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just as a matter of record, Ellen White was not the "lowest" of women... she had *some* education before she was injured, and her education was continued at home by her mother. The small Harmon farm was in Cumberland County, Maine, and in 1842 when Ellen was 12, the population of that county was over 70,000. The farm was not the family's primary means of living — they ran a hatmaking business, in which Ellen was involved. They lived in Gorham, less than 13 miles from Portland, Maine, which was the 25th largest city in the US in 1840. I really don't think she was educationally and socially backwards or lacking in opportunities.

Her writings are not written at a low level either.

I deal with non-sda public A LOT and I cannot tell you how hypocritical we seem to our public on this issue. SEVERAL people I have met are shocked that SDA's do NOT ordain women since they believe "our church was started by a woman." I do not believe we can say that EGW was a special case. I believe if we do that we will be acting as hypocritical as ever. How can we say, well, a woman here or there in history can work for G-d as a leader/pastor/prophet, but we won't allow the common woman to do this job". Its not like EVERY woman in this conference is begging for it. But there ARE women being called by G-d, and yet we deny deny deny them the ability to do the work they are called for out of HYPOCRISY, saying that a "lowly woman cannot do this, even though ELLEN WHITE, the lowest of them all (uneducated, farm girl, etc) was elevated to such a high place in our church, but that was just a fluke, we won't ever recognize it again."

What Gregory has failed to do is the equal of what others before him have failed to do--search the archives before expressing their views. I see no point, at this juncture, of bringing out the statements. But they are available for those who prefer diligence over assumptions. The archives help us know what standard practice was in the ordination ceremony.

Green stated, below: What Green has failed to do is to demonstrate that in each case these people were ordained by a public ceremony which included the laying on of hands. Yes, as the denomination developed, it did begin to have such public ceremonies. But, it is a demonstrated fact that the SDA denomination did issue the credentials of an ordained minister when no such public ceremony had occurred. EGW is a clear example of this. I might be asked as to why one would assume that the developing denomination had ever done such for people other than EGW. That is a valid question. Certainly assumptions are a very weak form of evidence. Well, the assumption that such happened is not weaker than the assumption that the developing denomination did have such public ceremonies, absent specific proof that they did.; But, I will suggest that there is some reasonable support for the idea that such credentials were issues without any such public ceremony. Consider with me, for a moment, the historical background of the denomination beginning to issue credentials. The historical record is that they began to be issued so that people could differentiate between those the developing denomination wanted to recognize as actually Adventists and others whom the developing denomination did not want to be so recognized. It seems that some were confusing the people and were as we might say, "wolves in sheep's clothing." With this recognized need, would it be reasonable to expect that the denomination would immediately hold such public ceremonies for the dozens of people involved? I do not think so. Rather, I suspect that the developing denomination simply issued the credentials and such was done for an unknown number of people as was done later for EGW.

I'll be voting, but not for Hillary. I'm hoping that something amazing and unexpected happens at the conventions and these two say "just kidding" and the real candidates show up---I know, wishful thinking. To be completely honest, I don't think it matters who becomes president, this world is set on a certain course and certain things have to happen so that Jesus comes back. If everything was perfect then Jesus wouldn't come back and this world is NOT my home.

Howard Rosenberg was a leading District Attorney in New York known for his work ethic and his wit. He had dedicated over a year to a murder trial that was coming to its conclusion. As the jury gave the verdict, he stared at them in disbelief. Bitterly he asked, "What possible excuse could you have for acquitting this man?" The foreman answered, "Insanity." Rosenberg responded, "All twelve of you?"

