitality, gluttony, and arrogance. About this same time, God visits Abraham and whispers, “Hey Abe, I need to clue you in a bit about something that I’m probably going to be doing here. That city, where Lot is hanging out, their lack of hospitality, all their arrogance and self-centeredness. I’ve got to end this thing.” Abraham responds, “Hey God, could you hold off here, give Lot a heads up?” After some discourse, they finally come to an agreement where God sends a couple angels into Sodom and Gomorrah to let Lot know what’s about to happen. That’s where we pick up the story… “That evening the two angels arrived in Sodom, while Lot was sitting near the city gate. When Lot saw them, he got up, bowed down low, 2 and said “Gentlemen, I am your servant. Please come to my home. You can wash your feet, spend the night, and be on your way in the morning.” Right off the bat, a big deal to the Hebrew moral code was the issue of hospitality. Probably the most important, ethical issue of the day. Lot is trying to honor this tenant . They told him, “No, we’ll spend the night in the city square.” 3 But Lot kept insisting, until they finally agreed and went home with him. He baked some bread, cooked a meal, and they ate. 4 Before Lot and his guests could go to bed, every man in Sodom, young and old, came and stood outside his house 5 and started shouting, “Where are your visitors? Send them out, so we can have sex with them!” Did you read it… “Every man in Sodom?” Now let’s just use our brains for a second. You can be sure “every man” was not homosexual in orientation. Our national percentage here in modern 2015 is less than two percent. But this isn’t about percentages, this isn’t about homosexuality, this isn’t about heterosexuality, it’s about something much larger. Read the text, this isn’t an invitation to engage in mutual, consensual sex. No, this is all about one thing, and one thing only… gang rape. “6 Lot went outside and shut the door behind him. 7 Then he said, “Friends, please don’t do such a terrible thing!” A “terrible” thing? Why is this terrible? Because this has nothing to do with consensual sex, or even sex at all. It has everything to do with malicious, victimizing, violent rape. That’s why. 8 I have two daughters who have never been married. I’ll bring them out, and you can do what you want with them. But don’t harm these men. They are guests in my home.” It’s so amazing to me what we have done with this story. Somehow, we have made it all about homosexuality, which it is not, and overlooked the obvious corruption of Lot, who is willing to hand over his two daughters to be gang raped. Are you kidding me? Handing your daughters over to be gang raped? Sadly, when people typically think of Sodom and Gomorrah, they never think about that. In fact, when Lot and his daughters depart out of the city, they decide to repay their father and rape him. Nice, right? Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth… rape for rape. See, this is not about homosexuality, this is about harm. This is about rape, this is about sexual violence. The evil aggression is dripping off the pages… 9 “Don’t get in our way,” the crowd answered. “You’re an outsider. What right do you have to order us around? We’ll do worse things to you than we’re going to do to them.” Here again, these violent demands to commit violent rape are coming from all the men of Sodom, not the gay community. And certainly, this is not a consensual arrangement being desired. No chance, no way. “The crowd kept arguing with Lot. Finally, they rushed toward the door to break it down.10 But the two angels in the house reached out and pulled Lot safely inside. 11 Then they struck everyone in the crowd blind, and none of them could even find the door. 12-13 The two angels said to Lot, “The Lord has heard many terrible things about the people of Sodom, and he has sent us here to destroy the city. Take your family and leave. Take every relative you have in the city, as well as the men your daughters are going to marry.” For God, when He hears the name Sodom, He has an entire list of “terrible things” in mind. Yet, interestingly, on that list is not homosexuality. In fact, Ezekiel 16:49 declares, “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.” “Overfed,” are you kidding me? We Christians, who for many of us, our favorite past time is to stuff our faces at the local Golden Corral to the point of chosen obesity after Sunday morning preaching. Seriously? We are looking for a condemnation of homosexuality in this passage that just isn’t there, while completely turning a blind eye to the “overfed” sin that God makes clear is certainly there. This is not a text about homosexuality, especially homosexual orientation. This is passage about the condemnation of violent sexual behavior. A condemnation of evil, father-daughter relationships. This is a story about the breaking of strict, cultural rules of hospitality. That’s the context, that’s the issue. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, when Jesus spoke of Sodom and Gomorrah, He did so to the disciples stating that if one goes into a town and people don’t receive them into their homes, it would be better for Sodom and Gomorrah on that day of judgment than it will be for the inhospitable. When Jesus, four times in the Gospels contextualizes the issue of Sodom and Gomorrah, He never mentions homosexuality. Rather, over and over again, He highlights the critical issue of hospitality. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah were not homosexually orientated, loving men. They were men who gathered outside Lot’s door, leaving their natural, heterosexual orientation to rape people as an act of humiliation and emasculation. This a story of deviant heterosexual males who were hell-bent on humiliating strangers by treating them as women. The evil desires of those men had nothing to do with genuine love being expressed between members of the same sex. Dr. Richard Haynes of Duke University, who is actually anti-gay, says the following… “The Sodom story is actually irrelevant to the topic of homosexuality. The attempted gang rape in Genesis 19 shows the depravity of the Canaanite people who lived in the cities of the plain but there is nothing in the passage pertinent to a judgment about the morality of consensual homosexual intercourse.” Dr. Richard Hayes –Duke University Bottle Two : Leviticus Lager of 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female: it is an abomination.” Leviticus 18:22 So here we are in Leviticus. Don’t be afraid, drink it in… The scholarship yields overwhelming, affirming evidence. The biblical, ancient, near Eastern context, as best we can investigate, was not familiar in any way shape or form with homosexuality in the sense of a defined sexual orientation a person embodies intrinsically. In the biblical assertion that “a man shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman” the disapproving assumption was, a man would leave his natural attraction towards a woman and emasculate another man. Here again, this text is about a forced act of humiliation and revenge. Not homosexuality. In fact, there is am entire holiness code at play here. If you keep reading further in Leviticus, (most stop after reading this singular verse) not only is the act of “a male lying with a male as with a woman” articulated as unorthodox, but all sexual acts that do not lead to procreation are declared an abomination. Ruh, roh Scooby. The Hebrew understanding of the time was that the male seed contained everything needed for human life. No knowledge of eggs or ovulation. It was assumed within the culture that a woman only provided the incubating space. This was once an Aristotelian world where he, one of the most brilliant minds of the millennia before Christ, suggested that a male seed exclusively produced a male being. Where did women come from? The same place that malformations came from. Genetic syndromes, those are all cousins to a female. Aristotle suggests that a male produces a male, but sometimes things go awry and a female is born. Folks, this is the context here. And if you take a text out of its context, you can make a con out of the text. To waste of male seed during a menstrual cycle, engage in autoeroticism. All was equivalent to murder because of the wasting of the male seed. Yet, if you still believe this passage is somehow addressing homosexuality, of which Moses and the Leviticus code had no knowledge. It doesn’t even mention female-to-female activity. Why? Here again, homosexuality is not the issue. Moses knew nothing of this, as we do today. In fact, if you believe this Leviticus stuff somehow addresses homosexuality, then you have to believe it all the way. So when later, the Leviticus code dictates that all kinds of like behaviors are punishable with death. Now you are going to have to jump on board with ISIS to align with this interpretive thinking. But, let me suggest, before you start killing all the homosexual people you believe this passage is addressing, you are going to be dead yourself. These same passages forbid many sexual practices and declare them to be punishable by death. Practices that are very likely accepted and practiced by you. Yes, you. One example. If a bride was found not to be a virgin before marriage, you simply brought her parents up on charges, as women were seen as property. She was taken to the city gate and stoned… to death. Now let me ask you, how many homosexual condemning females are out there who have had sex before marriage? How many homosexual condemning husbands are out there whose wives were not virgins at marriage? Need I say more. If you are looking for a condemnation of homosexuality, you are going to have to belly up to a different bar. Drink it in, Leviticus Lager of 18:12. A condemnation of homosexuality? It’s just not there. Bottle Three : Romans Imperial Stout 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. Now even if you just skimmed this passage, it’s obvious that within these verses is contained a long list of problems. Yet, many Christians, when they think of Romans 1, conveniently dismiss issues like gossip