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The phrases: "The good I would do, this I do not do" and "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" illustrate the fact that we are all too human and we sin. Condoning sin is not to struggle in giving our nature over to God's Spirit so that He can say no to the desires of the flesh. If there's no struggle then the mind and the flesh are in harmony. According to Paul this is men's preconverted state. (see Eph 2:3) So I, along with the Bible (especially Paul - see Romans chapter 7), have sympathy and understanding. Yes. You can question my motives all you desire, but only God knows my motives. So why go there? Keep in mind those 3 fingers pointing back.... I don't hate homosexuals. I can't condone their lifestyle as I can't condone adultery even though I myself have committed physical adultery in the past. Also keep in mind that if I look at a woman with lust I have committed adultery. Christ has forgiven me 70x7 and He will do the same for the struggling homosexual. Can I relate to homosexuality? No.

Words such as "concede that you were mistaken", turn a discussion into a CONTEST. It's like we are back in kindergarten. One kid pins another one down and shouts, "Give! Give!". This is NOT a DEBATE contest. This is a discussion. You absolutely believe that you are "correct" because you absolutely believe that Ellen White was a prophet of God. Because you believe you are "correct", you keep trying to "pin me down". I do not believe that we will fully understand the prophecies of Daniel (and Revelation) until they are fulfilled just prior to Jesus' return. For now, we try to connect dots, and see where the weight of the evidence is pointing. There is no way - at this time - to say whether my current understanding of these prophecies is "correct".

Thanks, GM for your comments. They are very important as I believe that all to often the Bible has been used to overlook abuse or down play such. We do God a deep, deep disservice when attempting to use the Bible in any way that justifies abuse....of any kind.

Spellbinding! I found myself rooting for the red marble... I feel like a winner!

This link below isn't from an SDA source/author/artist, but I still recommend it. http://adam4d.com/dont-hate/ Update: Here's a new comic on the subject, by the same artist.

maybe I'm easily amused, but this fascinated me!

My point had zero to do with condoning: it was about understanding. It is possible to understand something without supporting it. The fact that you want to double down on your lack of empathy, rather than challenge it through personal growth, is telling in itself... and calls the objectivity of your Bible study into question. If you are motivated by a visceral dislike of homosexuality, you are much more prone to motivated reasoning and confirmation bias.

Yes, that is all true. That is not what I am talking about and thank you, CoAspen, for asking for clarification. As I thought I said in the OP, I had been meditating on Christ's suffering and His words. I believe there IS persecution that is brought upon one's self for reasons that are NOT biblical. There is no reason to invite persecution, say, for creating a time of trouble before the time of the real one. Or for needling nor nagging. If a person behaves without discretion then s/he will reap what is sown. But as I was thinking about Jesus' case, He was tortured and killed without just cause. I had the idea that His example would be for those who have undergone and still are undergoing torture and sacrifice and who have no say in the matter nor power to withstand. At first I carried the thought over to those of the early church. Then those in the Dark Ages. And it still goes on today, note the Christians who cried out the name of Jesus before the ISIS guys beheaded them. I saw Jesus fortitude and patience and attitude as being an example to those who would be called to suffer for His name. And we might get a turn yet! In our land with the freedoms we have there is much we can safely protest. But Jesus made it clear that not only those who suffered for Him WOULD suffer in this life, but that they also would be at peace, even happy, for doing so. Paul got that; it was his experience, too. Jesus was mocked for not defending Himself. And since He was innocent He could have appealed to Pilate. Pilate was convinced of His innocence. What the Jews were doing was not only inhumane but illegal. We could argue that it was Jesus' purpose, his raison d'etre, to die that horrible death. But I see something more, and perhaps my mind is working overtime. I see Him again entering into the worst situation any of us could enter and fellowshipping with us at the very highest level of suffering for sin. He takes on the role of the supreme Servant. He was only One of thousands who died innocently because no one showed up to fight for their rights. He had all the power of heaven at His disposal, and He refused it. He will have His justice, but it will only come to realisation way after the fact. And He calls the suffering ones blessed. It was just a big, incredible thought.