Lets start with trying to come to a consensus on some ground rules for this exercise. #1 - I have come to the understanding that many (if not most) of these parables of Jesus are also prophecy concerning the role, capability, and attitude of the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end. As the Son of God Himself said there was only ONE thing that He didn't know about the future and that is found in Matt. 24, where Jesus is giving His disciples a master class on the events of the end of time. Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Now as you know, many Christians believe that because of this text, that no one can know the day or the hour of the Lord's 'second'* coming; and I would say especially SDA's, because of the Oct. 22, 1844 fiasco, where these Advent believers 'went out to meet the bridegroom' believing that THEY were the bride, and He didn't come. The backlash from this is that it is now the SDA position that we should not attempt to figure out any timing of the end, but just live our lives as if Jesus is coming tomorrow. Yet the parables of Jesus (IMO) show distinct references to not only previous prophetic identities from the Old Testament, but radical NEW prophetic testimony of things to come that do not in any way relate to Israel as the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus indicated that there would be an entirely NEW and DIFFERENT Kingdom of Heaven, because Jesus took the Trusteeship of the Covenant AWAY from Israel (Matt. 21:43) in order to give it to this new Kingdom entity that WOULD accomplish the tasks for which God had designed and populated the original Kingdom of Heaven in the first place (Israel). This New Kingdom would finish what the OLD Kingdom would not. So we need to agree that these parable/prophecies of Jesus about the Kingdom of Heaven contain not only prophecy concerning Ancient Israel, but also prophecies that involve a brand new, never been seen before, Kingdom, that at the time that Jesus was here on earth was not yet populated by anyone. Therefore, whatever Jesus says about this Kingdom of Heaven that does not readily credit Israel must involve new prophecy about a new kingdom. And because God knows the end from the beginning we can look for evidence of this NEW Kingdom in OT prophecy, and find it. #1 - There timing in both Old and New Testament prophecy has definable beginning points and ending points, that can be established by careful study and problem solving. If you know the beginning date and the duration of the prophecy you can figure out the end date. If you know the end date and the duration you should be able to calculate the start date. #2 - All symbols in prophecy represent something literal. A symbol cannot represent another symbol. A symbol does not change to mean one thing in one prophecy, and another thing in another prophecy. Example: heads, horns, and crowns. If a prophecy in one place states a certain number of heads, and horns, and crowns, and is associated with a unique symbol, then in order to be THAT same symbol in another prophecy somewhere else it must have EXACTLY the same number of heads, horns, and crowns as the original. We must agree that God has the capability to maintain the same symbolic reference points across time and space, and we must not willy-nilly change those reference points to interpret prophecy the way we want it to be. #3 - Day/Year timing only applies on the Day/Year Calendar. Any prophecy containing stated timing that has not been fulfilled on the Day/Year calendar, is to be considered literal time. #4 - Timing stated in Years cannot be changed into Days, weeks, or months. Timing given in a prophecy must remain in THAT in it's original form in the explanation. Therefore, if 1260 days cannot be found to have been fulfilled during the Day/Year calendar then it must remain in days and not be changed into any other form, simply for convenience. So, if this all right with you? Take your time in looking this over, and please make suggestions as to improvements you see that would be needed to make or discussion of the Kingdom of Heaven more relevant.

It may be of interest to mention the role that the papyrus plant played ancient literature. The cross-section of the papyrus plant has the general shape of a triangle.. Some of the earliest examples of written documents were written in what is called Cuneiform Script. This script developed as early as about 4,000 BCE. This is a wedge shaped writing in which the writer impressed the end of the stylus on the material on which the message was being written. The papyrus plant with it cross-section of a triangle was commonly used as the stylus. This is of value, in part, due to the fact that we have a large number of documents written in the cuneiform script. Some estimates go as high a 1,000,000 although other estimates are lower Based upon the high estimates, possibly only 10% have been translated. So, the lowly plant that you see in the above photo played an important part in the lives of some very early people and in our knowledge of ancient history. .

One can just as easily ask with the same resulting answer for many of the male leaders of the Church. Was there such a ritual performed for James White, Uriah Smith... We are not a ritualistic religion such that there is some power or magic in the hands of the ordained that they have to physically pass on to others or through precisely worded incantations that a blessing is bestowed. The founders of the Church were quite pragmatic people.

Exactly what I said. In our present society there are many occupations that have a greater degree of respect/status than do clergy. Responsibility does not equate to respect/status.

The choice: Arsenic vs Strychnine

By the way Green, I had begun to wonder what had happened to you and if you had left. Glad you still hang around.

As I look at the ministry of EGW, I do not see her muting her voice and keeping silent when denominational leadership failed to follow the will of God. And you tell us that she did this in the name of peace. I cannot buy this.