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I originally joined because I was just about ready to dump the church, and return to witchcraft. C/A literally pulled me back.

I am here because I needed a friend or two in the church. I needed a place where I could speak freely the things that are on my mind--without the fear of judgment. I am here because I have made friends over the years. I am here because I need Jesus.

I've been a denizen since fairly early on, and am coming up on 15,000 posts now. I come here to think with friends, and have learned a heap and (I hope) grown over the years. 'Iron sharpens iron', as the Book says, and we learn... perhaps most from those with whom we disagree. There are ways to disagree without being disagreeable, and I always try to and aspire to, but sometimes fall short. I hope I apologise and withdraw the comments when I fail, but even better not to have made it in the first place. Like all of us, I'm still growing up.

C/A means different things to different people. What's your reason for becoming a member of ClubAdventist? Friendship? Comfort? Acceptance? Assistance or request for prayer? Needing an answer or opinion to a troubling question? Proffering a new theological idea? Debate? Share a laugh? Confrontation? Other? (most of us would probably list more than one reason. But there are a few whose reason really eludes me. Why would anyone come on a friendly forum and immediately proceed to be obnoxious, bully, and generally behave as if they had never before had any training in the social graces?)

I joined at the invitation of one of the moderators, who read my posts on another forum. I too was about to jump ship because of the hypocrisy I perceived at all levels of the church; and the problems I had with some of the "cultural" interpretations of the 28 Fundies. A very kind and concerned member of this forum took the time to go through each of the Fundies with me as posted on the official church website. I couldn't find any fault in the way they were actually stated, so I postponed leaving. As I started posting more, I found some wonderful, smart, open-minded people here; as well as those who believe differently than I do. The ones that have mastered the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable have inspired me to study more. I still have issues with the way some of the more traditional folks see things; but I'm sure there are those that have issues with my viewpoint. As long as the differences of opinion inspire spirited conversation and deeper study, that's a good thing IMHO. This actually has sorta become my home church. I spend more time with CA than I do my local congregation. I am blessed to be here.

What is your definition of "lifestyle"? It is my belief that the Bible condemns having sexual relations between two men or two women. It does not condemn being being homosexual. If two men or two women are living together, how does one know if those individuals are having gay sex, other than they themselves telling you, or you viewing it yourself, in person? *Assuming* the worst of people isn't godly, in my opinion. I'm not naive. I know what the possibilities are behind closed doors. But it's not my business to be the investigator of sexual conduct between people.

That posts makes this whole event worthwhile. Thank you Pam

This is fair enough. What has been happening too often is that people are assuming here that Gay is currently practising homosexual behaviour and addressing him based on their assumption AND accusing him of promoting the lifestyle. I would like to see: 1) That the threads that are engaged at the moment stay on topic and not delve into whether Gay is practising or not. Feel free to PM Gay to discuss that privately with him. 2) Address the issues he raises in this forum regarding the church and relating to GBLTs. This minority group will not go away and they are a big mission field on their own. We as Christians are called to love even our enemy; we need to be informed as to their personal struggles in order to bring them in. There is much that Jesus can do for them if church members would stop forming doors and walls to keep them out.

I look upon being here as a ministry.

Because I believe, they can hide behind there "avatar" and not have to be face to face!!

Sing it brother, sing it!

I like hearing others peoples experience or the way they think about different issues and ways of life. I don't care for preaching or the 'it has to be this way'. Finding a world outside of 'being scared conservatism' was awesome, so I enjoy outside the box thinking. Have always been a bit of a question type of person...a way to learn.

