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@Green Cochoa and @Rossw - The most charitable view is that you are missing the point. I am more inclined to believe you are just avoiding the point and obfuscating in order to not acknowledge the absurdity of your own perspective on the curse of Genesis 3. The point is it is descriptive of the curse or consequences of sin. All of it. Not just one part of it. Jesus died to redeem us from all the consequences of sin. He overcame the world that through him we might also overcome. We should strive to live our life as redeemed people, living up to God's high ideals, and not continue to live out the curse of sin. Yet another token of the headship heresy is this determination that this one aspect of the curse, men's dominance of women, is not a curse of sin but rather something to be glorified as a Divine edict, as if it is his ideal for mankind. The illogic of the idea that it is prescriptive is that this is the only part of the curse that is treated that way.

So, if that is true that this curse in Genesis 3 is a Divine edict, as you say, or prescriptive, why are none of the other details adhered to? Based on other things you have said I am assuming that a violation of a Divine edict would be a sin. Nobody objects to men earning their bread without breaking a sweat or having to only engage in hard physical agricultural work. I know of nobody (other than perhaps some old order Amish) that would consider the use of modern means of eliminating weeds from crops as a violation of this Divine edict. And wouldn't taking steps to reduce the pain of childbirth also violate it? And wouldn't a woman fond of snakes be committing a sin? Why only make an issue of mandating that men must rule over women? Wouldn't all the rest be equally mandatory?

HEY ALL Our church is having V.B.S. all this week----JULY 11---12---13---14---15--- So I will be busy all week--- dgrimm60

My dear friend (Stan) Stanley Schleenbaker, sent this to me yesterday. It is absolutely amazing. A lot of you may remember Stan, from when he was the first tenor for the Faith For Today Quartet. But, even though Stan is in his 80's now, he still has the voice of an angel. Recently, he was able to do an impromptu song with the King's Heralds after their concert. Donny Scroggs happily stood by Stan, and let him sing the tenor part. I know that you will be as blessed as I was Share this awesome song with your friends, so that they can be blessed too. https://youtu.be/l4SjS5QuAXQ

That was before the fall of mankind. Compare these: Gen 1:27 vs Gen 5:3 Yes, after conversion you could argue that our minds/characters are being recreated in God's image, but not before conversion....

I think that Jesus is the root. "The root is holy" ( Rom 11:16). The trunk was Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The children of Jacob became the branches. Paul said, "branches were broken off because of unbelief". The 10 tribes who broke away from worship of Yahweh, and became worshipers of false gods - those would be branches "broken off". Jeremiah 11:16 "The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form." IF the Lord had replaced His chosen Israel with another people called "the church", then the TREE would not longer exist. It would have died because ALL it's branches would have been broken off. Romans Chapter Eleven clearly tells us that the TREE still existed in Paul's day. Gentiles who come to belief are "grafted in" among the other branches still attached to the tree.

ESV | ‎Mt 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good.

Maybe the USA primary system should be eliminated and the people should vote directly from a list of candidates. He/she who has the most votes wins. Get rid of the Electoral College, too. Seems like direct voting would be the most fair by eliminating delegates and super delegates and all-or-nothing primary wins which tend to work against non-establishment candidates. Too bad large blocks of certain types of Americans can override the choices of the more discriminating and analytic, who may be fewer in number.

Maybe the post is referring to the sick minds that want someone running for president that is so stupid that she couldnt figure out what the C meant on over 23,000 emails.After all isnt her experience and so called brilliance something that qualifies her?

Green, if you think that this is a poor excuse you have limited knowledge of many of our small congregations. Yes, the majority of our members are not in such situations. But, our smaller congregations all to often struggle.

I have discovered that there are a lot more sick minds in the USA than I thought.

