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Joe, I think I'll ask Thomas this question. Maybe he will have some insight.

Gen 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; Gen 3:3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'" Gen 3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! Satan is a liar, upon this we can all agree. Yet Satan is so good at lying that He can and does make lies sound like Truth. Jesus told His own eyewitness disciples, "See to it that no one misleads you." (Matt. 24:4) Many people believe Jesus was telling His disciples that because He was with them that they could not be deceived. Many today believe that because they have the Bible that Jesus has seen to it that THEY CANNOT possibly in a million years be deceived, as long as they believe in the Bible. Yet this is one of those beliefs that come from Satan to get people to believe a lie as if it is the truth, and THIS is what Jesus was telling His own disciples to look out for. If it was impossible for the disciples to be fooled, then Jesus would never have put the responsibility to NOT be fooled squarely on them. Therefore, if it is impossible for US not be deceived (fooled) simply because we believe what we want to believe in the Bible, then Jesus is a liar, and we know that this cannot be. The Woman and her husband, WHO WAS RIGHT THERE WITH HER, believed what the Serpent told them, that God would not execute them for doing something that God had told them directly that they should not do. The couple KNEW God loved them, because He had told them so personally as they walked with Him in their garden home. And Satan played on this knowledge to convince them that in the eating of the fruit of the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil they would not be held responsible for this disobedience to the command of God. And this would seem to have been a true statement by Satan, given that God DID NOT execute them of the 'very day' they ate of the Tree. So we must ask the question; Why did God put Adam and Eve to a test if He knew that they would fail? The answer lays in the truth that while Adam and Eve were created SINLESS, they were NOT created righteous (and neither were the human beings, mankind, that were created on the 6th day of creation-Gen. 1:26-27). The reason that God put Adam and Eve to the test of obedience was to TRAIN them in the learning of RIGHTEOUSNESS. Adam and Eve failed to learn righteousness. Yet in spite of this God's desire was for them to learn and practice righteousness, which is why God DID NOT execute them 'on that very day'. God wanted Adam and Eve to learn righteousness and then practice it because God needed a Kingdom on earth that would represent the Heavenly realm of Righteousness, and then teach what they had learned to a world that had completely fallen under the deceptions of Satan, so that these nations could also become righteous as had they. And when Adam and Eve (or their descendants) accomplished this, then the promised (in the future to Adam and Eve) sacrifice of the blood of the Passover Lamb that is Jesus Christ, would be able to pay THAT death penalty that had been assessed in judgement against all those fall under Satan's deception. What we don't see in the garden was Jesus coming to Adam and Eve and saying that since He loved them so much, He just could not bear the thought of having to kill them, so He would supply grace to them, such that they would not be held accountable for their action of disobedience to His Commandments, as long as they believed this by faith. The penalty of death was certainly assessed against both Adam and Eve (they were one flesh), and in order to benefit from the penalty payment supplied to the Kingdom of Heaven by the death of it's King, they would have to prove righteousness in order to enter that Kingdom and be saved. THIS is the Gospel of the Kingdom for which Jesus came to testify (John 18:37). Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. Joh 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. Joh 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." It is the PRACTICE of Truth that leads to Light/Righteousness. Jesus confirms that He will finally execute the judgement prescribed in the garden when the tombs are opened at the resurrection from the dead: Joh 5:26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; Joh 5:27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Joh 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

I'm going with the HINTED answer. A. Burger King Fire-Grilled Whopper

Just using common sense, and looking at what our pioneers claimed to have happened in 1844 and what has actually transpired since then, it is easy to conclude that 1844 and so many things that go with it (like "day-for-a-year", the historicist/preterist viewpoint on eschatology, and the papacy being the antichrist), are erroneous interpretations of the Word. One doesn't need to carefully dissect every word in scripture concerning this. Besides, isn't this topic about when the dead are judged?

Aubrey: They have such. To see a video of one such example in action, see: http://on.aol.com/video/a-luxury-rv-that-floats-on-water-518271593 It can drive at 80 MPH on land and 7 knots on the water. There are other examples that could be given. The one in the video sells for $1,200,000. NOTE: You may have to watch an ad before you get to the video. If you wish, the above in known as a Terrawind. You can also access the company who makes it. http://www.camillc.com/terrawind.htm NOTE: I have been unable to get a MPG rating. However, if you note the weight of the vehicle, I suspect that the MPG is not high.

"God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man; but however trifling this or that wrong act may seem in the eyes of men, no sin is small in the sight of God. Man's judgment is partial, imperfect; but God estimates all things as they really are. The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe. He who falls into some of the grosser sins may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give. The poor publican who prayed, “God be merciful to me a sinner” (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin. The Pharisee's boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing." SC 30

8thdaypriest: from a quick reading it appears that we are on the same train of thought.