While this may be a passing thought easily dismissed by most here apparently, I think it does deserve at least a closer look. It does illustrate yet another set of assumptions that are made, including by translators of the original Hebrew. We easily assume only a male gender specific meaning of the English word "men" by itself and assume the point of the sentence in context is to identify the gender of the three visitors that appear to Abraham and then the two later to Lot. However, both the English word "men" or the singular "man" and the Hebrew words so translated can be and are frequently used in a gender inclusive sense and to mean "mankind" "human" "people". A key underlying point of the narrative in Genesis 18, is that at their initial appearance to both Abraham and later to Lot was that they did not appear in angelic form, but rather they appeared in human form and were greeted and treated as such. The reaction to them would very likely have been quite different had they not appeared as humans. That was a point of the story, treatment of strangers and visitors in our midst, contrasting the immediate welcome and offer of kindness and hospitality by Abraham and Lot with the extreme opposite reaction of the already condemned mob of people of Sodom. It is also worth noting that the attacking hostile Sodom mob is described as a mixed multitude of not just men, but as all the people of Sodom, young and old, male and female. They were not just men. I am not posting this to start an argument or to even support the side point David makes, but rather to demonstrate the role our assumptions and preconceived ideas play in reading and understanding, and indeed in general observations of life. Life and language are most definitely fraught with ambiguity, uncertainty, nuance and require far more interpretation of what we think we perceive. We cannot assume absolute accuracy and precision, nor that there is ever only one possible absolute truth of very much of any of it.

agreed...

I did relish the the thought for three seconds then remembered... in Gen 18 it says Abraham saw three men after the meal the two went down to Sodom while Abraham begged for Sodom's People cause that is what LOVE DOES! If it didn't say three men ..we could have started a new Church with a very different narration of the events #a NEW revelation

'Cherry pick' may be an emotive way to put it, but there are 0 Christians who take every word of the Bible literally and live it all. None of them sacrifice animals, stone people to death for a wide range of offenses or exclude women from the workplace during their period. People will come back and say 'ceremonial law, only for Israel'... and those texts are right near the ones about homosexuality in Leviticus. It's the simple truth: no-one accepts 100% of the Bible at face value. Many will say 'yes, but *my* set of guidelines for choosing which bits I follow are Biblical, *yours* are just what you decide'... but that is itself a disputable matter.

Interesting to note that the 'strong' in Romans 14 are those with the less-orthodox position, while the 'weak' are the more-orthodox.

The bible is beginning to sound like a buffet menu that you can go thru and sample and pick what pleases you.Leaving anything that doesn't please you on the tray

Well said, Gail. I can't remember the show I saw it in, but one of the actors said: "Ever since I was a kid, I wanted a sailboat. I prayed and prayed for one, but God never came through. Then I realized God doesn't work that way. So I just stole a sailboat and asked God for forgiveness." Wrong take on theology; but that line always stuck with me for some reason. On the serious side, when we confess, He is faithful to forgive our sins and cleanse us from unrighteousness. That promise is true (everything God says is automatically true). If we believe it, we must not only believe that God has forgiven our sin, but we must forgive ourselves; and seek forgiveness from those whom we have wronged. As we forgive, so will we be forgiven. Want to be assured of forgiveness of confessed sin? Be a merciful forgiver yourself! "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy".

In a word, ego, Gail.

It's a speculative thing, not something I'm advancing as an argument. Apart from Earth-centrism, there's no good prima facie reason to assume they are gendered. The Bible doesn't seem to say they aren't but doesn't say they are. Others have demonstrated that the Bible does say they presented as men in this story. I still maintain that the story is about condemning rape and - in context but bizarrely for us - inhospitability, not homosexuality.

It certainly does.

Marri, I must say you have a very interesting take on things - one I haven't seen much before. I agree with you strongly on some points, disagree with some; and don't know what to think about others. If I could gently suggest that you shorten your posts a little. They are so long, and you have an "interesting" grammatical style that an old guy like me has difficulty understanding. By the time I get to the end of your posts, I forgot what the beginning was about. You have obviously studied much.

they're good people! Clarence is one smart cookie!

