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The evidence of society shaming masculine men is rather thin. Your personal examples do raise legitimate questions of what exactly makes any activity or occupation masculine or feminine? And why? Working on cars for a living? There are women who do that too. The queen of England was a mechanic during WWII. So is her sexual identity in question? Does a lack of construction or home improvement skills make a man less masculine? Is a woman with those skills less feminine? What makes showing emotion or expressing ones feelings not so masculine?

Tom, you may have made an error in your thinking. Rossw did not tell us how he defines "professional auto mechanic." He just might dismiss each of your statements as not applying to professionals, at least as he defines them. Come to think of it. I get it. You were posting beyond Rossw to people reading here who would have a more reasonable definition of the word "professional."

I like what EGW said "If we are going to err, err on the side of compassion" Just sayin'

We are all pastors to the world, but here she mentions pastors to the flock of God. There is interesting reasoning among the anti-ordination people. They have their "proof texts" that does not mention the word "Ordination" Mrs. White has done everything that the "Proof texts" say a woman should do. The critics of ordination say that a woman can do everything Paul apparently says women should not do but says we can do them just as long as a woman is not ordained. They have added the idea that only ordained women are not to do these things. Also, in reality, we have ordained women for decades. An ordained minister meant that they have proven themselves capable of doing a job as opposed to being an apprentice. There were things that only an ordained minister could do such as marrying, burying, baptism (and Mrs. White questioned the requirement of only the ordained baptizing with there being some flexibility if no elder) and a couple of other things. People needed to be ordained to become a chaplain in say the military or other places that hired chaplains. We have created a vocabulary loophole to grant women the right to do everything that was limited for ordained ministers with the exception of one or two things in administration (things that most ordained ministers would not do anyway). That is a token hold out to appease the anti-ordination people. And thus it makes it a lie. In all but title and those token hold backs capable women do everything that the word "Ordination" implied. We "Pro ordination" people are just recognizing this and wants the church to be honest. The "anti-ordination" people wants to continue the illusion by avoiding the word and an maintaining those token events that are held out and to continue the illusion.

Even though I am still hoping to meet who I will marry and have children with, I understand your feelings very well in your expressed thought. I'd love that too. Sadly we are getting to a place where everyone has to work just to make ends meet, as we are moving from the 6th to 7th head.

I fry mine in butter...

You put EGW as a judge or authority over the church and use her as an example for WO yet in the next breath claim headship is heresy yet between having EGW and a GC president we know your denial of headship is contradictory. One thing we should remember is the SDA denomination is not the Christian Church. To say otherwise is to admit the SDA church is a cult. It is likely the organization will be spit out anyway.

You said you didn't know of even one woman mechanic. Now you know of more than one. There are others. It's often helpful to look beyond one's own subjective experience to gain knowledge — if one is truly interested in that knowledge.

According to the US DOL 2010 statistics for women in nontraditional occupations (< 25% female employed) - Automotive service technicians and mechanics: Employed Both Sexes = 799,000; Employed Female = 14,000; Percent Female = 1.8 Automotive body and related repairers: Employed Both Sexes = 163,000; Employed Female = 2,000; Percent Female = 1.5 Heavy vehicle and mobile equipment service technicians and mechanics: Employed Both Sexes = 223,000; Employed Female = 4,000; Percent Female = 1.6 Bus and truck mechanics and diesel engine specialists: Employed Both Sexes = 330,000; Employed Female = 3,000; Percent Female = 0.8 Miscellaneous vehicle and mobile equipment mechanics, installers, and repairers: Employed Both Sexes = 91,000; Employed Female = 2,000; Percent Female = 2.4 Industrial and refractory machinery mechanics: Employed Both Sexes = 418,000; Employed Female = 15,000; Percent Female = 3.5 Aircraft mechanics and service technicians: Employed Both Sexes = 142,000; Employed Female = 5,000; Percent Female = 3.8 Small engine mechanics: Employed Both Sexes = 58,000; Employed Female = <1,000; Percent Female = 0.5 First-line supervisors/managers of mechanics, installers, and repairers: Employed Both Sexes = 342,000; Employed Female = 30,000; Percent Female = 8.7 https://www.dol.gov/wb/factsheets/nontra2009_txt.htm On the the apparently mistaken assumption of physical ability as a barrier to women, there are higher percentages of female mechanics in some large vehicle/equipment/machinery, and aircraft jobs than in automotive or even small engine mechanics. (On that last one, there is a small engine repair business a few miles from my house owned and operated by a woman. She has been in business at least as long as I have lived here, about 25 years.)

Did the Judges rule and govern? Did Deborah lead Israel? It seems they were pretty disobedient. I don't see where Deborah had authority over Barak. EGW did give council but was she the authority over the church? Your trying to have your cake and eat it too but really are throwing the baby out with the bathwater . I thought you said God was the only head of the church?

Rossw: Exactly. This is exactly what many of us have been saying for years. The SDA denomination proclaimed EGW as an ordained minister for a number of years as they believed that her ordination had come from God. Did they have any other option? Yes. They could have given her the credentials of a licensed minister, which is one who is not ordained. The YEARBOOK has nothing to do with the pay that an employees either receives, or does not receive. Rather it lists their status as an employee. EGW could have been listed as an employee who was not ordained. Thank you for pointing out that she was issued the credentials of an ordained minister for about 44 years. It is of interest that the very same year that the credentials has the word "ordained" crossed out (although we do not know by whom), that she was listed as an ordained minister in the YEARBOOK.

The SDA church still functions - and has grown to be the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world according to Christianity Today -- That is the advancement of the Three Angel's Message - so "yes" it is still alive. Sorta like Noah's message was "still alive" to the very end - even though only 8 people went in -- only "better"!!