or slander, or any of the other many behaviors listed. Rather, this passage has become the biggest clobber text of those who desire to condemn one thing and one thing alone… homosexuality as a sin. Yet ironically, Paul does not even begin to indicate the issue of homosexual orientation or homosexuality. We know from history that Paul didn’t have any sense or knowledge of the idea and reality of homosexual orientation. In fact, if you know any gay people, you know that as early as they can remember, they didn’t choose their homosexuality. With tears running down their eyes, they beg to be understood, “Why would I ever choose this, in such a hateful world, why would I ever want to be gay?” Some committing suicide, others dealing with severe depression. The hell that we have brought upon so many with this passage (and others) from Scripture is disgusting at best. Folks, homosexuality isn’t an issue, it’s not a debate, it’s people. Living, breathing people. Beautifully and wonderfully made… gay. No choice, no sin, no different than the color of your skin. Paul had no reference for homosexuality, for homosexual orientation, or for romantic love between two people of the same sex. None. In fact, it was Paul, in a pre-scientific world, that reported he had an experience where he went up into the “third heaven.” Yet, we know now, that reality does not exist. Paul however didn’t, because he had no reference for that. It was a different day, in a different time. Paul once acknowledged… “From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once knew Christ from a human point of view, we know him no longer in that way.” 2 Corinthians 5:16 Paul is admitting that he not only once understood Christ incorrectly, he confesses that he also misunderstood humanity. Am I making a case to discredit Paul? No, but rather showing that contextually, this was a much different time with a much different window to the world. What Paul is doing in this Romans text is simple. He is condemning those with a heterosexual orientation, which came “naturally” to them, who were acting in homosexual ways. The text says plainly and clearly, they “exchanged, gave up.” You can’t exchange or give up what you don’t already have… heterosexuality. Their set, disposed, natural orientation… they exchanged that for homosexual acts. They went beyond their heterosexuality, out of power, hate, anger, or lust and acted homosexually. Paul new nothing of people who for them, “leaving” would mean leaving their natural homosexual attraction to exchange it for heterosexual attraction. I don’t know about you, but I have many gay friends. Some have asked, “Chris, when did you decide to be heterosexual?” “How would you like me to read you Romans 1 and then ask you to exchange your heterosexuality for homosexuality?” “Go over Chris and hold that man’s hand and kiss his lips. Do it, turn the switch, flip it over. And if you can’t, you are the evil, God hater of which this passage is speaking.” In fact, in 1 Corinthians 11, Paul, using the same term “unnatural,” said it was unnatural for a woman to cut her hair and pray without a head covering, and for a man to have long hair. He said it was “unnatural,” the same term he used in Romans 1. Yet, apparently we are very approving of those things now. Paul later said it was “unnatural” that the Gentiles be included in the church. Really? You know who the Gentiles are, don’t you? You and me. With new information, revelation, and experience, Paul realized on several occasions, in regards to some very important spiritual matters, he was wrong. Flat out, wrong. But even if you still believe somehow Paul is condemning homosexuality, you better keep reading. For the point of Romans 1 was to describe the evils of a Roman world. Even calling out an unspoken referencing to people like Gaius Caligula who, along with others, practiced most everything on the list of evils in the text. Additionally, making a reference to the Levitical list Paul’s Jewish audience would have known. Yet, the Romans 1 passage goes on, referring the reader back to this long list of atrocities… “Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.” Romans 2:1-2 Yes, you read it correctly. By our judging of anyone whom we think is on that list, we are actually practicing those very same things. That, my friends, is what you become. Don’t you just hate it when the Bible gets in the way of our self-righteous, condemnation. In fact, there is a real sense that when we ask gay people to leave their natural homosexuality and exchange it for heterosexuality, we are admonishing them to do the very “unnatural” thing this passage declares as evil and terrible. Take a moment, and drink all that in. Bottle Four : Corinthians Chocolate Porter “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals.” -1 Corinthians 6:8 Bottle Five : Saint Timothy IPA “9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.” -1Timothy 1:9-11 The words here in both passages (above) that have been translated as “homosexual’ is the Greek word “arsenokoites.” This is a hard word to translate to