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Working and homesick for the "good ol' days" when family was close together and we did it all ... home made ice cream in a "real" crank freezer, watermelon, roman candle fights, music, apple pie and flags Yup, those were the days

I like what EGW said "If we are going to err, err on the side of compassion" Just sayin'

Rossw, Pam is saying that when you receive an organ donation, the success of that transplant does not depend upon whether or not that organ came from a male, female, or transgender person. You may disagree with the above. but, that is how I understand what she said. If you disagree, go ahead and challenge her. NOTE: There would be an exception. Certainly the transplant of a uterus would likely come from a female.

NOTE: In recent times critics here in CA have suggested that one cannot post statements that the CA Administration disagrees with. They have suggested that doing so w ill result in being banned. This is nonsense. The exchange that Stan and I are having demonstrates that such is false. Stan and I are friends. We do not always agree. We clearly differ in major ways on this subject. But, our differences do not affect our friendship. And, they are allowed to be posted here. That does not mean that either Stan or I would want an extensive discussion of the crimes that occurred in the past, and by people who may not understand the actual facts. But, in this forum considerable freedom is given to all, to post their thoughts. The issue is not what they say, but how they say it, as has been stated before.

I was very sad to hear this news. I'm not sure if he and my dad knew each other in Buchenwald Concentration Camp? They both were liberated there in 1945!! Seems like my dad was a few years older than Elie.

Initially I thought you were calling the belief in the headship of Adam and Christ a heresy. Can the headship you describe be likened to the SDA hierarchy?---"The idea of a head of the Church is in part that which EGW warned against and characterized as "kingly power"". Should the position of GC president be likened to Israel's request of an earthy king? I am a little surprised though that you think headship is a heresy because Scripture AND EGW both speak of the man being the head of the household and the household making up the church. Paul, I think, makes clear the requirements for an elder are for the man to be a good leader in the home first.

I guess I'm a nobody. I would acknowledge only Samuel in your list to have been in a leadership position. He was a priest in addition to being a prophet. None of the others were leaders. In the time of Elijah and Elisha, you recall, there were kings like Ahab (and the wicked queen Jezebel, from whom Elijah fled). In the time of Jeremiah, the king put him in stocks. Deborah did not lead the army, that was a man's job--though the man did ask her to accompany him. Many people look to support their opinions in the Bible instead of looking for the Bible to correct them. Today, those who desire to elevate women to leadership, as the Washington Conference exemplifies, do so in ignorance, following public opinion more than a plain "thus saith the LORD." This issue has become a religious crisis. Because Ellen White tells us what we are to do in a religious crisis, I post here. Here is what she says: "What astonishing deception and fearful blindness had, like a dark cloud, covered Israel! This blindness and apostasy had not closed about them suddenly; it had come upon them gradually as they had not heeded the word of reproof and warning which the Lord had sent to them because of their pride and their sins. And now, in this fearful crisis, in the presence of the idolatrous priests and the apostate king, they remained neutral. If God abhors one sin above another, of which His people are guilty, it is doing nothing in case of an emergency. Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God." {3T 280.3} I, not wishing to be hostile against God, must not remain indifferent to this crisis. It is my duty to speak. There are many in our church today who are not doing their duty in this regard. If they had done their duty, perhaps our church would never have reached such levels of rebellion as we are seeing. This movement began with the Columbia Union, and California and Germany soon followed suit. It has spread now to Scandinavia…and Washington. It is clear that the disaffection is continuing to spread. If each member, man and woman, of the church were to truly examine his or her heart, and see where he or she stood in the sight of God, praying humbly to know His will on the matter, I think the direction of our church would be altered significantly. Mrs. White has told us nothing should distract us from the work of spreading the third angel's message. What, then, are we doing? How easily have we been led into this sidetrack. The day of God alone will reveal the immense cost, in terms of souls lost, this has meant. Where I am, we could use some help. But the help seems to be tied up at home, bickering about ordination, while only 0.018% (less than 2/100ths of a percent) of people in this country are Adventist. If the women want to serve, let them come as missionaries. We need them. Women can be missionaries for God. As Mrs. White says: "Those who enter the missionary field should be men and women who walk and talk with God. Those who stand as ministers in the sacred desk should be men of blameless reputation; their lives should be spotless, above everything that savors of impurity. . . ." {5T 597.2} While the "sacred desk" is reserved for men, no restrictions on missionaries exist. And do we ever need them! Please, ladies, please consider a term of missionary service. Your gifts are needed. Women often learn languages more quickly. Where I am, the languages are not easy to learn. Are you desirous of a real challenge? Would you like to try something more difficult than being a minister in a Christian country? Why not take the gospel behind enemy lines, to a place, such as this, where Christian work is frequently sanctioned against. Women usually have more liberty, as the fairer and gentler sex, in terms of enforcement. We need brave women!