I miss Clarence and his wife Diana... They had awesome sermons

I often wonder this as well. I grew up SdA. I was a spiritual child. Prayer and Bible study were part of my daily routine. God was real to me. When I sinned I felt great guilt and felt the hurt I believed I inflicted on Jesus. In my mid-20s I read through the Bible and noted for the first time the plethora of contradictions, internal inconsistencies and pure nonsense. My faith was shaken and it never recovered. Back then, there was no internet and I didn't have Biblical research materials at hand. My Bible and a Strong's concordance was all I had. I felt like I was the first to have discovered these problem texts in the Bible. By age 30 I realized I was an atheist. From age 30 to 40 my life was filled with ups and downs, modest successes and monumental failures; anxiety and depression were never far away. My marriage was strained. Yet despite all the problems I got myself in, a solution often appeared, often through no extraordiary effort on my part. It was as if someone, something was watching over me (and then I wonder, why me? and not someone else; why would God favour me, after I turned my back on Him, while others suffer? Has divine favour smiled on me, or am I just lucky). At age 40 I returned to church. After a few years, my marriage was back on solid ground, my children were growing up happy and healthy, life was better. I still doubt, but I practice my religion - I study, I teach, I preach, I pray, I tithe. I still have lingering doubts and I wonder if my renewed faith is but a psychological coping mechanism for me. I love our church, our church members and our community of faith. But I cannot help wondering if it is not a delusion. So my prayer remains - Lord, I believe; help my unbelief.

Some people assume that leading a horse to water is always easily and simply done or that there is only one way to do so and that they indeed know how to lead the horse to water, and others assume throwing water on the horse is the same as giving the horse water to drink and that it will achieve the same results.

Amen! Every word we say represents our GOD to others!

Kevin(wrx) I see I have offended you a time ago and I ask that you forgive me. [tips hat]

The angels did not come in angelic form. The people were not wanting a supernatural experience with beings of another planet. The Bible is clear: they looked like men. In fact, very ordinary men. Rereading the story might refresh our memories, but it's a little long, so I'll quote just a few pertinent texts. "And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said." (Genesis 18:2-5) This is the very story that gets referenced in the New Testament again, which says: "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." (Hebrews 13:2) Obviously, these did not look like angels if Abraham was unaware of it. After Abraham had entertained them, they went on their way. "And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD." (Genesis 18:22) While the two angels were going on their mission toward Sodom, Abraham bargained with God in that now-famous plea for God to spare the city. As we know, not even ten were found righteous there, and it was not spared. No, the story of Sodom had nothing to do with angel sex. It had everything to do with homosexual desire. The men outside did not know they were asking for angels. They perceived only ordinary men, just as both Abraham and Lot had perceived. Lot did not know the true character of the men until they had blinded the crowd outside. The story has been left on record for our admonition.

As I noted in the other thread: what makes you assume that angels are male? Also, Lot's offer of his daughters suggests that it was (violent) sex that the crowd wanted, not specifically sex with men. You seem to be projecting onto the story something that isn't there.

Did you read the story about Sodom? Do you realize those perverse men who came to Lot's house wanting the male guests he had invited inside refused to accept Lot's daughters in their place? Their intentions to have homosexual sex can hardly be more clear. And this is not about homosexuality? What does it take to make something about homosexuality?