I like meteorology

Here's the formula simplified and complete with conversion from cubic feet to gallons:

Anyway, I came to the office on a weekend to get some work done, so I'd better do that.

The way I'd solve it in real life is a lookup table: if the water is x ft deep the volume is y. That could be created empirically, or by doing the calculations (which you'd have a computer do) for a number of values. Just for funsies, I might see what would happen if I used inch-thick slices instead of calculus: how inaccurate would my answers be? V = 40 (sqrt(16-d^2)) where d is in feet, but can be measured in inches = feet * 12. That is, if it's 2 feet it's 24 inches. For the case when d, the distance from the centre, is 0 (i.e. the tank is half full) we get 40 x sqrt(16) = 40 x 4 = 160... we seem to be missing a factor of pi.

So you're saying that Christ WAS our High Priest when He died? AND He was "the Lamb". When did He become our High Priest? You're saying that the child Jesus, in Mary's arms - was already our High Priest? Hebrews 2:17 "Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." (NAU)

first thing that comes to mind is a shadow...

If I understand where Samie and Kevin are coming from, Samie believes that Christ fulfilled the all of the Day of Atonement types WHEN He died and then entered the presence of God the Father. Kevin believes Christ entered the MHP in 1844, to begin a pre-advent "investigative judgment". I have an entirely DIFFERENT view. I do believe that Jesus entered "heaven itself" - the true Tabernacle - to present Himself before the throne of God the Father. He did this on the day he was resurrected - the Feast of Firstfruits. He WAS the firstfruits offering - presented before God. He was not inaugurated to begin His priestly ministry until Pentecost. He remained on earth for 40 days (except for the initial trip to present himself on FOFF). When He ascended from the Mt of Olives there was a welcoming ceremony. Then He had to complete the 8 day consecration (See Leviticus Cpt 8) which required He remain within the Tabernacle (Heaven itself). He was glorified on the 8th day of that consecration, and BECAME our High Priest. The sign of His consecration was the outpouring of His spirit upon His waiting disciples. He could NOT have acted as our High Priest until Pentecost. The Day of Atonement requires a High Priest to stand before God (representing in His person the people of Israel).

further witThis aspect of the video begins at about the 4 minute mark. The central issue here is Jewish religious law and the differences that exist among the various Jewish sects. As a factual matter, the women (plural) have violated the norms (rules) that have been established in an area that is controlled by a Jewish sect that prohibits their actions. The situation referenced here is in my thinking similar to an actual situation of which I am aware: A person who claimed to be a member of a Jewish associated sect visited a SDA Church one Sabbath morning. He announced to the Sabbath School Class that he attended, a meeting that he intended to hold and invited the class members to attend. [NOTE: I was in that class and a witness to his actions.] The pastor contacted him, that day, and informed him: 1) He could not hold any meeting in the SDA Church without coordinating it with the pastor. 2) If he was permitted to hold such a meeting, it would have to be on a date and time that he was given and the date and time that he had announced was not an acceptable date. 3) If he were to hold such a meeting, he would be required to abide by certain boundaries that he would be given as to what he did at that meeting. He informed the pastor that the only acceptable date and time was the one he had selected and would not have his meeting on any othare date and time. In addition, he alleged that his religious rights and those of the members of the SDA congregation were being violated. Of course, the above situation differs from that in the video. However, as a former congregational pastor, I have personally experienced situations in which a visitor sitting in my congregation attempted to do something that would have disrupted the service. I have been informed ahead of time of people who intended to come and do such. I have had to inform my Elders of appropriate boundaries and the pint at which the police should be called. I will give you two examples: 1) A male who intended to visit on some Sabbath and would attempt to physically remove any female who was on the platform in violation of his beliefs as to the circumstances under which women should be on the platform. He had a past history of doing exactly that. He personally informed me of his intent to visit my congregation. I had to give my Elders the guidelines as to when to call the police. 2) I was informed of a female who would likely visit my congregation and challenge me publicly at some point in the service. She came. She rose to her feet and challenged me during the sermon. I had never seen her before in my life. I responded by calling her by name and telling her that I would be glad to talk privately with her but this was not the time for a public discussion. Her mouth dropped open when I called her by name and she left without talking further with me.