Read More Daily Jesus Scripture: Psalm 33:6 Starting Question: Imagine being able to create anything by just speaking. What would you speak into existence? Handmade by God The sixth day of Creation week emerged as a beautiful cool morning. The sun, rising in the east, shone on the Creator’s back forming a long wispy shadow in front of Him. He seemed to be studying His shadow with a concerted effort. The corners of His mouth turned up in a gentle smile. As the smile spread across the Creator’s face, the area where His shadow fell and a border area around His shadow, turned to reddish dirt. It was as if the grass had parted to allow the soil to see the sun. The part of the new patch of red dirt covered by God’s shadow began to bulge. It was as if His shadow were taking shape. The red earth was rising to meet the shadow of its Maker. Soon there was a very long, stretched out form on the ground—a three-dimensional copy of the Creator’s elongated shadow. God’s smile slowly faded and the soil stopped rising. Walking to the far side of the dirt figure, he knelt next to it. He pointed His right finger and pushed it gently into the dirt—at the spot where the belly button would be if the man on the ground were real. His finger sunk into the dirt, turning it to clay. From where His finger had created the navel, the Creator drew a line up the middle of the clay body—proceeding to the top of the figure’s head. There was now a line dividing the clay man in half. The Creator dug his hands into the line and pulled half of the clay away. Now there were two piles of clay—one that looked like half of a very tall, very skinny person—and the pile now being formed into something new. The hands of God formed a new clay man, this one smaller and proportioned more like a normal person. As a final touch, He pushed his finger into the figure’s middle, making a belly button. When He finished, the Creator sat back on His heels and admired His work. He smiled, happy with His creation. Then He took a breath. ** Continued in Breathing Servant tomorrow ** Reflection Question: Why do you think God used His hands to make Adam? What does this act tell us about God? What does it tell us about ourselves? Prayer time: Before you pray together, ask: What would you like to say to Jesus today?View the full article

I agree with Rachel. People shouldn't have to provide a myriad of "proof texts" or answer others' inquiries into trivialities to totally validate their opinions and personal beliefs. This is a discussion board; not a theological PhD dissertation board review. It's one thing when someone asks questions out of curiosity, and another when they just seem to be trying to pick a fight. "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.Statements like "did you concede that you were mistaken" and getting all hung up on minutiae and trivialities is NOT productive. (Titus 3:10-11)" For example - Is this really important in the cosmic order of things? Does knowing the truth about this bring me any closer to my heavenly reward? If it does, I'm doomed. If you want to have a discussion with someone rather than an argument, soften your tone. Say something like "I don't believe that way" instead of implying (or making it easy to infer) that they are wrong and you are right. Cuz guess what? When it comes to the absolute truth, we're all probably wrong in one area or another.

I previously said: We should never say that the fact that we are persecuted for our religious beliefs indicates that we have correct religious beliefs. The Jehovah's Witnesses claim that their persecution because of their religious beliefs is a sign that they are correct in their belief. I disagree with that position.

The problem with just trusting Paul on that one is are we reading Paul correctly or are we reading into Paul's words ideas that were not on his mind. I have not yet heard (or I heard and forgot) the exact problems with this interpretation of this text, but from what I understand the quotes from Paul fit into one of 2 categories: where he quoting the Old Testament passages and is talking about the same problems that the Old Testament text was dealing with (that is the orgies in pagan worship or thinking they could steal some of a life force by raping another person) or he uses a specific word that is better translated pedophile, a specific word for adult men having sex with little boys in the gym. Thus while we need to trust in what Paul says we need to trust in what he is actually saying and not reading more into this words than he meant and pushing those extra ideas on to other people who would normally not be included in the grouping that Paul had on his mind.

Gail, I'm not quite sure what your original intention was for the topic. Several different words/ideas are being use, abuse, suffering, etc, as if they all have the same meaning. A person in pain suffers from such, but they are not being abused in the physical sense of someone perpetrating that on them, such as a severe sickness. Christ on the cross experienced both pain, suffering and abuse at the hands of others. Many religions have taken the 'sufferings' of Christ and other words of His to mean followers of Christ must suffer in order to find salvation or persevere through. It has long been a part of SDA teachings/belief as well. At times it has been suggested that without 'suffering' our spiritual experience may be lacking or not up to par. I find that to be contrary to Gods desires for His children. Do we make our children or others suffer so that they will appreciate life better? If not, then why would we expect God to desire that for us? I have this feeling that it, suffering, has become a part of our effort in finding salvation, ie, works. My belief is that Christ simply pointed out the obvious about life, there will be pain and suffering, but that the believer can find peace of mind in knowing that one day it will all end. The individual can work through the pain and suffering by putting it in Gods hands. I have many a Cancer patient say that very thing. Their faith it what gives them comfort.

