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But we can still learn from these. Mrs. White's ministry often reflects a "Oneness of Opposites" on topics or at least a balance between the extremes. But there is a tendency to take Mrs. White's quotes without looking for different things. one of these are what some have called "Balancing quotes" Another is did Mrs. White's life and practice show a consistency of a line or does her actions, and the actions of those working with her reflect that she sees the quote as one aspect but a more balanced view. An example here is in her time "Educated" people knew the classical languages, the ancient myths and Shakespeare. That is what advanced education focused on. She supported an education on life skills and to get a job, more practical matters. So she was of course horrified by how everyone to be "educated" in reading pagan mythology. And she down played the others. She had comments about Shakespeare. One was critical of how someone who died in a drunken orgy should not be honored by being on the cover of one of our journals (as one of our journals did). The others in the context of the education of the day. Because of this there are members with their Mrs. White quotes demanding that Shakespeare not be used in our English classes and that Seventh-day Adventists are to be ignorant of Shakespeare. However what we find was done in the reform schools, those who were working with Mrs. White to institute her reforms (at least at the South Lancaster school) was that Shakespeare was moved out of being major study in the education to his plays becoming the Saturday night programs. To me this indicates that she was not for us to become ignorant of Shakespeare but to not have our time monopolized by him. And in literature in general we take her quotes about fiction but not realize that she was part of a movement lead by the more serious novelists dealing with poorly written junk reading that only tantalized the imagination (which we still have with us, they have especially developed into many of the romance novels, adventure novels and soap operas.) Now if any of that cheep stuff is written about a "true" story we tend to accept it, and reject reading things by say Herman Melville and Nathaniel Hawthorn, and others, even though they say the same thing about the "Novel" that Mrs. White said. As well as historical things about say the Circus. Unfortunately we approach these and other topics not dealing with a balanced understanding but either a blind rejection, or using the balancing statements and historical events to make us say that anything goes. Either we don't see movies or anything with acting at all, or we go and see anything and allow entertainment to monopolize our time. Either we have members horrified that the guides at Elmsheaven pointing to the fireplace with the tiles of the stories of King Arthur and telling us that Mrs. White loved to tell children the stories behind those tiles and say that must be wrong she must have just ignored them, or we have people saying "ok, go a head and read anything." Mrs. White tried to make us think, to be critical. To ask questions "Is this literature completely dangerous to spend time on, or is it something that I need not be ignorant about but not have it consume all my time." Mrs. White tried to make us critical thinkers, but we ignore this lesson and instead we tend to use Mrs. White as someone to turn to her for simple answers either on the conservative or liberal side. This is not fair to her. Yes, we need to know about Brother B. It is good that Green pointed him out. Green doing this was appropriate. Sadly, at least in my understanding or misunderstanding of what he was trying to say was using this criticism of Brother B's liberal views. as an excuse to push the traditional Fundamentalist view, forgetting that Mrs. White was critical of that view as well.

But no, this is NOT a red herring. Too many base their faith on Fundamentalism. In the last days as the problems with fundamentalism come more to the forefront too many are going to give up the Bible like how people gave up Mrs. White under the Rea issue. And they will have the additional temptation of Satan impersonating Jesus. It also raises questions on how we treat each other and what is proper study and application of inspired writings. Remember there were some Adventist leaders a century ago who's followers are still around who have Ellen White quotes for what they believe despite the fact that Mrs. White wrote to them telling them that they have her words but not her message.

in the same way, if mankind had kept close to God and kept himself in the will of God, knowing the principles of God's own character.... the ten commandments would have never needed to be given. It is our distance from God that leaves us blind to sin and all it's forms and degrees. Ellen white made clear application of the principles of God case by case in the testimonies and her writings in general. It was to reveal the Character of our creator and redeemer and dearest friend that She labored.

The fact is, this statement cannot be forced to say what most people make it say. Please consider that it could just as well be saying, as I believe it is, the following: "The Lord has sent his people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible [the lesser light], and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light [Christ]." The fact is, Ellen White makes clear reference in her writings to Christ as the greater light. If we allow her own writings to be used to interpret herself, we must acknowledge that she may very well be referring to Christ in the above statement. The Bible is lesser to Him.