"Modern means of eliminating weeds"? Yes, they perhaps ARE a violation of the divine edict. Consider that, for one thing, one year in seven was to be a sabbath rest for the land in which it was allowed to grow weeds naturally. This actually helps the soil so that in the other six years it is more productive, believe it or not. Consider, too, that a sedentary lifestyle usually ends in premature death. That doesn't sound like God's plan, then, does it? I don't see anything in the Bible that says it's ok, do you? The Bible says we are to work, and if we don't work we shouldn't eat. That's the primary cause of diabetes, if I'm not mistaken--eating without working. But, in following God's laws, "none of these diseases" were to come upon us. You're trying to open a hundred cans of worms with a single post, all in attempting to excuse something that does not align with the Bible. Both your exceptions in this regard (excuses/rationalizations), and those of Gregory in attempting to find a poor excuse for elevating women by disqualifying all of the men in the church, remind me of a story in the Bible. You may find it in 1 Kings 13. Jeroboam didn't care whom he ordained to be priests.

Not only that, the NT Church included house churches in the homes of identified women with no mention of a mamas the defectors elder. The fair assumption is that the women in question were the elder of their house church.

Green, did you read where I said: If you criticize The One Project for not teaching, as you might claim, certain foundational teachings of the Bible, you might be correct that TOP does not teach those. The one-day and three-day conferences are designed to bring people who need it back to a focus on Christ. Once that has happened, people will need to continue their spiritual journey within a congregational setting and under the leading of the Holy Spirit. Many of the people who attend already have the law. They do not need to be taught that. They need to be taught the gospel and Christ. Others who come have neither Christ, the Gospel, nor the law. They need to be taught the law after they have been taught Christ and the Gospel.

Agreed that both the gospel and the law are important — but it's been my observation that more often than not, Adventists in particular lose sight of Christ, rather than forget about the law. That's one of the big reasons why the Adventist faith has been criticized by other denominations — for being legalistic and dogmatic. I've not been to the One Project meetings, but from everything I've read, they sound quite on target, and a very needed aspect to the Adventist faith.

Not a house church. Not every house church has a husband/father available.

Yes he does!!

No matter how many weeds in my garden I pull they just keep coming back.

@Rossw - That really doesn't answer the question. Just as not all pastors are married, not all women are either and many have already raised their children. You do realize the passage you quoted was a curse, don't you? Do we aspire to live by the curse or overcome it?

Rossw, Some SDA pastors have never married.

How do you define rule?

I like the fact that we have some very intelligent scientists, like David Berlinski, who are countering the influence of men like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens in the secular realm. God works in mysterious ways.

Did God cause the pain in child birth? Did God make men the dominant sex to rule over women? No, both are products of the fall of mankind. God assumes the blame for that which He does not prevent. Yes, generally speaking men rule over women because in this world the stronger takes advantage of the weaker. Ellen White: "man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him (by the fall of mankind) has too often rendered the lot of woman very bitter, and made her life a burden...Many husbands stop at the words, “Wives, submit yourselves,” but we will read the conclusion of the same injunction, which is. “As it is fit in the Lord.” God requires that the wife shall keep the fear and glory of God ever before her. Entire submission is to be made only to the Lord Jesus Christ, who has purchased her as His own child by the infinite price of His life. God has given her a conscience, which she cannot violate with impunity. Her individuality cannot be merged into that of her husband, for she is the purchase of Christ. It is a mistake to imagine that with blind devotion she is to do exactly as her husband says in all things, when she knows that in so doing, injury would be worked for her body and her spirit, which have been ransomed from the slavery of Satan." [THE ADVENTIST HOME, PAGE 115,116]

Paul declared that circumcision was no longer required (contrary to God's OT Law); indeed - that if Gentile Christians submitted to circumcision for religious reasons, they were cutting themselves off from grace (Gal. 3:1 and 5:2). Does this mean that Paul was a false teacher?