"men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts..." 1] Men desiring (lusting) men is unnatural. It's not how God created the human race. Hence these unnatural desires are a result of the fall of mankind. 2] These lusts led to shameful acts (sodomy). Both the desire and the act are because of the fall. Why can't we all just agree with Paul on this one? The struggling sinner, resting in Christ, gets eternal life. The condoning, justifying sinner isn't resting in Christ and the result is eternal damnation. The sinner is therefore committing suicide. You see if we are resting in Christ our conscience will burn within us when we sin. This leads us to repentance. Therefore a true believer cannot condone sin as a lifestyle. That why John says, "the one who practices sin is of the devil" (1 John 1:8). It's rather simple. No use to complicate it. Again, sin is sin. The struggling homosexual will make it to heaven where the practicing adulterous will not.

Most of us probably believe that the time will come when we will be abused based upon our religious beliefs and laws that will allow/require us to be punished for our beliefs. At such a time we will have no recourse other than to accept what we are given. But, in a present time were we are not abused based upon law and the law gives us protections from that abuse, we are well advised to accept the protections that the law provides us and potentially foolish if we do not. It is important that Christ's advice to carry a Roman coat for 2 miles when only required to carry for 1 mile (pardon my modernization of the text) was based upon the law in effect at that time. That advice should not be used to tell people that they should accept abuse that violates that law and refuse to accept the protections that the law gives them. I say again: Every human is a valued creation of God and therefore should not allow that creation to be degraded by abuse when that abuse can be prevented.

You can not prove or disprove a future event, be in religious, science or whatever, until after the time passes.

CoAspen I will be blunt as well. It was Jesus who gave the instruction to Laodicea; I merely reminded us that some things of importance are neglected at our own peril. As free moral agents, we can choose to act when someone points out pending mortal danger or we can show indignation toward the messenger. One of those two reactions may be helpful, the other not so much. When the government suspects a terrorism attack, should they remain silent and let come what may? Or give the warning and risk being foolish if the bad guys don't do anything this time around? The evidence has been given. The wise will understand, we have God's word on it. When everything is said and done my prophetic discernment will be seen to be correct or grossly erroneous. But my responsibility is not to try to convince anybody of anything: just call it like I see it and the Holy Spirit will do the rest.,

Gregory, The Witch of Endor kindly took care of Saul, being very hospitable, cooking him a warm meal and making sure that he would take some strength from it. The point is, one's goodness at certain times does not recommend their services to the Christian who has been given other instructions. Our church has come short of doing its God-intended duty. We could have our own people doing a better job than CPS ever dreamed of. I've also worked with CPS. The experience was mixed. I did not call CPS. I had no involvement in the problem for which CPS was called. However, I had a Christian desire to help the one in distress, and was uniquely qualified to do so. CPS prevented all contact for awhile, and later its policies rather limited it. Did CPS take care of the persons affected? In a way, yes. They separated the family in a sort of "restraining order" fashion, and, having only ever heard the side of the one they came in to defend, I cannot know how fair their judgment was. But it was a situation where our church lost an opportunity to shine for God in coming to the aid of the ones in distress. Instead, people placed their reliance on the government.

MCBGM, As a traditionalist Jew keeping the old customs, I assume that you don't put much credence in the New Testament (I may be wrong). As a Christian, I put as much faith in the authority of the New Testament as I do in the Torah. The Torah is even quoted several places in the NT, such as Is.64:6: "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." Romans 3:10-18 quotes from several places in the Torah - quoted by a Pharisee among Pharisees. In Acts 4:11-12, Peter is speaking of Jesus when he says "Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.' [Ps. 118:22] 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” From these and many other accounts in the NT (taken from the Torah), it is easy to infer that we all need a Savior; and the only being in the universe qualified to be that Savior is Jesus. You are correct to say that this is the blessed hope for not only Christians, but for all mankind. Jesus was a Jew; and as one yourself, you are "family"! There are 144,000 members of the family of Jacob - 12,000 from each tribe - who will be the "first fruits" of salvation. Thousands of Jews have come to embrace the Messiah of Joseph (Jacob's son) as also being the Son of David. We are either under the Law or under the grace. Under the Law, if we have broken any precept of the Law, our "reward" is eternal death. Under the Savior, we have eternal life; because (as a Christian), I believe that Jesus has already paid the penalty for all of our sins - mine and yours; conscious or unconscious sin. It is my blessed hope. Without the salvation of Jesus Christ, I am doomed to eternal oblivion. If we look into our hearts, I think we can all see that we have sinned (even if only occasionally) and fallen short of God;s standard. We have all at times ignored the pleading of the Spirit. We all need to be saved! I hope this doesn't sound like an altar call or something, but give Jesus a chance to be your Savior. You'll be glad you did!