Infants are born with a sinful nature that trends to evil - they need a Savior - and they have one. The reason they go to heaven is not because they do not need salvation or don't need the Gospel benefit of deleting the sinful nature -- the reason they go to heaven is that they have a Savior.

Demonstrating that our works show that we are truly justified by faith - or else they condemn us (Romans 2) -- is the work of Christ in the Most Holy Place

Rossw said, see below for the quote: I have known of female professional auto mechanics. I have known of a female who was the head mechanic and supervised all other mechanics who worked for an automobile dealer. I have clearly known of women who could physically do the job of an auto mechanic. To be frank, none could lift a 3,000 lb. automobile with their bare hands, but they knew how to put it on a lift. And if removing a transmission they knew how to use the assistive devices in the same manner that men used them. In the military, vehicle mechanic jobs, to include tracked vehicles, are now open to women. But, perhaps you would say that such are not professional jobs.

Sinful nature - everyone has one. Being born with the tendency to sin does not turn sin into not-sin. And the texts you gave are pretty clear in themselves Does not appear to be a lot of confusion about this inside the church so far.

EGW, a woman, preached from the "sacred desk" thousands of times. There were a number of other Adventist female licensed ministers in her lifetime that also preached from the "sacred desk". I think you are reading that incorrectly as a gender restrictive statement rather than a general statement inclusive of whoever, male or female.

The evidence strongly suggests that the resolution was in fact implemented. This resolution was voted at the Session following James White's death. Prior to his death following common practice of the Church in those days, husband and wife ministry teams were issued joint credentials. If one died or left ministry and the other continued that one was issued an individual credential. Ellen White was issued an ordained minster credential by the Michigan Conference less than 2 years after that resolution. It was signed by the conference president who was present at the 1881 GC Session that voted that resolution. The resolution that was voted was referred to the GC Committee which was only a small group of 3-5 people, basically the three officers and one or two others. In the years that followed, EGW was issued ordained minister credentials by the GC Committee to which that resolution had been referred. Her credentials were signed by individuals actually present at the 1881 Session for the discussion of that resolution. Uriah Smith was one such person. Not only was he at the 1881 Session, he was the 1881 Session Secretary, and as I recall, he was on the resolution committee that drafted the resolution and presented it to the Session. I think we incorrectly assumed and have looked for evidence of documentation of further deliberation about the resolution by the GC Committee before they acted upon it. Logically, why would there be such evidence when the members of the GC Committee were a part of the original discussion of the resolution itself? The credentials issued to EGW are the documented evidence of their follow up and implementation of the resolution that had been referred to them for that to be done.

there's an auto shop in Philly that's due to open this September and will be totally run by women: http://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/shecanics-patrice-banks-girls-auto-clinic/

/off topic Even Paul didn't meet those requirements...nor Timothy. /back to the regularly scheduled arguments

Happy 4th to all! Have a safe and great day. Always remember that God loves us more than we can ever imagine!!

HEY ALL WELL to day is INDEPENDENCE DAY in the U.S. --- I hope all have a enjoyable time dgrimm60

Yes apple pie does sound good. My SIL makes the best, from those that I know! I thought I should say that, because obviously many make great apple pies that I've not tasted. Now talking about apple pies. A number of years ago, she came for a visit and before she left, she made us about 6 of them and I put them in our freezer out in the garage. Well we had eaten 2 of them, thank God, because a few weeks later I went out to bring one in and found that the freezer had stopped working and everything in it was moldy!

I've not had a slice of good apple pie for eons!!! Hmmm... methinks it is time!

Naomi, those days sure do sound nice!

Administrative Note: This discussion is drifting and risking getting sidetracked into tangential issues. It is also dancing dangerously into ad hominem land. Let's get this back on topic and stick to the topic.

x

@Robert I hope you get a chance to see some fireworks while you're waitin'!

There was a long period in his life where Job's life completely sucked. Did he ever find out why? My read of scripture says "no". God basically told Job that it wasn't any of his business. It's obvious that Job retired comfortably in his old age; but I highly doubt that the devastating wounds caused by the loss of his original children and possessions; and his own extreme illness were ever completely healed. Jesus pleaded with the Father to take the cross away from Him. Did the Father do it? No. Unlike Job, though, Jesus knew why. Why should it be any different with us? Poop happens. Sometimes we know why; and sometimes we don't. Our job is to trust in God no matter what happens. If this wasn't an original thoughts forum, I would quote the lyrics to a song called I Will Trust in You by Lauren Daigle. I would highly recommend listening to it. It as appropriate for this topic.

I think anyone should be able to worship in an SDA Church. If Jesus was OK hanging out with prostitutes so am I. I also have no problem worshiping or hanging out with gays, lesbians transgenders, etc.. No, none of these groups should practice their trade or lifestyles openly at church; and if they do, they should be warned once; and then asked to leave on the second offense. If they are openly gay, promiscuous or otherwise "scandalous, they should not be allowed to hold office - not because they are more "evil" than anyone else; but because their activity is generally considered offensive by most members of church society; and would generally cause a scandal. That being said, I am sure that there are many discretely gay or promiscuous people serving as pastors, elsders, SS Teachers, Board Members, and Conference administrators. As long as their proclivites are not openly practiced; and the general church population is unaware of them, how are we to even know they are outside of the realm of societal norms? Many sincere believers my have gay, promiscuous and/or transgender leanings (I myself have suffered from heterosexual leanings); but resist them because they believe God when He says "don't do that". I would not support a church that celebrated gay marriage. I wouldn't condemn them; but I would not support them. It's one thing to accept and love all people where they are; it's a whole other animal to celebrate their sins.