Administrative Note: This discussion is drifting and risking getting sidetracked into tangential issues. It is also dancing dangerously into ad hominem land. Let's get this back on topic and stick to the topic.

On June 26, Musicman said, see below: I have both substantial agreement with what he said and some minor disagreement. As to the minor disagreement: Musicman has not established what Adventism originally taught. Perhaps he is accurate in his statement on this issue. Perhaps he is not. In any case, he has not actually addressed that issue and has not established such. As to my substantial agreement: What he states as his experience in the 7th & 8th grades to include Academy is simply his experience. I cannot argue with that. Also, I do agree that during that period of time and somewhat earlier, what he describes as his experience was probably the experience of many others, even if not all. I will also say that what he describes is still the experience of some, to include people who post here in CA. But, I must add to what he said: The SDA denomination has moved and is moving away from the theology that he describes. It is moving away from a works based salvation to a faith based salvation that is centered and founded in Christ. This movement is challenging to some within the SDA Denomination. The result is some attempt to crucify those who seek new ways. They forget that if something is of God, it will succeed and if not, it will fail, if god wants it to fail. Musicman, I will suggest that you spend some time looking into THE ONE PROJECT, to see one attempt within the denomination to bring people to focus on Jesus Christ as our foundation and center.

Kevin, Thank you for the compliment. I would much rather be thought of as having my own interpretation while using the Bible, than to be caught using extra-bibilcal sources and claiming they had the same relevance or authority as the Bible. When I was in college, I often disagreed with my professors. They were fallible, and imperfect. One asked us to question the existence of God, and gave higher scores to those students who praised the works of such authors as Machiavelli, Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, St. Augustine, etc., while I and another student who compared those authors against the Bible and Ellen White were given low scores. My writing quality had nothing to do with those scores, as I am well able to write a solid essay. Unfortunately, many today place their professors upon a pedestal. I think it is human nature for two reasons: 1) people respect their higher-status teachers, and tend to overlook their errors; and 2) people wish to claim excellent professors taught them for the sense of pride in their own educational attainments. (Who would want to claim having had poor-quality professors?) To our shame, many in our church today have begun looking to their teachers for doing their study for them, and the teachers have set the Bible aside.

Kevin, I know you have a mountain of knowledge and you like to overwhelm us with it in your posts but much of the time there just isn't much relevance in what you say. Mostly just a historic digression of Jewish extrabiblical tradition instead of sticking to the topic and the Bible. You said if the Bible were to be taken as "thus saith the Lord" you could not support WO yet that is exactly how EGW told us to interpret it. I showed you a quote which points at man's arrogance in knowing more than Scripture. I think Kevin is worried his education may have misled him so he needs to protect his education. The problem I see with Kevin's arguments is that he thinks the Bible ISN'T good enough for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training. SDA university instruction is for teaching, rebuking, etc.

Someday, we might suspect, it will be against the law to be a Christian or express one's Christian beliefs in public.

The Serpent will, of course, hate the seed of the Woman.