I don't know exactly what the church's stance on your situation might be, but I'd drop the current wife like a hot potato if she isn't interested in changing her behavior. Who knows what damage she may have already caused your young daughter...

The thread so far has been a little muddled, because responses have related to (a) abuse received personally, (b) abuse of others observed personally, (c) both or (d) one or the other but it's not always clear which. Another issue is abuse observed from afar, e.g. on television. I think I have probably grown enough that in most cases if I personally am abused I can step back, take a deep breath and think about what is said. If it is criticism of something I have actually done wrong, I try not to receive it as abuse, even if it isn't said very kindly, but to see it as an opportunity to learn and grow. On the other hand, if it is undeserved, I try to see what is going on in the abuser's life that is causing the need to abuse me. (Side note: I'm talking about verbal abuse here, whether face-to-face, on the phone, by mail or email or in online forums. I am privileged as a broad-shouldered man who lives in a very safe place to never be subjected to any physical abuse, but I know that is by no means the case for others.) I am, of course, tempted to 'arc up' and argue back, but long experience has shown that it never makes things better, and I think I'm becoming pragmatic and phlegmatic enough to seek the most productive solution. While meeting abuse with abuse might be momentarily more emotionally satisfying, in the long term rising above abuse is more satisfying. If I see abuse of others, though, I will seek to step in to protect them: even if it's physical abuse and I need to step in physically. (Again, my age physique and gender privileges me in that, and perhaps also my appearance of having certain kinds of social power.) I still want to try to understand why the abuser abuses - understanding is not condoning - but stopping the abuse in its tracks is the much higher priority.

And yet for centuries the Jews had the sanctuary with the priests and high priest. I don't see any way to say that the priests and high priest did not serve in some sort of mediatorial role for Israel. That mediatorial role is, I think, well represented by Abraham interceding for Sodom, and Moses interceding for Israel. In both cases the mediator seeks to avert the threatened destruction. If one could say that Jews have never since Moses done anything that could prompt the threat of destruction by God, then we could conclude that they don't need a mediator. But even Josephus the Jewish historian declared that the destruction of Jerusalem was due to the sins of the nation. Thus, I think your claim is without biblical support, since the Bible shows that Moses engaged in a mediatorial role for Israel, and Jews have sinned just like everyone else, including doing the types of things that prompted the threat of destruction that Abraham and Moses sought to avert.

i was ridiculously entertained And I loved it makes me understand a lil bit A Day At The horse Races!

Great editing!! Very funny.

Absolutely, that is the gospel. If we are standing with Jesus, that there is no fear of the Judgement.

I've always wondered why people take apart the Bible and EGW for their 'end time', 'last days' or 'last whomever' predictions when Christ said it was useless and EGW says the same. Somehow those words are always missing or reinterpreted to not really mean that. Of course the predictors will say, 'but I'm not saying the exact day' as a way to get off that hook. Quite honestly, it is no wonder that many peoples take us as a cult...of course that can happen to any person or group. Live your life to the fullest, as if each day is your last and know your salvation is assured.

Of course, a person with a strong homosexual orientation (Kinsey 5 or 6) finds the notion of marrying a person of the opposite sex every bit as repulsive... (endorsing what Stan said and making a counter point)

@Kevin(wrx) I was, I believe in China when this was posted and only had an iPhone to use, am only now responding as I dwell in my Canadian Abode. Trust me here, if all the posters had to agree with me, there would be only 1-2 other posters, I found the whole homosexual event repugnant, including gay marriage. Therefor I will never be involved in that act, nor would I ever marry a male. When I get myself 100% pure then I will begin working on others. I know this, we all have struggles, I wouldn't trade mine for that of a gay person. I believe in christian fellowship, as well as a powerful God who can convict and transform by his mighty power. I do not believe that I am to replace the Holy Spirit, and God has not asked me to so far, and I do not see a change in the immediate future. I do believe we need to open our circle of friends, and support and pray for one another. Bringing up the gay issue to me, is just as annoying as "that" person bringing up the fact that I am over weight, and he has had totally victory over that. It is very ok to differ, it is not very ok to condemn or slam people, over victories we have had and they have not. Just my opinion, others will differ, and I am ok with that,