First let me say that it is impossible for you to forgive of yourself. It is not part of our humanity. After all we can only love those who love us (see Rom 5:7/Luke 6:32-34/John 5:23). That's because we are not born with agape. Now to your question. The 5th commandment is exactly as it is stated. Thus agape can love abusive, destructive parents and not actually the abuse itself. Here's my advice: Give up trying to do something you can't. Rest in Christ's finished work. You are complete in Him As you rest in Him He will eventually change your heart so that it comes more into conformity with His agape love. Then perhaps one day you will be able to forgive them. Robert PS: BTW I was physically and verbally abused from the time I was born until 6 years of age at the hand of my alcoholic step-father. Been there, done that. To this day I haven't really forgiven him and that was 58 years ago. Now I don't hate him, but neither do I go around him. My SDA grandparents raised me and as far as I'm concerned my grandfather was my dad.

Surely the most obvious way to know that God our Saviour exists is when we ask for deliverance from a temptation and immediately receive it from Him! Then the next way would be in occasions when we are protected as 8thdaypriest has shown us. God protects all, good and bad, as much as He can, but when He answers prayer for deliverance then it is intensely personal.

The idea that Hillary is totally corrupt is a manufactured political smear campaign that has never had any real substance. No accusation pan out to have any real evidence. Millions of taxpayer money wasted by the congressional republicans for what? Nothing there. And Gowdy even had to tamper with the evidence to try to support his political witch hunt. She is overwhelmingly better qualified and experienced to be president than Trump ever will be. as for Trump's corruption and incompetence, there is a truckload of real evidence. A string of business failures and bankruptcies, a long history of stiffing creditors and contractors working for him, a bogus "Universtiy" over which there is still litigation, and two states attorney generals got hefty reelection campaign contributions from Trump after they drop their investigation/lawsuit about the consumer fraud of that bogus school. Smells like a bribe doesn't it? And that is just the tip of the iceberg. Trump accuses everybody of things he is 10 times worse about. Like lying. Fact checkers can hardly keep up with the flood of misinformation, falsehoods and outright lies coming out of his mouth, every time he opens it. More than 90% of what he says, the independent fact checkers have conformed to be at least partly false to outright completely false. No politician does really well, but Hiliary is far and away more reliable in what she says than Trump.

The One Project is not perfect as nothing human is perfect, which probably includes you and I. Yes, you can criticize its leadership. Some of your criticism might be valid and some might not be valid. The central theme of The One Project is to make Christ the focus and center of our doctrine and belief. If you call this heresy, you are well beyond the biblical teachings. If you criticize The One Project for not teaching, as you might claim, certain foundational teachings of the Bible, you might be correct that TOP does not teach those. The one-day and three-day conferences are designed to bring people who need it back to a focus on Christ. Once that has happened, people will need to continue their spiritual journey within a congregational setting and under the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I would say the majority here are middle of the road, based on 'my' interpretation of such.

Rossw: I consider myself to be a "middle of the road" SDA. I think that this is supported for the following reasons: 1) I am considered to be conservative by some who know me. 2) I am considered to be liberal by others who know me. 3) In my personal life, I am generally more conservative in what I practice than in what I say. IOW I tend to support in others more than I do.

Interesting! The first 2 versions I picked up did not have the parenthetical note. They were both Eastern translations, Lamsa's and the Orthodox bible. I thank you for this because I am interested in the differences between the Western and Byzantyne branches of Scripture and this is a help to me. The notes in the NET bible say that that part was a note added by the author. The note in the ESV study Bible says basically that with the cleansing that Jesus gives there is no more need for the ceremonial law. It does not appear in the Interlinear at all.

I have stepped out of airborne airplanes, as high as 4,000 feet above the ground. I have stepped out of a helicopter at 90 feet above the ground, but I consider a motorcycle to be to dangerous for me to ride.

Sweet ride...

here's a motorcycle bakery creation for you, Bravus!

So Pam, it's really more of a hobby for you?

there's some very cool motorcycles out there, but this would probably be about my speed: