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I think canned cooked diced carrots are detestable... (okay, I know I'm off topic.... so back to topic)

I have to confess that I was having some trouble following what you were saying in your comment. I know that there are people who accuse us of believing that it is Satan rather than Christ who saves us because we teach that Satan is bearing our sins. But the study on Azazel helps to show that we are indeed correct in our application of the scape goat to Satan in the types of applications that we find Mrs. White doing. But that does not lessen how Jesus bears our sins away from us. this is also indicated in Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. which referring to the two directions of the two goats on the day of Atonement. The one goat east into the sanctuary and the other west into the wilderness. Just read your reply; I'm sorry that is the book that I can recommend. However from the Bible I can recommend Psalm 103:12, and also from the Adventist understanding of the 70 weeks of years. In John Jesus' ministry starts with the announcement that Jesus is the lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world, which is a reference to Jesus starting his ministry at the fullness of time on the day of atonement that starts the 70th week and having John the Baptist start this right on time according to our understanding on the day of atonement by referring to the scape goat, then has a 3 1/2 year ministry (bringing us to the midst of the week) where he dies on Passover and John ties together the Passover lamb with the scape goat.

Sorry for the cluttered writing. The formatting for writing posts in this forum is difficult to say the least. Words disappear and the cursor jumps around.

Correct! Good thing you went to Pathfinders Answer: "The Star-Spangled Banner" is the national anthem of the United States of America. The lyrics come from "Defence of Fort McHenry", a poem written in 1814 by the 35-year-old lawyer and amateur poet, Francis Scott Key, after witnessing the bombardment of Fort McHenry by the British Royal Navy ships in Chesapeake Bay during the Battle of Fort McHenry in the War of 1812. More than a century after its first publication, the song was adopted as the American national anthem, first by an Executive Order from President Woodrow Wilson in 1916 and then by a Congressional resolution in 1931, signed by President Herbert Hoover.

(1890) C.T.B.H. 119 651. Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat eating will eventually be done away; flesh will cease to form a part of their diet.

Sister White had a very good answer for this, when confronted with numerous individuals in her day who imagined they had messages from God. She said that if God had actually revealed a truth to someone, God would reveal the same exact message to more than one person. Scripture requires that all things revealed by God must be revealed to two or three witnesses at the very least. Naturally you can get a few to agree with you, after you have first trained them in your way of thinking. But you cannot show that anyone has come up with the same ideas completely independently of you. The idea originates with you alone and therefore fails the scriptural test of truth.

Yes. Your translation is in error. The word for kingdom does not mean king. Not at all.

"It is not earthly rank, nor birth, nor nationality, nor religious privilege, which proves that we are members of the family of God; it is love, a love that embraces all humanity." EGW

I agree. To whom much is given, much is required. Along with the privileges come sacrifices!