Very true! Another thing to keep in mind is that God sent us this "lesser light" because people weren't heeding the Bible as they should. Ellen White herself said that the purpose of her ministry was to make us pay more attention to the Scriptures: "The Lord has sent his people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light." If we had lived by the principles found in the Bible, her ministry wouldn't have been necessary... Here is another important statement about the relationship between the "lesser light" and the "greater light": "Brother J would confuse the mind by seeking to make it appear that the light God has given through the Testimonies is an addition to the Word of God, but in this he presents the matter in a false light. God has seen fit in this manner to bring the minds of His people to His word, to give them a clearer understanding of it. The word of God is sufficient to enlighten the most beclouded mind and may be understood by those who have any desire to understand it. But notwithstanding all this, some who profess to make the Word of God their study are found living in direct opposition to its plainest teachings. Then, to leave men and women without excuse, God gives plain and pointed testimonies, bringing them back to the word that they have neglected to follow. The word of God abounds in general principles for the formation of correct habits of living, and the testimonies, general and personal, have been calculated to call their attention more especially to these principles. I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with the several Testimonies for the Church, given for the people of God. Here, said I, the cases of nearly all are met. The sins they are to shun are pointed out. The counsel that they desire can be found here, given for other cases situated similarly to themselves. God has been pleased to give you line upon line and precept upon precept." source: CCh page 92.

I always thought the "lesser light" referred to a reflection of the "greater light" — somewhat like an analogy of the moon reflecting the sun. The moon doesn't create any light of its own; it only reflects the light that happens to hit it from the sun.... and not all of the light from the sun hits the moon. In like manner (to my way of thinking), Mrs. White reflects a part of the Biblical "light," but by no means, did she reflect it all. Other planets also reflect the sun's light, though not as brightly to our eyes as the moon. Possibly, in addition to Mrs. White, there are other "lesser lights" out there that can give us even further spiritual insights...

Did Jesus teach that human nature is good? No! Read Matthew 19:17 Did the Apostle Paul teach that humanity is basically good? Again, no! Read Romans 3:12

The word translated as "Jews" in these verses is ioudaion, which in some usages does refer to Jews (as opposed to Gentiles). But in some of these verses it should probably be translated into English using the literal meaning of "Judeans" -- those living in Judea. There were some differences of opinion regarding religious practices between the Judeans and the Galileans, and between the Judeans and the Samaritans. Many of the followers of Jesus were Galileans, and many of those who were plotting to kill Jesus were Judeans. Notice what John says about the Judeans and the Galileans: So when he came to Galilee, the Galileans welcomed him, having seen all that he had done in Jerusalem at the feast. For they too had gone to the feast. (John 4:45) After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. (John 7:1) John specifically tells us that Jesus was avoiding Judea because the Judeans were wanting to kill Jesus. The author is making a distinction that we normally do not make. We generally lump together all the Israelites as "Jews". But the Galilee was full of Israelites (that we would call "Jews") who were not seeking to kill Jesus. It was the Judeans who were seeking to kill Jesus, so Jesus stayed away from Judea at that time. You seem to be wanting to use the term ioudaion to differentiate between Jews and Christians. This is not a usage that we find in the Bible because throughout the whole time the Bible was being written the followers of Jesus were considered to be a sect within Judaism. (Acts 24:5,14) The believers were using the Jewish Scriptures, were going up to the Temple in Jerusalem to worship and offer sacrifices, and were following the Jewish Messiah. Today we (and the Jews) generally consider Christians and Jews to be distinct and separate groups, but it is anachronistic to try to read our current views into what John wrote when such views did not exist. Why would John make a distinction about the "feasts of the Judeans" ? The story in John 4 happened in Samaria, where the Samaritans kept their own version of the Old Testament feasts on the Mt. of Blessing. So John could have been making it clear that he wasn't talking about those feasts. Or perhaps he was acknowledging the different calendars that were used by the different sects within Judaism at that time. The sects that did not recognize the Judean leadership as legitimate leaders of the Jews would at times start their year a month later or earlier than the Judeans did, and would sometimes start their months a day or two later or earlier than the Judean leadership did. The Karaite Jews today usually celebrate the Old Testament feasts on different days than rabbinical Jews. Karaites determine the calendar according to the sightings of the new moons as was done in Bible times, while rabbinical (or Orthodox) Jews use a calendar originally calculated by Hillel. (BTW, the Millerites apparently used the Karaite calendar to determine that October 22 was the Day of Atonement in 1844.) John would not need to specify the Sabbath as "the Sabbath of the Judeans" because all the different sects of Jews agreed which day was the weekly Sabbath. Although Christians today often refer to God's feasts as the "Jewish feasts", in the Scriptures they are called the "appointed feasts of YHWH" (Leviticus 23) and God calls them "My feasts" (Leviticus 23:2)