David, Those making a claim for a mixed bag do have a valid point but they are not looking at a big enough picture. Of course it is rather easy to see that in terms of technology we are improving greatly with very little of the "two steps forward and one step back" thing occurring where people can see it. But I get the impression you intended that we address our spiritual an moral condition. If we look at the historical trend since God first brought the nation/church out of Egypt is greatly improved. Naturally, when you look at a scale that large you will see a lot of large ups and downs over considerable lengths of time that seem to defy the general trend if you only look at the last 20 or 100 years. Few people can actually even see that last 100 years with any real accuracy. Prophetically this is easy to see if you have any understanding at all of the doctrine of sonship, Most Christians, Adventists included, have no understanding of the doctrine of sonship. This doctrine is found by comparing the doctrine of the feast days, Israel's journey from Egypt to the Promised Land and a number of other rituals that prophesy of the same things from different perspectives. This comparison gives us an amazingly clear perspective of the doctrine which both Jesus and Paul reference from time to time. Simply put our spiritual journey begins when we are "born again." The actual terminology is begotten from above and so more accurately shows conception, not birth, and some of the other types make more sense if we view them as being the journey from conception to birth rather than from birth to adoption as a fully mature son of God. Yet because none of these types and shadows fully illustrate the matter on their own God provides us with multiple types which we must overly one on top of the other to understand the matter more completely. We are still only playing with children's toys and cannot see any of this clearly (1 Corinthians 13:8-12). At some point we must put away the toys and begin to use the real spiritual concepts. With Passover we have the feast that represents being born again, or conceived from above. This is righteousness by faith, or the baptism of John which is a baptism of water for repentance. This is accepting the word of God as true (smearing the blood on the doorposts, leaving Egypt on the first day of Unleavened Bread (studying only the pure word of God) and entering the wilderness, journeying to the Red Sea and being baptized on the third day as the wave sheaf offering (resurrection), moving on to the eight day with circumcision, about the 30th day receiving the manna and quail (Exodus 16) and with the the Sabbath revelation. Each of these things represents a journey to a certain level of spiritual maturity, and a rite of passage that comes on the 50th day after the Red Sea (resurrection) experience. I won't continue this list of types with the other feasts but I do it here to show the level of detailed study necessary if you wish to understand these things. Here we have the rite of passage that is called the Bar Mitzvah (son of the law) ceremony. Unlike the circumcision and adoption ceremonies which are directly referenced in scripture, this one is not directly referenced, but we are told that after this passage all the males were required to travel to the tabernacle (later the temple) to keep the three primary feasts in the presence of God. And we see an example of this rite in the ceremony at Sinai where God came down to the mountain and spoke directly to the people. We see this as a marriage ceremony. We see it as the Feast of Weeks which is also called the firstfruits of the wheat harvest or simply wheat harvest, Pentecost (50th). We see it as the baptism of fire and spirit. We see it as the first of two feasts Israel refused to fulfill in their day because of lack of faith. Because they refused to hear God's voice for themselves they did not receive the Holy Spirit and when they finally did go into the Promised Land had to conquer it by the use of the physical sword instead of the use of the sword of the spirit (the word of God.) They could only bring a physical death instead of the second death which is the lake of fire and is shown in John's baptism as repentance, Justification and full surrender to God. Because they refused to hear God's voice the fulfillment of this feast had to wait for another time nearly 1500 years later. Because verifiable history during these 1500 years and even the time before them is scant at best it can be hard to gauge just how much effect this new work of God had in the world. In 33 AD when the spirit came down first on 120 people at 9:00 AM when the priest waved the barley sheaf before the veil in the temple the great wind attracted many people to the house where the 120 were worshiping. They went out into the street and prophesied among the people, converting 3000 of them that day and thousands more over the next days weeks and months So the church began changing for the better immediately, but in the old order portion of it the corrupt priesthood remained in charge and things very quickly went bad for the church of Pentecost because of the persecution by the priests.. I can assure you that those subjected to this persecution in no way considered the world to be better because of their experience. Yet because of the persecution they were driven from Jerusalem and the new philosophy peace spread. Although it took time through the influence of Christianity in Europe we can see a general improvement in the way people treated each other. There is a story in the writings of Herodotus that show similar improvement occurred in some places with the scattering of the House of Israel many years earlier which also caused the law of God to gain a limited influence in some areas. Of course the church being overrun by fleshly leadership meant many of the gains were lost for a period of over 1000 years, but the general trend has been upward and now we are on the edge of the fulfillment of the Autumn Feast Days which prophesy of the resurrection and the second coming. There is one more thing to be aware of. All of God's time cycles are probationary periods, sometimes between a complaint being made and a conviction, and sometimes between a conviction and the execution of a sentence. These are grace periods during which a sinner, whether individual or nation, can repent or refuse to repent. If they repent God will either turn aside the punishment or set a lower level of punishment. If they refuse to repent God assesses the full punishment against them. During this time he sends tests to reveal their heart condition. Ezekiel and Jeremiah were contemporaries, each prophesying right before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. In Ezekiel 8 God showed Ezekiel the detestable sins the people were committing in the temple. In symbol Ezekiel saw them as being done in hidden and darkened rooms, showing that these sins were done in secret. Through Jeremiah God sent the people many tests to reveal their sins and show whether they would repent or not. When my probationary period is coming to a close God sends tests to bring my sins into the open. To the casual observer it will definitely appear like I have become worse but those evils were already there, and many times I knew of them. Sometimes due to my own lack of honesty even with myself I had no idea those sins existed. Either way, they were already there and always have been there to be seen by any who really care to take a close look. Most of the time our hidden sins are not all that hidden, it is just that everyone else is willing to be fooled by the facade we raise up to hide them. With the facade removed our nakedness shows and only the most gullible and unwilling to see will fail to recognize the evil within us. Judah fit this description of being the most gullible and unwilling to see, both in 589 BC and in AD 70. The church is doing a fairly good job of that now, having no difficulty seeing the sins of the world, but absolutely refusing to see their own, yet those sins within the church are becoming extremely obvious to the world. Thus it does seem as though things are worse now than they were just a few years ago.