Green, have you ever considered contacting our colleges and tell them that you need to redesign their curriculum on their Life and Writings of Mrs. White classes, their Old Testament Theology classes and their Biblical archaeology classes? You constantly argue with what I have been shown convincingly in the classroom, when encouraged to look at the evidence yourself you come up with excuses not to and only want second hand repeating of the evidence, and you never find the evidence strong enough. While I don't mind the questions you get to a point of grabbing at straws to prove that what our teachers in our schools are teaching error. And you whine when offered a higher level of examining the evidence than discussions here. Your arguments are similar to as if there was a discussion: GC: You say that the dead are sleeping and not going to heaven at death, but my Bible reads "Verily I say unto you, today thou shall be with me in paradise." person you discuss with (PD): If you move the coma to between today and thou it shows that the promise was given that day, not that the thief went to heaven that day. GC: But you are twisting the text. PD: No, the punctuation was not in the original, it was added by people later and here they got it in the wrong spot. GC: Do you have a proof text that says that the punctuations were not in the original? PD: Of course there is not a proof text saying that. This is just a simple thing known about ancient languages and Bible translation. GC: Oh, so you can't prove your point by the Bible, your argument is based on something outside of the Bible. That shows that I'm right and you are wrong, the thief on the cross did go to heaven on that day.

Green, you can do much better than you have done here. I am surprised at you.

Rossw asked, below: I have no knowledge of this situation. I know nothing about it. I cannot comment on it as I do not know. But, I do know this that the SDA denomination is moving toward a position that we should deal carefully and with pastoral concern to such people.

I was once in your shoes, Dave. Yes, the chart is mine. The first six in your list along with, 10, 11, 13 -15 are all directly related with the AoD. Hence, for me, since there is only one unique AoD referred to by Jesus and its setting up will occur shortly before the 2nd coming, all prophecies directly related with the AoD will likewise find fulfillment shortly before the second coming. For me, the 2300 days are not years but literal days (see the chart). They are yet to be fulfilled in the future. The 2300 days of Dan 8 and the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 did not simultaneously start, nor did the 70 weeks start in 457 BC. Why? Because the Bible specifies that the start will be from the issuance of the command to restore Jerusalem. The 457 BC decree of the Achaemenid ruler Artaxerxes Longimanus was NOT for restoration of Jerusalem but for BEAUTIFICATION of the temple in Jerusalem. Explanation of Josiah Litch as per #8 re: Rev 9:5 is easily proven unsound by the very next verse, v6. I can point out more but I don't mean to overwhelm you. You may reconsider your position comparing Scriptures with Scriptures.