Pam, you're very close in your understanding here. In fact, the Bible itself uses the sun/moon greater/lesser light analogy. However, Revelation 22:16 tells us Who the sun represents. Jesus is the greater light. Jesus is the Greater Light of the Bible, the light to which the scriptures point and of Whom they are a reflection. Ellen White reflects the light of Jesus, not of the Bible. The Bible itself is but a reflection--Ellen White at times spoke with Jesus face to face in vision. She saw far more than a mere textual reflection of Christ via the Bible. As a prophetess, she saw the Man Himself. The moon represents the spirit of prophecy--and the spirit of prophecy is the same spirit which the Bible authors had. See 2 Peter 1:19-21. None of the planets reflects to us the light reflected to it by another planet. They only reflect the light they receive directly from the Sun. The same is true of Ellen White. She gives us messages directly from the throne.

That would be correct!! B. Moby Dick It's a whale of a tale - Herman Melville's Moby Dick begins with the famous line, "Call me Ishmael." Source: various web sites.

Just to add though, this discussion is interesting even if just a red herring.

Kevin said below: Exactly. To be part of the Canon of Scripture is to mean that is a global message that applies to all people, in all places, and at all times. Yes, the application of that message, to us today, may require that the specific circumstances under which it was given be understood. Regardless, it is a message that is to be applied, when correctly understood, to all people everywhere on Earth. This is a fundamental meaning when we use the term Canon of Scripture. In contrast to this are other inspired messages which are not intended to be applied to all people everywhere and at all times. These messages may be inspired in the same manner as were the Biblical prophets. But, they differ in that they are not intended to be applied to all people everywhere and at all times. This difference is fundamental to our understanding of Ellen White. The primary reason that she was given was to guide in the development of the SDA denomination--not canonical. The Bible, as commonly understood in the Protestant tradition was to have authority over her writings--not canonical. It serves to explain why she in writing to one person might differ from what she said to another person--Each was true for their specific circumstances. This difference tells us that in working with people outside of the SDA denomination we must ground our faith in the Bible, as commonly understood in the Protestant tradition. It tells us that in setting the standards that establish the boundaries of what it means to be a SDA, those standards must be grounded, not her writings, but in that Biblical writings a commonly understood in the Protestant tradition. Ellen White was a gift of God to this denomination. she has been misused by people a both ends of the spectrum.

Indeed Green, she was talking about people who wanted to make inspiration a matter of words and the idea "When Mrs. White wrote this she was inspired when she wrote that she was not inspired but writing her own opinion." There are no degrees of inspiration You cannot say she was writing one way here and another way there. It is the PERSON who is inspired not his or her words. As a prophet she is filling an office. Now we have to remember that the same woman who wrote those quotes critical those who wanted to make inspiration different degrees; this same woman wrote equally as critical letters who want to use her writings to do more than she wanted them to do. She told us what her visions did and did not do for her. You seem to think that that guidance from her is merely her opinion and that you, like Stephen Haskell on a friendly level and on a less friendly level Washburn and Wilkinson and others from the moderate and extreme fundamentalists movements tried to tell her how inspiration works thus what her works were doing and putting them on a higher level than she put them. In her quoting that pastor who's views of inspiration upset people, in her discussing the reform dress and Testimony #11 and her correspondence with Haskell and Washburn and others and her son's correspondence to Wilkinson explains what they did and did not do for her. Don't forget Mrs. White herself was accused of apostasy and of denying that she had the gift of prophecy because of her liberal views of inspiration. Green, if you were living about 108 years ago would you be one of the ones trying to convince Mrs. White that she needs to accept the Fundamentalist's approach to scripture and maybe be one of those calling her an apostasy because she said things about inspiration that does not fit your views as a fundamentalist?

That is because her job and the Bible's were different. The Bible has is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. It has a more universal message. Mrs. White was like Iddo or other prophets who we know about but don't have their writings as part of the Canon. who were still fully authorized prophets but who's job was not to give the major message of the Bible, but who's job was local application of the Bible.

A. Motorola Alexander Graham Bell would be proud of Motorola, which produced the first handheld mobile phone in April 1973. Source: various web sites.