say the least. So difficult, that overtime the treatment of this word has moved from translation to interpretation. In fact, this word “arsenokoites” is so complicated that before 1946, no Bible translation had ever translated this word to read “homosexual.” I’ll give you a second to try pick up your jaw. Before 1946, the word “homosexual” was not even in the Bible. No place, no where. Only starting in the mid-20th century, several translations of 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 were changed to read “homosexuals” will not “inherit the kingdom of God.” A clear move from a translation to an interpretation. In fact, the word “homosexual” wasn’t even an actual word until the middle 1800’s. The word “arsenokoites,” many new testament scholars agree, is rarely used even in secular writings, and does not refer to homosexuality, nor even homosexual activity. Martin Luther, the Church reformer, translated these same passages to mean “boy abusers.” He understood “arsenokoites” as a reference to pedophilia. In fact, before 1945, nearly every bible translation interpreted “arsenokoites” as something to do with prostitution, pedophilia, and the like. Even the KJV did not translate “arsenokoites” as homosexuality, but rather in terms of elite, oversexed men abusing themselves with boys, girls, or animals. It was a practice widely accepted by rulers and ruling men of the day. Therefore, through the use of these two passages, Paul is bringing a strong condemnation on primarily elite men, who had never been confronted before, for leaving what is natural to them and sexually abusing just about anything they could find. Primarily, pedophilia. And let me tell you, there is a big difference between pedophilia and homosexuality. If you knew the kind of sexual practices that were going on during Paul’s time in the Greco Roman world, it was disgusting. Old, perverted men were treating boys like pigs. The people of this day didn’t have a heterosexual, homosexual perspective. It wasn’t them over here, and those over there. No, they had a heterosexual context where people exchanged that orientation and used acts of homosexuality to overpower with domination, humiliation, slavery, rape, and temple prostitution. We should all praise God for condemning those deplorable acts, but we have today with homosexuality, is completely and utterly not the same. And because of this, in recent years, many New Testament scholars have been pushing back against these translations. All because this word “arsenokoites” being translated to mean “homosexual” isn’t a translation, it’s a blatant, biased interpretation. Drink it in… Same-sex relationships, based on orientation, between equal-status partners weren’t on the radar screen at all. Neither the word “homosexual” nor the concept it represents existed when the Bible was written. It is high time we recognize, like Paul and others were willing to do so, we got it wrong. “My people are being destroyed from a lack of knowledge.” Hosea 4:6 Drink it in, drink it all in… Sodom and Gomorrah Summer Ale Leviticus Lager of 18:22 (20:13) Romans Imperial Stout Corinthians Chocolate Porter Saint Timothy IPA …a six pack of biblical, gay affirmation. Stay thirsty my friends. Stay thirsty. ................................................. ugh to the drinking alcohol metaphor substitute wholesome grape juice and pasty soy milk -GayatFootofCross

http://chriskratzer.com/what-if-youre-wrong-a-question-for-every-anti-gay-person-pastor-father-mother-friend/ What if you’re Wrong? A Question for Every Anti-Gay Person, Pastor, Father, Mother, Friend. Posted on October 2, 2015 by ckratzer So, you believe homosexuality is a sin, whether it be in practice, orientation, or both. Maybe you have studied the issue, or just assimilated the beliefs heard from others. If you have become familiar with any or all of the six passages in the Bible that seem to specifically address the issue, you interpret them as condemnations against homosexuality and proof that God declares it all as sin. From that belief, your actions and attitudes have formed. Perhaps you have adopted a posture that concludes the most faithful response to this issue is to “hate the sin and love the sinner.” It feels spiritual and gracious to you. Maybe you are even willing to go so far as to conclude for yourself and underscore to others an understanding that the sin of homosexuality is no greater than your’s or any other’s. Therefore, in your mind, homosexuals aren’t necessarily better or worse than you, just different in their sinning. In your church, family, or community they may even be, not only welcome, but wanted. Yet, at the end of the day, their homosexuality is seen as a sin problem nonetheless. Jesus died for “them,” just like He died for you. On the other hand, maybe you hate homosexuals and have no restraint in saying so with all the lingual colors afforded you. Confident in your biblical grooming, you may even assert that homosexuality is a special kind of sin, more sinful than any other. To you, all homosexuals are self-declared exclusively