Kevin, I have yet to see the text that says the priests were to wear a blue tassel--so, for starters, you have yet to establish that one. The people may have worn a blue cord/hem/thread, but the priests wore a blue robe, an ephod with blue lace, and a mixed-color pomegranate hanging on their robe which included some blue; no blue tassel. Secondly, the term "kingdom of priests" is one of the most misconstrued. It is often used to imply that every man, woman, and child must have been a "priest." Such thinking is simply incorrect. Contemplate, for example, the following passage from Mrs. White. "Their obedience to the law of God would make them marvels of prosperity before the nations of the world. He who could give them wisdom and skill in all cunning work would continue to be their teacher, and would ennoble and elevate them through obedience to His laws. If obedient, they would be preserved from the diseases that afflicted other nations, and would be blessed with vigor of intellect. The glory of God, His majesty and power, were to be revealed in all their prosperity. They were to be a kingdom of priests and princes. God furnished them with every facility for becoming the greatest nation on the earth." {COL 288.3} Notice that they were to be a kingdom of priests and princes, NOT priestesses and princesses. Not once in the entire Bible does God establish either priestess or princess. Exodus 19:6 says: "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." That specifies simply that the "kingdom" or "nation" of Israel would have priests. This statement is given before the Ten Commandments were spoken from Mt. Sinai, before God had established the priestly order, and before the tabernacle in the wilderness had been designed and built. The priesthood of Israel came into being, therefore, shortly after this statement. And what did God establish with it? Were any women to minister in the sanctuary/holy place? Exodus 19:6 is the very first verse in the Bible to use the expression "kingdom of ____." The next one is this: "And Moses gave unto them, even to the children of Gad, and to the children of Reuben, and unto half the tribe of Manasseh the son of Joseph, the kingdom of Sihon king of the Amorites, and the kingdom of Og king of Bashan, the land, with the cities thereof in the coasts, even the cities of the country round about." (Numbers 32:33) (See also Deut. 3:4, 10, 13; Josh. 13:12, 21, 27, 30-31.) Obviously, not everyone in Bashan was "Og," and not everyone in the land of the Amorites was "Sihon." They were the leaders, and their kingdoms were governed by them. Israel's leaders were to be the priests, and Israel, being a theocracy, was to be governed by these spiritual leaders. This form of government ceased at the institution of King Saul as monarch. The first Biblical mention of "kingdom of Israel" occurs in a post-Saul world. Consider a few more "kingdom of ____" expressions to be found in the Bible. Do any of these imply that everyone in the kingdom was of the "of ____" entity? "kingdom of the LORD" (Is everyone the LORD?) "kingdom of Ahasuerus" (Is everyone Ahasuerus?) "kingdom of his father" (Is everyone the father?) "kingdom of brass" (Is everyone brass?) "kingdom of Persia" (Is everyone Persia?) "kingdom of Babylon" (Is every city/person Babylon?) "kingdom of heaven" (Is everyone heaven?) "kingdom of God" (Is everyone God?) etc. "kingdom of Christ and of God" "kingdom of His dear Son" "kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" As a matter of fact, there is only one "kingdom of ____" expression in the entire Bible that might properly be applied in the manner in which most attempt to apply the "kingdom of priests": that is "kingdom of men." If we take that "men" to refer to mankind generally, then you could say that this one would be able to refer to every individual within that kingdom. However, one cannot rule out the alternate, and more probable, meaning that the "kingdom of men" refers to the leaders of that kingdom in the same manner in which all of the other "kingdom of ____" statements do. Once we realize, then, how the Bible typically uses that expression, should we continue to use "kingdom of priests" in a manner inconsistent with the rest of the Bible?

I've pretty much seen God work in my life (prayers answered, situations that I thought were unsolvable went in another direction that I hadn't considered before, my growth as a Christian) so for me, I guess the proof is "empirical". It's just easier for me to believe because, although I haven't heard the still small voice, circumstances in my life changed and still changes in such a way that couldn't be assessed as" naturally developing", if that makes sense.

For those interested, here's an alternative chart for end-time events.

I'm waiting for the real independence day when I can say goodbye to my life and nature from fallen Adam. Then I will be immortal and free from sin.

The choice: Arsenic vs Strychnine

Dear One and All, I am a School Chaplain in two primary schools in Melbourne, Australia. I love being involved in making a difference in the lives of students, staff and families! Much of what happens through chaplaincy is funded through people like you who want to see schools have the influence, mentoring and care of chaplains. I am employed by ACCESS Ministries and would love for you to help keep myself and other chaplains like me doing what we love! Please click on the Pic or the Link below to make a difference. https://www.accessministries.org.au/support/donate-to-access-ministries/lets-all-support-school-chaplaincyView the full article

if you are referring to Genesis 3:16 then tell that to Moses he wrote it.

i accidentally had the cap lock on. regarding the issue. the actions of the conference in ordaining females to leadership roles over congregations against the wishes of the GC and the people is nothing short of rebellion. These people are cultured by the feminist movement which originated in spiritualism. Just because babylonian churches who do not believe that Adam and Eve existed desire to ordain women to leadership these apostates in our churches want to do it. This lot are wolves in sheep clothing and apostates. where will it end? Seems that this thing has happened before. Israel had to have a king because the idolatrous nations around them did. So we have to follow babylon in everything also.