In Revelation 13, the Beast has 7 heads which come to power successively. The 7th one would be the one that suffers a "deadly wound". The Beast seems DEAD. At the point when the "little horn" comes up, there are only 10 horns. There is no head, because the 7th one received a "deadly wound". THEN - a "little horn" comes up in the midst of the 10 horns. He wants a share of power. His power grows so fast that no one can stop him (though 3 kings try). Think HITLER. The "Little Horn" will finally take over the world. He will be the "image" of the Terrible Beast = the 8th Head. Could it be that the Beast from the Land will somehow assist the Little Horn in it's rise to world power? The Beast from the Land, breathes life into "the image" of the Beast (Rev. 13:14). The Beast grows an 8th head WHEN the "Beast from the Land" breathes life into the "Image of the Beast". That IMAGE will become the 8th head. The Image speaks (Rev 13:15) demanding that everyone worship (serve) him, and threatening death to anyone who refuses. The Image then causes all to receive "the mark". The QUESTION is: Who is the Beast from "the land" - the Beast "like a lamb"? I don't believe the United States will really be a power player by this time. The 10 Kings will be ruling the world when the Little Horn makes his appearance.

In Daniel 7 and 8, the Little Horn will make war against the saints and prevail against them for "time, times, and a part" (= 1260 days = 42 months) UNTIL the time comes for the saints to possess the kingdom (Dan. 7:21-22) at the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15 (the time to reward the saints). In Revelation Cpt 13, the resurrected Beast (in the person of it's image = the 8th head) will then make war with the saints and overcome them for "time, times, and a part (=1260 days=42months). (Rev. Cpt 13) The time period of the persecution MATCHES. The Little Horn of Daniel, IS the resurrected Beast of Revelation.

Here the fact that the New Testament was written in Greek is a big help. In the Old Testament the Most Holy was entered twice, first when they inaugurated the services at the completion of the tabernacle, then the temples. and there after the day of Atonement. In the Septuagint translators decided to make a clear distinction by using two different words. One word for when within the veil for the inauguration of the service at the start of the ministry there and a different word for entering on the day of atonement. (There is also evidence that Shavu'ot/Penticost is connected with both the giving of the law and the inauguration service). Daniel 8:14 uses cyclic terminology, May I recommend "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others from the archaeology department of Chicago University to explain ancient cycles. According to Leviticus 25 the Hebrew cycles are 6 days and the Sabbath, 6 months and Passover/Yom Kippur, 6 years and the Sabbatical year, and 6 Sabbatical years and the Jubilee. Thus we have 2300 days, half years, full years or Sabbatical years. Since Daniel is based on Deuteronomy and Deuteronomy has everything in the Jubilee in the Sabbatical year, our options for Daniel 8:14 is days, half years and full years. Daniel 8:14 was given the year that included 2300 literal days to Belshazzar's feast. Ezekiel has a 2310 day prophecy connected to how the last 2310 days could have been of the 70 weeks had Jesus been accepted (and if you exclude the 10 days from the fall New Year to Yom Kippur, we have another application of the 2300 evenings-mornings prophecy). 1844 was ONE of the possible interpretations and applications of Daniel 8:14. I would not limit Daniel 8:14 to 1844, but it is inclusive of the text. And we find 1844 being the Sabbatical year (and if I recall correctly the Jubilee) when the church entered a new experience. On the one hand Evolution was becoming popular and before there were good and bad people but they tended to agree that there was a God and that the Bible was inspired. But now things were changing and Atheism was growing and people questioned the idea of inspiration and you had modernists who believed that the Bible was not inspired and the fundamentalists with an extreme view of inspiration. Historicism was being replaced by Dispensationalism. On the other hand the Rosetta stone was starting to be translated unlocking ancient languages. Robinson explored the Holy Land opening up serious (instead of traditions) studies in Biblical geography opening the door for archaeology and where we were able to investigate the pages of scripture like never before. 1844 was the Sabbatical (and Jubilee ?) year that enters this whole new cycle and experience. Why didn't the "Investigative Judgment" start before 1844? Because we are also talking about milestones in history with things that on the one hand there are gradual changes every day, but there are milestones where these gradual changes come together and we can make a distinction between events before and after. 1844 is one of these milestones and is also ONE of the days in the cyclic times that fit Daniel 8:14