Yes, I said that assuming the worst about someone was not godly. It wasn't meant specifically for you.

Just a side thought I had: why do we assume the angels in Sodom were male? Angels may well be sexless, since there is no marrying and giving in marriage in heaven. We don't even know that they presented as male, I don't think.

There is only one way out of this mess. Jesus Himself I look for every opportunity to post this " When you go into your prayer closet and thru out the day..among all the tears and disappointments of yourself/others and lifting up and blessing others before HIM and Worship of HIM ..In Thanksgiving and Praise.... imagine GOD Himself delighting in you as you are and where you stand. Understanding Wherever you go HE is there with you Whatever you are doing whatever you are thinking (good.bad.indifferent) .. HE Is In your face with NonCondemnation. God's thoughts of you are so precious as many as the sands of the sea(Psalms 139). There is no where you can go without HIM..HE by your side Even in your complete darkness He is there! No matter how far you run (into self pity or addiction or self loathing or loathing of others) He is not going to leave you.. HIS right Hand holds you!!! He sings and dances over you regardless of who u r or what you have done..Cause that is How HE IS..That's what LOVE Does! To get this ..gets everything the Spirit has promised you. It is your jumping off point every morning and thru the Day! It is what draws others to you .. and to HIM and that Brings even more JOY. More of this draws you to HIM in abounding Joy. And being around others who are so JESUS Center also spurs you on even more so in your Healing and Growth..One of the great Reasons to FELLOWSHIP! It is irresistible! If I (JESUS) be lifted up .. I will draw all! " .................... When faced with this JESUS.... The veil has been lifted into God's heart of heart towards you no mattre what u have done! You run to HIM with every confession!

Wow, actually blew right through 15,000 posts without noticing!

Does this apply to the poster as well? Then don't marry a gay man and you have done your christian duty according to your conscience. And God calls you to love and serve and bless those that disagree with your understanding of the Holy Bible at the same time! May the Joy of the Lord be your Strength.! Live your life as you believe you should and love and serve those that disagree with you without the constant condemnation of everyone that opposes a gay lifestyle "It is a mantle not easy to wear! " Neither is the "mantle of being labeled unchristian or homophobic because one may actually believe the bible condemns such a llifestyle

I think it is the fear of condemnation or punishment or God's anger that causes us not to face our guilt. But... God is the One offering forgiveness and cleansing! Why should we hang on to shame when He makes it better?

the GOP will evolve... just as the Democratic Party evolved from what it was a number of years ago..

My fruit trees are in full bloom. This is the earliest ever in the 10 years I've been in NC.

the feeling of this thread makes me want to break out in song in the grassy hills like Julie Andrews # twirl!

I just mowed my lawn again today... 2nd time this year! Gorgeous day in the Pacific NW today!

When looking at the exit poll results from Tuesdays voting, nearly all of the voting results showed that the higher the education level of voters, the less voted for Trump.

