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It is helping me to understand better the evangelical mindset. I think you might still find some of that sentiment in present believers. I understand prayer as a heart cry.

I think Edward Bounds was somewhat of a zealot. I don't know that I'd have called him a "legalist," but I think some of what he wrote rather trended that way. One of his helpers wrote, "He often reprimanded me for asking the unconverted to sing of Heaven. Said he: 'They have no heart to sing, they do not know God, and God does not hear them. Quit asking sinners to sing the songs of Zion and the Lamb.'"

The way I found peace myself was recognizing when tempted I didn't have to nor a need to choose to follow the temptation, subsequently finding peace as a result of obedience (choosing to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit). Call it legalism if one will, would we rather follow that which is illegal? I am not saved by what I do, however I am saved by what Jesus does in and through me. 97O how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day. 98Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, For they are ever mine.… Psalms 119 165Those who love Your law have great peace, And nothing causes them to stumble.....Psalms 119 12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.....Revelation 14 God is Love!~Jesus saves!

The mating of "angels" (advanced humans from other worlds rather than mere angels) and earth women is a memory found recorded in the ancient traditions of every nationality on earth. It is in the Bible too, but people will choose to interpret it otherwise of course, as they do with everything in the Bible, according to their tastes rather than according to what is honest. As for combinations between men and animals (centaurs, mermaids, etc.), this too is recalled in the ancient traditions of many peoples around the world. That of course wasn't through mating, not ordinarily anyway, but by means of advanced technologies like our own --we are not the first to have advanced civilization. Is this in the Bible? I think so, but again whatever I show will be interpreted a thousand different ways according to a thousand different tastes, as with everything in the Bible. In either case, mixing contrary species destroys the works and temples of God, and God will not tolerate it. If our civilization is beginning to do this, we won't have long to wait until God puts a stop to it just like before.

I don't think a person needs to bare his/her life and soul to run for political office (or for any job). No matter how truthful a person tries to be, if there is an opposition, they will find **something** about which to harangue or throw mud Even someone who is sharing his/her story for personal witnessing will find people who take what they say, and twist it into something completely vile.

People differ as to their needs and what they need in answers. Yes, eternity will be a time in which we get answers that we do not have here on Earth. Regardless, we must in once sense of the work respond to the questions that people ask.

I am reading a short book by E.M. Bounds entitled, The Necessity of Prayer. Now, Bounds comes from the era of the American Civil War. He was a chaplain in the Confederate side and was highly regarded as a man of prayer. Of Christ he wrote: "Our Lord Jesus Christ, who was, "holy, harmless, undefined, separate from sinners" (Hebrews 7:26), had ready access to God in prayer. He had this free, full access because of His unquestioning obedience to His Father. Throughout His earthly life His supreme care and desire was to do the will of His Father. This fact, coupled with another- the consciousness of having so ordered His life- gave Him confidence and assurance. It enabled Him to draw near to the throne of grace with unlimited confidence born of obedience, promised acceptance, audience, and answer." P.98, emphasis as in the book How do you understand this? Is he saying that the confidence comes from our performance? Or does the confidence result from peace in the heart? Is this legalism?

I think it is possible that the Jewish scripture translations subtly manipulated the translations to minimize the deity of Christ.

Some scientists claim that it won't be long until they are able to construct a "perfect" human genome in a petri dish. If they ever reach that point, they will be claiming the power of God; and the end will come.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Hebrews 10:4-10 “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." Acts 13:38-39 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.” Romans 3:28-30 “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.” Zechariah and Elizabeth were "justified" by their faith, NOT BY the sacrifices they offered. Romans 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” For my part, I believe the Father has spoken. He has provided the Lamb. His hand tore the veil of the Temple from top to bottom. His spirit inspired the disciples and apostles with the clear message that forgiveness of sins is by faith alone, and may be found without offering the blood of an animal.

While we may know parts or some of the answers we cannot and should not expect to know them all on this Earth. I agree with Pam.

Very sincere people exist on both sides of this issue. Unfortunately, there is a lot of error in what many are saying/posting.