Jesus has existed since Adam. He remembers with whom He had a relationship. If I had "written" some one "on the palms of my hands", I certainly would remember them. The only "time" He could not directly "remember" would be while He was growing up as a human on earth. But I'm sure His Father has filled Him in on who the "good guys" were during that short period of time. The Day of Atonement was the END of forgiveness for individual Israelites who had not previously brought a sin offing, for sins committed during the year. It was called the Day of Judgment. God was judging Israel - in the person of the High Priest - on THAT DAY. Why would I NOT equate the Day of Atonement with the END of human probation, and the judgment executed at the Second Coming? The scapegoat was banished to the uninhabited ON THAT DAY (not 175+ years later). The High Priest ENTERED the Most Holy Place and CAME OUT of the Most Holy Place - on THAT DAY. Yom Kippur was a ONE DAY event - just like Feast of Firstfruits, Passover and Pentecost were ONE DAY events. We don't say that THE event of Passover took 175+ years. We don't say the event of Pentecost took 175+ years. Why do SDAs make an exception for Yom Kippur to say it is extended over 175+ years since 1844? They say our High Priest (Jesus) ENTERED the Most Holy Place of Heaven back in 1844, and He's STILL IN THERE! Personally - I believe that Jesus will ENTER the forum set up for the heavenly "court" of Daniel 7:9-10. [The little horn will be persecuting the saints on earth.] The "court" will pronounce Him "worthy" to receive dominion and the kingdom. And that's IT. All done. The setting is just for a formal announcement by God the Father and the "court". Think of the scene when an earthly "court" reconvenes because the jury has reached a verdict. The judge and jury are seated. The defendant stands. And the verdict is read. DONE!

It could be A great tribulation BUT it is not THE great tribulation that Jesus was referring to.

I believe the "little horn" will BE the 8th king.

Samie - you and I have agreed to disagree so many times that I've lost count. I do NOT post here to convince you of anything. I post for the benefit of those who may read this.

Was it worth the known risk? Apparently God thought so. Maybe from our point of view the answer might be "no"? The greater question: is there a greater purpose? I think the answer is "yes". And that is because sin will never occur again throughout God's vast, limitless universe, i.e., to say that affliction will never arise a second time! Never again will free-will beings take the road of self-dependency - never! Why? Because the universe, and we by experience, are seeing the results of self-dependency and self-supremacy.

I found and read the lesson but I'm not in complete agreement with it. The AofD that Jesus was talking about in the Olivet is not the equivalent of the Luke 21 Jerusalem surrounded by armies. At this time I think that from the time that the AofD is set up, there will be 1290 literal days until the sun is darkened and the moon will not give it's light. If we are in the count of the 1290 days, I'm sure everyone will be where they are supposed to be when "for then there will be great tribulation" begins. So I for one will stop worrying about it, for now.

The antitype of PASSOVER was fulfilled at Cavalry, when the blood of the Lamb covered believers, protecting them from eternal death. The antitype of Yom Kippur will be fulfilled either by the Second Coming (when the scapegoat (satan) is bound and sent into the wilderness (bottomless pit); or at the White Throne Judgement after the millennium when satan is cast into the lake of fire. Of course, this is just my opinion from what I read in scripture. I wouldn't stake my salvation on it. That being said, I must admit that there is a lot of Day of Atonement language in the Book of Hebrews. Where the AoD needs to be reconsidered (at least by SDA's) is to take the focus off of Catholics and the papacy and put it on Islam. After familiarizing myself with Islamic eschatology, I did a 2-column comparison of the characteristics of the biblical Antichrist vs. the Muslim Mahdi. It was eerie - indeed scary - how well they matched up. It got even weirder when I made the same comparison between the Biblical False Prophet and the Islamic Prophet Jesus. I still believe that satan will impersonate the "real" Christ prior to the genuine 2nd Coming, but the counterfeit Jesus will be coming back as a radical Muslim, not as a Catholic. The Muslim Prophet Jesus will be coming to annihilate Christianity and Judaism in the name of Allah, not preserve them in the name of Yahweh. When nominal Christians see the Islamic Prophet Jesus proclaiming that the Bible has been corrupted by Jews and Christians and carrying out supernatural persecution, many will convert to Islam, thinking they are following Jesus. If this sounds crazy to you, read the Muslim eschatology in the Quran and the hadiths for yourself.

The biblical AoD did not occur in 70 AD; it is an event yet in the future. There are many possible interpretations of what it is in a futuristic sense. My current thinking is that it is an action by the Antichrist where he sets himself up as a god to be worshipped in a yet-to-be-built 3rd temple or in the Dome of the Rock (which is situated on the site of the previous 2 Jewish Temples). The AoD could also just be another name for the Antichrist, who is himself an abomination. In comparing Christian and Islamic eschatology, this Antichrist or AoD will be the coming Mahdi.

Rather than start another separate topic on end time events, I would like to say this added discussion is well rounded, and I definitely believe Spirit led and insightful discussion of present day events relating to the time of Jesus' coming, the best of which I'm aware. Sorry for the second image. I don't seem to be able to get rid of it.