There are other tests, but I see that you use two of the popular things that have been taught in our church for about 60 years, while the first one is pretty good, the second one is simply wrong. It was eventually pointed out to the person who wrote that list and he saw the error of his ways, but by that time his list has become traditional. But it is wrong. That is reading more into those proof texts from what they are actually saying. The Deuteronomy text is saying that in something like Isaiah's Immanuel prophecy, if that child was not born, then the king could continue to worry about his enemies for years to come. A proper application was, I forgot the details, but Graham Maxwell tells a story about this one old lady who claimed to have a message from God and to prove it she, despite being elderly, was pregnant and was going to give birth. People asked Graham Maxwell what to do about her, Graham's response was "Wait 9 months." It is NOT telling us that each and every prophecy needs to be fulfilled. The Jeremiah text was in the context of a prophet predicting peace. Jeremiah says that the trend of prophets is to predict bad things, and that we are living in a world where things tend to go from bad to worst so that if something good is predicted and it actually comes to pass this is so unusual that it must be a miracle. 1. Prophecies are conditional upon response. They are given to either encourage us to go the right direction, or warn us if we are going in the wrong direction. The 70th week prophecy was PARTIALLY fulfilled in the literal 70th week. Other parts were no fulfilled and will have to cycle around again. This has confused people into thinking that the 70th week was cut off and placed at the end of time. No the 70 weeks were literal. Had all the conditions been fulfilled there would not have needed to be a second coming. Jesus would have been in the grave 3 1/2 years, sometime during those 3 1/2 years Satan could have come claiming to be Christ and worshiped in the temple. The wise would have realized this was a fulfillment of prophecy and that the true Messiah was the one they killed They would throw Satan out and Satan would gather together nations who rejected the gospel, fighting those still deciding but not bothering MOST (not all) the apostates (Edom, Moab and some of Amon), since they are his already. While he was battling south west of Israel rumors from the North and East would have made him rush back to Israel. That rumor would be that Michael had stood up... there would have been a great eschatological war where the nations that joined Satan against Israel and the nations that joined with Israel, and those in Israel and the nations that joined with her but who have not personally accepted the gospel would die. While some texts look like it might be caused by battle; others clarify that they are actually killed by their heart failing them as they see the Messiah is all his glory. 2. With prophets we need to distinguish between the framework and the ideas they use to try to share that framework. The ideas and illustrations and applications may be wrong but the framework is infallible. With prophets we Need to find the Underlying Structure and see how they hold up. In this prophecy you quoted about Jerusalem never being rebuilt. Mrs. White is dealing with dispensationalism and fundamentalism. The land of Israel was the center of the ancient world. The major trade routes from Europe. Africa and Asia had to pass through this land bridge. The Old Testament, especially Deuteronomy 4 (some of the details are filled in by other passages) gives two potential histories for Israel; either they are faithful and stay in the land and evangelize to these trade caravans and as others hear stories about this group of people who were not worshiping and trying to appease all these different gods and instead of being punished by the gods they were being blessed, making others want to look into why these atheists were being blessed and then learning the gospel which would lead to the Messianic kingdom. Or else they would be unfaithful and God would send them curses to try to get them to change. If nothing else worked they would be sent into exile where they were to share with others their unfaithfulness and God's faithfulness and thus spread the Gospel by going into all the world. If they were faithful with exile theology the exile would end in a second great exodus where the Messiah would take them home. As we know, they were not faithful in the land. They went into exile but they were not faithful there. So they were given another 490 years of land theology. (Note: It was 490 years from David to the end of the exile.) They again were not faithful so Jesus told us to go into all the world (a return to exile theology) and as we share the Gospel with the whole world he, the Messiah will come for a glorious exodus to our heavenly home. In trying to deflect the application of the little horn from the pope, in the counter reformation the Catholic church offered two alternatives: One was saying that the Bible was only talking about things in history and it thus has no effect on our day. Or else that it was places in the future and that the Old Testament does not describe the church age and that Israel has to fulfill land theology in exact detail and that the church has to be taken out of the way. Mrs. White's principle is that Deuteronomy 4's land theology does not fit our day and age. We are no longer bound by the donkey and camel caravans for world wide trade. We no longer have those trade caravans passing through the ancient intersection of the world. We no longer need the merchants to bring us the news of their travels. We now have worldwide shipping and airflights that can fly over Israel. We have mass communications. God can, and we will see more of the Jews being used by God like how he used Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heshel. Whether they live in earthly Jerusalem or New York City, they still must use the methods of exile theology. Jerusalem has not been restored as the center of the world for the trade caravans to pass through and bring rumors about these people who are not trying to appease the gods but are still being blessed. We see that the conditions for land theology has changed. This is the principle behind Mrs. White's quote. That principle has stood the test of time. But many are going to suffer because of the false understanding of Jerusalem that Mrs. White was warning us against. The Christians are expecting Israel to be restored so they can be raptured away, and that there will be a great war in the middle east that ends with the second coming. Among Jews is the belief that there will be a great war there and the Messiah comes to end it. (and there are Jews who question this and are worried that Christians are trying to push the Jews and Muslims into a war to try to fulfill these prophecies and feel manipulated by Christians. God is working with these people). Among Muslims are people who are expecting a war in the middle east and Jesus come to stop the war and prepare the world for Mohamad's return. All three groups are suffering from this belief. One group who is suffering even more (and time for an advertisement) is the Arab Christian community. The wall that helps keep Israel safe has cut off the Arab Christian community and makes it more difficult to get there and thus less time for tourists to help this economy. I would like to encourage you to plan a trip to Israel, and help BOTH the Jewish AND the Bethlehem Christian community. If you cannot get there (and please go) there are people who are selling the olivewood crafts. For more information on how they are being hurt and how to help please go to: http://www.anastas-bethlehem.com/about-us/ The Jewish community is also hurt because the press makes it sound much more dangerous than it actually is over there. While there are many good tours and you can go on your own, http://www.biblicalresources.net/ frequently has tours and they are very moderate. In addition to the problems in the above paragraph; I would not be surprised if in pushing the dispensationalist/fundamentalist agenda in all the groups that the people there are pushed into a war and "Jesus" comes and stops it. Whether or not a physical temple will be built or not, in this way Satan can come and sit in the temple worshiped as God and encouraging people to accept the antichrist. (try to find, some copies still float around; the John W. Wood Last day Events series Southern New England campmeeting 1976) Also for study may I recommend: http://www.biblicalresources.net/product.cfm?product=44 and http://www.biblicalresources.net/product.cfm?product=45 ) Thus while Mrs. White's specific application of the principle we can find an error, the principle that she was trying to teach in this is error free.