Mrs. White pointed people to the Bible instead of to herself. So did Jesus. "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39) Was Jesus wrong to tell people this? No. He is the "greater Light of the Bible" to which both the Bible and Ellen White would point us. Mrs. White called her writings the lesser light, and the Bible is also lesser to Christ. Consider the import of the following quotes: The prophet John was the connecting link between the two dispensations. As God's representative he stood forth to show the relation of the law and the prophets to the Christian dispensation. He was the lesser light, which was to be followed by a greater. The mind of John was illuminated by the Holy Spirit, that he might shed light upon his people; but no other light ever has shone or ever will shine so clearly upon fallen man as that which emanated from the teaching and example of Jesus. Christ and His mission had been but dimly understood as typified in the shadowy sacrifices. Even John had not fully comprehended the future, immortal life through the Saviour. {DA 220.2} Clearly, Jesus here is said to be the greater light. Another statement that confirms this follows: Many of the Jews had acknowledged John as a prophet sent of God, and had received baptism at his hands unto repentance; meanwhile he had plainly taught them that his work and mission was to prepare the way for Christ, who was the greater light, and would complete the work which he had begun. Nicodemus had meditated upon these things, and he now felt convinced that he was in the presence of that One foretold by John. {2SP 128.1} Interestingly, Jesus, the greater light, spoke of John thusly: 7:26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. (Luke 7:26-28) John the Baptist never wrote so much as a chapter of the Bible. As a prophet, he could only speak as a reflection of the light shone upon him by God. This is what all of the prophets have done under inspiration. "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." Mrs. White wrote under the influence of the same inspiration of God that inspired the other prophets. She herself says we are not to look for degrees of inspiration, separating out the human from the divine. Many times in my experience I have been called upon to meet the attitude of a certain class, who acknowledged that the testimonies were from God, but took the position that this matter and that matter were Sister White's opinion and judgment. This suits those who do not love reproof and correction, and who, if their ideas are crossed, have occasion to explain the difference between the human and the divine. {1888 257.1} If the preconceived opinions or particular ideas of some are crossed in being reproved by testimonies, they have a burden at once to make plain their position to discriminate between the testimonies, defining what is Sister White's human judgment, and what is the word of the Lord. Everything that sustains their cherished ideas is divine, and the testimonies to correct their errors are human--Sister White's opinions. They make of none effect the counsel of God by their tradition. {1888 257.2} Brother B. is on the wrong track. God has not given the work into his hands to set up his human wisdom to put his hand on the sacred ark of God. When sitting in judgment upon the living oracles of God, did he consider that God had placed upon him the work to pass judgment as to what is inspired in the Word of God and what is not inspired? Has God committed the work to him to state what sort of degrees of inspiration attend some utterances and what is wanting in others? Whatever may be his thoughts in these things, if they are kept to himself they will not harm other souls. {1888 257.3} Did God put the burden upon him? I answer, No, He never gave any such burden to any mortal man. And if he had not become exalted he would never have dared to put his hand on sacred things to cut and carve the sacred Scriptures as he has ventured to do. {1888 257.4} The words spoken to Joshua are applicable to Elder B. "Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy." Joshua 5:15. You are led astray by the enemy, and while you have been doing a work the Lord has never committed to mortal minds to do, you have been wonderfully zealous in regard to any difference of opinion being presented upon the law in Galatians. You speak of the position I have taken upon it and the letter I wrote you being the cause of your sickness. This may be your own interpretation of the matter, but I have reason to lay your sickness to causes that you do not see. {1888 258.1} God is not pleased with your work. His condemnation is upon it. And these skeptical ideas that undermine all inspiration have been taught in our college and have been printed in our church paper. The seeds have been springing up and you must reap the harvest. These sentiments should never have seen the light of day. They should never have been put into the paper. Have God's people put out their eyes, that they cannot distinguish between truth and error, the sacred and the profane? Elder B. you will never want to meet your harvest in the day of God. {1888 258.2} For those here on this forum who have put their own hands to touch "the sacred ark of God," Mrs. White's words still stand forth clearly: "you will never want to meet your harvest in the day of God."

Thanks for some historical background. It really brings some life to the Bible that we don't often hear.

Simple reality check. If you are confronted with a bad guy, which would you prefer him to be armed with, a gun or a knife? With which one are you going to have a better chance of coming out alive? The simple reality is that with a gun, especially an automatic with a large clip, more people will die or be seriously injured in a dramatically shorter time at the hands of an angry or deranged person, than if he has only a knife. With simple self defense training a person has a far better chance of disarming a man with a knife, or escaping, without significant injury to anyone than if the attacker is armed with a gun.