by choice. You may or may not, out of the kindness of your Christian heart, allow them in your presence or fellowship, but they are at best, a deplorable kind of abomination in your sight, and less than qualify for any kind of harbor, inclusion, or acceptance in your church, family, or community. With your Bible in hand, and perhaps a picket sign or two, you declare in either speech or action, “God hates fags” and therefore, deep down, at some level or another, so do you. Wherever you are on the spectrum of response, at the end of the day, in your judgement, homosexuality is a sin, it’s never acceptable to God nor is it ever His will or within His design. Therefore, “repentance” is ultimately the only answer, whether empowered by Grace or Law or some mixture thereof… change, confess, move away from sin, apply the power of Jesus to overcome, turn or burn… however you want to put it …that’s the answer, that’s the cure. Until then, there is still a “problem,” an “issue,” an “abnormality,” a “sin.” My question for you is… what if you’re wrong? I know, it’s all so clear to you. The biblical texts, the studies, the nature of it all. But, what if you’re wrong? What if it’s not so clear, the studies not so definitive, the unnatural not so unnatural. What if you’re wrong, like Paul in Scripture, who actually believed it was “unnatural” for the Gentiles to accept Christ and be included in the fellowship of believers? By the way, you know who the Gentiles are? You. What if you’re wrong, like countless Christians throughout history who read your same Bible and vehemently concluded its support for racism and slavery? What if you’re wrong, like court reporters and clerks in the 1960’s who, citing Biblical grounds, refused to document and issue interracial marriage certificates because they believed them to be committing sin? What if you are wrong, like the Southern Baptist denomination, who finally in 1995, apologized to the black community for its role in using the Bible to endorse racism and slavery? What if you are wrong, like the Pharisees, who believed they knew and lived the Scriptures better than anyone, but were shown out by Jesus to not only be in biblical error, but completing absent of understanding in regards to His heart and essence? I mean, just imagine if Hitler had only considered, “maybe I am wrong about the Jews” Imagine if the Christian theologian John Calvin had only considered, “maybe I didn’t read this text right?” before brutally burning one of his critics to death, all in the name of biblical faithfulness mind you. Imagine, just imagine. Imagine, if you’re wrong about homosexuality and homosexuals. What if ignorance has eclipsed your understanding, not unlike the kind Hosea spoke of as the prime destroyer of people? What if mistranslation, proof texting, and a lack of proper contextualization has rendered the Scripture as saying that which God never meant it to? What if your unyielding grip on inerrancy has become in fact, your own spiritual death hold? What if your fear of being wrong and therefore having to deconstruct and rebuild one’s heart, mind, and faith is preventing you from the guidance of the Spirit? What if peer pressure and the gravity to conform to the prevailing Christian “norm” is squelching the wind of Jesus from His revelation in and transformation of your life? What if homosexuality isn’t a sin, and now you don’t have a “sin” that you are confident can never and will never apply to you from which to comfortably condemn others and drink from the intoxicating chalice of self-righteousness that medicates your own inner shame, insecurity, condemnation, and guilt? What if, like your heterosexuality, it’s not a choice, any more than the color of your eyes? What if… you’re wrong? If I am wrong, the Holy Spirit will simply pursue me with correction, go around and ahead me to thwart the misleading, and work in the lives of homosexuals to lead them to “repentance.” However, if you’re wrong… You have condemned, marginalized, persecuted, and falsely judged an entire group of God-imaged people. You have labeled as sin, that which is not. Some of you have disowned your own children. Labeling them, casting them out. While God declares “I will never leave you nor forsake you” you have abandoned, or at best, distanced yourself from that which God purposed you to forever enwrap. You have put barbed-wire fences where God meant for tables. You have been a contributor to the depression, the isolation, the terror, the suicide, and the living hell of countless people. You have participated in nothing less than the new racism of the 21st Century. And worst of all, you have joined the choir of the False Accuser, singing songs of pure evil, believing them to be hymns of the Savior that reflect His heart and mind. You have partnered with Satan in the stealing, killing, and destroying of an entire population of God’s beloved. …all, in the name of Jesus and biblical faithfulness. Honestly, I am o.k. if somehow it turns out I’m wrong. My question for you is, how can you ever be o.k. with the possibility… you are?