Are you implying Jesus is the scape goat of Leviticus 16? Interesting translation. Can you give the source of the quotation? A bit interesting calling Jesus the lamb of God who "scape goats" in the same sentence. Kevin, is Jesus Azazel?

We need to stay up with current day and times. What they (swine) were feed in ancient times or earlier this century is not applicable. When we give people incorrect information........

hahahahahaha, sorry its not the cow Answer: A month before his death on April 25, 1616, English poet and playwright William Shakespeare constructed his last will and testament. His will stated that upon his death, his wife Anne would receive his “second-best bed.” This is the only mention of Anne in Shakespeare's will and testament. Some scholars see the bequest as an insult to Anne, whereas others believe that the second-best bed would have been the matrimonial bed and therefore rich in significance. There is no reference made to his "best" bed. Shakespeare bequeathed the bulk of his large estate to his elder daughter Susanna under stipulations that she pass it down intact to "the first son of her body."

Context: Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. The above is also connected to Col 2:16,17 "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ." These Sabbaths, food and drink had to do with the ceremonies that pointed to Christ. See Leviticus chapter 23. Paul is not reversing the proabitions against the eating of unclean flesh foods. Now it is true that we aren't under the Pentateuch (law), but we are under the guidance of the Spirit of God. I believe He will lead the believer to, as a practice, set these unclean flesh foods aside.

The relevance is of your treatment to Scripture. The issue for me isn't so much over food itself but of how Scripture in interpreted. It says what it says, obviously, but, you add and subtract for your own pretext. How do you know I haven't read it? If I read it I'd have the same conclusions as you? False. What you've stated as your belief does not match with what is stated in Scripture. You haven't provided any proof my interpretation of chapter 11 is false. If I am I am humble enough to admit so but no evidence is provided.

Here are two quotes I found: The Course of Those Awaiting Christ’s Coming—Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat eating will eventually be done away; flesh will cease to form a part of their diet. We should ever keep this end in view and endeavor to work steadily toward it. I cannot think that in the practice of flesh eating we are in harmony with the light which God has been pleased to give us.15 {CG 383.2} We are not to make the use of flesh food a test of fellowship, but we should consider the influence that professed believers who use flesh foods have over others. As God’s messengers, shall we not say to the people: “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God”? 1 Corinthians 10:31 The second one is interesting! There are about 499 quotes on eating meat, I went through roughly 50 so far and have not seen one pertaining to not going to heaven for eating meat!! Unless someone else knows of a quote like that, let them post it! But I'll say that there will be lots of meat eaters, not just those that have eaten clean, but also unclean in heaven!!

No, I choose to reject your false beliefs in light of the evidence from Scripture. I don't want you to read and study for me because time and time again your beliefs prove to be false.

The most helpful discussion on inspiration for me was the introduction to the Great Controversy and a book on inspiration by a professor from Walla Walla whose name escapes me at the moment.

Now sit down and read through the whole book of Hebrews, while keeping in mind Jesus' own words of the new symbols of the new covenant pronounced in the upper room, symbolically eating the flesh and drinking the blood of The One true and holy sacrifice. (Pay special attention to chapters 8-10.) Notice how utterly and jarringly radical those symbols sounded in the ears of those Jewish men on that final Passover. "Eat my flesh and drink my blood." Even from the days of Noah, eating human flesh and drinking any blood was unthinkable. But the old order of things pertaining to holiness for continual sacrifices was set aside by the final sacrifice of the one and only pure sacrifice.

Read the whole book of Leviticus, carefully in one sitting. Understand the whole context and the theme throughout. Note that what to eat and what not to eat was only a small part of the whole book. Notice all the other rules and all the other things that have nothing to do with diet or food. And notice how many of them we do not teach or adhere to now. Why is that? What is the Biblical support for only continuing to follow the rules of a small part of the whole book?

Reading EGW on the topic of what heaven values is exactly what Tom is talking about. Our knowledge does little for us, neither who are or any status we may obtain. What Christ told the disciples was/is very powerful to understanding what He wants from all of us, the trust and belief of that small child.

But maybe that is the point. We seem to act as if knowledge and being correct are our ticket to the kingdom. We strive to be right, thinking that is righteousness. But that isn't it at all. It is not what we know. It is who we know. Maybe just like His statement that the first shall be last and the last shall be first, to be as little children is that so many things we strive and struggle for really are not nearly as important as we might think. Maybe it is the emotional and spiritual attributes that do matter the most, regardless of the childlike knowledge of things. God is love, not a library.

I can just see it now. Instead of "SDA", we would have, "COTIJ".... and everyone would call it "the Cottage cheese" church.