Read More Daily Jesus More Sabbath School Resources Preparation Day Bonus * - Teaching a great Sabbath School lesson - * Scripture: Isaiah 14:12-14 Starting Question: Have you had an experience where something that you thought was only affecting other people started to affect you? How did it change your interest and involvement in the situation? War on Earth ** Continued from War in Heaven yesterday ** The dark army was largely out numbered—three to one. The battle raged for a very long time. Finally, all but one of the dark beings had been pushed out of Heaven. Michael faced the dragon with new resolve. The dragon lunged and attacked with seven heads at once. Michael stepped under the heads and drove his sword into the heavily plated chest of the dragon. The force of the blow propelled the beast backward a few steps. The dragon teetered at the edge of Heaven. Its taloned feet clawed the ground trying to regain a foothold. Seven sets of draconic eyes fixed on Michael who stood, breathing heavily, leaning on His sword as if it were a walking stick. He watched as the dragon struggled to get a grip on Heaven. But, it was not to be. The dragon fell. Like a lead weight dropped from the top of a building, the dragon plummeted toward the Earth. Stars rushed past like well-lit windows on a midnight expressway. The moon approached and rushed past. The dragon wasn’t flying. It was more like it had been thrown at great speed. It’s wings flailed as it tried to right itself—too late. With a bone shattering, wing-snapping, teeth-grinding thud the dragon smashed into the dessert. The Earthbound dragon climbed out of the crater created by the impact, only to see the woman walking away from him. He erupted with a thunderous roar that shook the desert. The woman ran. She didn’t stand a chance. The dragon clawed the ground as he ran after her. As he gained on the woman, she leapt into the air, two huge wings sprouting from her back. The dragon leapt up, flying behind her. Taking seven huge breaths at once, the dragon released a torrent of water from each mouth. The streams joined together to make a tsunami in the desert. The huge wave rushed toward the woman, dwarfing her in its impressive shadow. A tremendous earthquake shook the desert floor creating a massive network of cracks and chasms. The water plummeted into the thirsty ground and gurgled into silence. The woman had vanished—hidden by the same hand that protected the baby. The dragon landed and searched the chasm that had inhaled the tidal wave. In frustrated anger one of the dragon’s heads bit another. That head took a bite back. Soon the dragon was engaged in all out war on itself, necks intertwining, razor sharp teeth snapping. Finally the dragon stilled and quizzically stared into the distance, beyond the desert, through time itself. Taking a couple of unsure steps in our direction, all seven heads scanned the ground, confident there was something in the desert dust not far away. The heads rose as one, with new resolve. This old Earth wasn’t barren after all. The great red dragon-—focusing on your scent and mine—charged, it’s huge claws indiscriminately throwing clouds of sand to the left and the right. Reflection Question: What happened to your attention level when you read that the dragon smelled you and is running toward you? Did the story take on new importance? Why? Prayer time: Before you pray together, ask: What would you like to say to Jesus today? -x-x-x-x-X-x-x-x-x GET ONE OF DAVE'S BOOKS, FREE! Support this project by clicking here and pledging a small monthly amount. View the full article

Green said: Here is where you became more clear. Temptation, in itself, is not sin. To dwell on something is a choice.

Joe, Physical cravings, aka withdrawal symptoms, are not a sin, as I see it, but simply an effect of sin. One does not have such withdrawal symptoms without an equally-strong desire to be free of the addiction--and it is this desire that the Lord looks at and sees as "repentance." Conversely, to desire to have the addicting "drug" (or sex, food, etc.) from a mental standpoint, not simply a physical craving, is sin. Consider the words of James on this question: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15) Temptation itself is not a sin. Dwelling on the temptation, and lusting for it, is. This is why the Bible tells us to "flee temptation" to "resist the devil" and so on. If we have a heart filled with desire to follow God, and have truly repented, He will have given us new desires such that the temptation itself will make us cringe, and we will be repulsed by the thought of continuing in that direction. Blessings, Green Cochoa.

I am either saved or lost. There is no such thing as being saved until Jesus' blood washes my sins away and casts them into the depths of the sea. That doesn't happen until I confess my sins and receive the repentance Jesus is willing to give to the soul (person) accepting it. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.....1 John 1 God is Love!~Jesus saves!

The REVIEW has posted my comment on their website, today.

Claudia Burrows: YEs, her name will be ever associated with that of Venden. In fairness to the truth that must be recognized. Frankly, I believed Claudia; to me, her story fit a pattern that I had seen before. However, I will say that Venden was a great man in leading the denomination to a greater understanding of grace and Righteousness by faith. How to I draw these conflicting aspects together: Simply that God uses imperfect people.