even the old hymns can sometimes be inappropriate in church... Consider: A preacher was winding up his temperance sermon with great fervor: "If I had all the beer in the world, I'd take it and throw it into the river." And the congregation cried, "Amen!" "And if I had all the wine in the world, I'd take it and throw it in the river." And the congregation cried, "Amen!" "And if I had all the whiskey and demon rum in the world, I'd take it all and throw it in the river." And the congregation cried, "Hallelujah!" The preacher sat down. The song leader stood up very tentatively and announced: "For our closing song, let us sing hymn #365, 'Shall We Gather at the River.'"

I agree with AS' post. If you dont like the (insert your own dislike - music, semons, culture, pastor, head elder, carpet color, etc.) in the church you're attending, find a church you like, or support the church your in regardless of your preferences. I guarantee that you will never find a church where you agree with 100% of what is going on; especially if you are looking for things that don't fit your personal "model" of a true believer or organization. I personally see nothing wrong with getting emotionally involved in worship. I like contemporary Christian music a lot. It makes me feel closer to God. If I wast to raise my hands, jump up and down and spin around, and "shake like I've been changed" (see Mercy Me YouTube video if you're unfamiliar with that expression), I will. I think we are supposed to get excited during worship. Look at the scenes of heavenly worship in Revelation. To me, it more closely resembles a Spirit-filled charismatic service than the usual quiet somber quiet one sees in a traditional caucasian SDA service.

Although there is no real Temple Sanctuary at this time where people can come into the physical presence of the LORD, most religions make some sort of attempt to represent it in their church buildings. Now, Jesus had to throw out the merchants who were creating marketplace bedlam in the Temple courts, and perhaps if he walked into one of the church services described above, he might knock over drum sets and guitar amps and stare down the dancers until everything was so quiet you could hear a pin drop, or perhaps not. We should realize that church services were created by men who may or may not FEAR the LORD, but the real Sanctuary points us to the real Kingdom. There might be some mind-blowing music to dance by, and there might not, in the Kingdom of the Stars. Today, maybe some feel closer to the LORD in a party atmosphere while others prefer quiet reverence in their worship. If a person is repulsed by the music and dancing in church, they should find other like-minded individuals and join them for worship in small groups in their homes or in nature. Not to mention the Darth Vader Memorial Organ at the PUC mega-church. (The organ pipe arrangement in the front of the church resembles the head of Darth Vader.) The powerful pipe organ music does tend to catch one's attention. If only all of the sick and starving children and people of the world could listen to the majestic chords of a church pipe organ, then they would feel better.

Stephen Haskell was sent to the Muncie, Indiana, camp meeting of 1900 to file a report on the music. He wrote: “We have a big drum, two tambourines, a big bass fiddle, two small fiddles, a flute and two cornets, and an organ and a few voices. They have Garden of Spices as the song book and play dance tunes to sacred words.” (Ella Robinson, S. N. Haskell Man of Action, p. 168.) If you look at the Garden of Spices songbook, it has such dastardly hymns as "He Leadeth Me," "Jesus Lover of My Soul," "Holy, Holy, Holy," and "Onward, Christian Soldiers." https://archive.org/stream/gardenofspicesch00nels#page/32/mode/2up I personally enjoy loud booming pipe organ music in church... just can't beat "For All the Saints" or Handel's "Messiah" on the WWU College Church organ with Dr. Melvin West doing his magic!!!

Hi LifeHiscost! great seeing you here again of all places. Don't you mind that people might talk. Lotta great stuff there! I read Psalms 119 in different versions for a time for days (still do .even in the past week) as part of seeking His will. Penetrating! Still one of my faves..never tire of His work on my heart in that long long chapter. BIBLE GATEWAY is my goto if and when i study on the WEB. And John and Luke being number one in looking at JESUS walk and talk. Still don't understand the avoidance of the topic at hand. You are posting on a thread relating to the 'I' in the LGBTIQQAA You do know where u are at. the gay.gender part of the SDA FORUM where dragqueens and gogo boys meet for tea and crumpets looking for JESUS in the flesh! You can say anything you want here. Me ... I will continue to share JESUS in relation to the Wellness and Affirm the Wholeness of Gods Great love for the LGBTIQQAA people who are already fearfully and wonderfully made in HIS IMAGE. # where is that bathtub filled with holy water?