Answer: Captain Eugene Cernan holds the distinction of being the last man to leave his footprints on the moon. Cernan is one of only three people to go to the Moon twice and the last man to leave a footprint on the lunar surface. Cernan's distinction as the last person to walk on the Moon means that Purdue University currently holds the distinction of being the alma mater of both the first person to walk on the Moon (Neil Armstrong), and the most recent. The final words Cernan spoke on the Moon in December 1972 represented everything the Apollo missions stood for. “We leave as we came and, God willing, as we shall return,” he said, “with peace and hope for all mankind.” Eugene Cernan is now 82 years old.

Mrs. White, an inspired writer, leaves us in no doubt on this error either, correcting it plainly. . . . The thief on the cross offered his prayer to Christ. "Remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom," he said. (Luke 23:42.) And at once the response came, Verily I say unto thee today (as I hang on the cross in humiliation and suffering), thou shalt be with Me in Paradise. . . . {COL 263.4}

Does that put her writing on par with the Bible? No, I think she served a different function than the Biblical writers.

I don't see the volume of inspired work coming out of anyone like it did for EGW. This essentially singles her out from the rest in our modern era. EGW would have to then be able to endure the same scrutiny as any other Biblical author. In my opinion, of course.

Kevin, I don't think we are as far apart in our understandings of the Scripture as we might think. Even if we don't agree very much. Of course EGW is a fallen human like everyone else. However, she was obviously a highly skilled person in her ability to communicate God's message. Is her message clear enough for clear understanding? I still think so. Would I say probably most Biblical writers were similarly capable? I also think so. Are there mistake in Scripture? I'd acknowledge yes. A famous comma comes to mind but even with that in mind there is still plenty of Biblical context to overlook the mistakes.

While I agree that it is the church and not Mrs. White that have made her into our own version of the pope, I would disagree with JoeMo's above post. There is a difference between indirect inspiration that people like Mrs. White, Nathaniel, Moses, Isaiah, Philips daughters etc. and indirectly inspired people like Oswald Chambers. People like Chambers has the Holy Spirit leading in their study, but people like Mrs. White, Elijah, Jeremiah have received direct information from God. JoeMoe; there is no such thing as an infallible prophet. For example David wanted to build a temple for the Lord. So he called "The Lord's Messenger" the representative of earth to be a part of the heavenly council and to bring to earth the findings of the heavenly council, Nathan, in his official role as prophet in the court of the king of Israel and asked him if he could build the temple. (it was not a casual question by the water fountain). Based on his insight as someone who was an inspired prophet he answered correctly, there was nothing sacred about needing to worship God in the tent that it would not be a sin to build the temple. So directly inspired Nathan told David this. However, God had to send Nathan back because while building the temple would not be a sin, in being a man of war, David conquered a number of people. These now became a part of Israel and Judah and converted from worshiping Baal to Yahweh. In the Baal religion, El "God" was worshiped in a tent. After Baal won the victory over leviathan he wanted a temple and was worshiped in a temple. For these new converts the temple would have been confusing, who were they to worship, God or Baal? Therefore Nathan came back with a "No" answer. The rest of Nathan's answer has all been edited together in the Bible, but there is evidence that it may have been 3 different conversations with the last one being years later. That last answer was that since these new converts were now members for a number of years and their children have grown up in the faith, that David's son can build the temple. Prophets are directly inspired, but they are not infallible, they are a mixture of a direct message from God that gives what is necessary for salvation, but given within the prophets understandings and settings. The infallible prophet does not exist. I find with people who are upset because Mrs. White was not infallible they give her up and latch on to Paul with the belief that they finally found an infallible prophet. They go from people who use to bash Mrs. White over the heads of people to bashing Paul over the heads of people.

Administrative Note: This is not intended as a political topic, nor is this a forum for venting political views. Please confine political palaver to the politics only forum.

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you may have an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” so that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partners of Christ, if only we hold our first confidence (or assurance) firm to the end.

Revelation 21:4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." So - I guess you think this verse only applies to humans - not animals. Have you ever WATCHED an animal bleed out, and die. I HAVE. My grandfather owned a meat market and slaughter house. I went out to the slaughter house with him many, many times as a kid. The animal's eyes were wide with terror. They could smell the blood. They were moaning and jumping - trying to escape, even before they were shot. If you think those year old lambs just walked calmly up to the killing post, you should think again. If you separate a lamb from its herd - it gets very scared. Lots of noise, and the smell of fire and blood . . . You get my drift.