I agree with that. Self-righteousness is not the wedding garment. We need the righteousness of Christ. But what is His righteousness? Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." He did not say, "If you love me, I will keep God's commandments for you." When we choose to obey Christ of a sincere, loving desire to follow Him, and motivated by His Spirit, it is HIS works we are doing, not our own. Yet the choice to do them was ours. God does not force our choice/will. He never will. He has given us the power of choice, and He will not remove it. "God works, and man works," Mrs. White tells us. The process involves a cooperation. Jesus, alone, can never save us. If He could, then everyone in the world should be saved, or all could say God was unjust. No, God will not save us if we do not cooperate with Him in the process. There is a work that we must do. That brings us, perhaps, to the second point: resistance. The work of gaining salvation is one of copartnership, a joint operation. There is to be co-operation between God and the repentant sinner. This is necessary for the formation of right principles in the character. Man is to make earnest efforts to overcome that which hinders him from attaining to perfection. But he is wholly dependent upon God for success. Human effort of itself is not sufficient. Without the aid of divine power it avails nothing. God works and man works. Resistance of temptation must come from man, who must draw his power from God. On the one side there is infinite wisdom, compassion, and power; on the other, weakness, sinfulness, absolute helplessness. {AA 482.2} God wishes us to have the mastery over ourselves. But He cannot help us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the powers and faculties given to man. Of ourselves, we are not able to bring the purposes and desires and inclinations into harmony with the will of God; but if we are "willing to be made willing," the Saviour will accomplish this for us, "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." 2 Corinthians 10:5. {AA 482.3}

Robert, I'll address just one point at a time. Let's start with the works. You quote Jack, I'll quote Ellen. Some may say it is exalting our own merits to expect favor from God through our good works. True, we cannot buy one victory with our good works; yet we cannot be victors without them. The purchase which Christ recommends to us is only complying with the conditions He has given us. True grace, which is of inestimable value, and which will endure the test of trial and adversity, is only obtained through faith and humble, prayerful obedience. Graces that endure the proofs of affliction and persecution, and evidence their soundness and sincerity, are the gold which is tried in the fire and found genuine. Christ offers to sell this precious treasure to man: "Buy of Me gold tried in the fire." The dead, heartless performance of duty does not make us Christians. We must get out of a lukewarm condition and experience a true conversion, or we shall fail of heaven. {4T 89.1}

You won't get to heaven by your works--but you won't get there without them either. There are certain works which man must do, and that God does not do for us. These include: confession, repentance, resistance against temptation, and faith. "But without faith, it is impossible to please God." (Hebrews 11:6) And James helps us understand that we are justified by works. (See James 2:20-26.)

Good that you wrote your insight for all to see. It's an echo of my sentiments. Taliban SDA's of today = the Pharisees persecuting Jesus of His day.

Aaron and his sons entered into a “blood covenant” with Yahweh on the day which began their consecration (Lev. 8:22). They placed their hands on the head of the second ram and pledged obedience and faithfulness to Yahweh, on pain of death. So I would point out that only faithful sons of Aaron would continue as priests, under this Aaronic priestly covenant. Not a single one of the Aaronic priests obeyed perfectly. They all stand condemned to death without The One Offering that can cover their sins. Those who sought the LORD in humility of heart will be forgiven, and will be delivered into the Kingdom of Messiah, where they will continue as priests - under the New Melchizedek order which will include all of Israel redeemed. The Aaronic priesthood was a prophecy of Christ and of His Melchizedek priests, just as every sacrifice was a prophesy of Jesus the "lamb of God". By the time of Christ, the position of High Priest was occupied by a Roman appointee. Annas and his sons were imposters. Israel really had no High Priest by that time, and the Day of Atonement ceremony would therefore have been unacceptable to the LORD.

I "believe the Word of God". I do not agree with your interpretation of the Word of God, concerning the Levitical priesthood.

I was always taught that it was He'd give us no more than we could handle. It wasn't until 5 or 10 years ago that I'd realized I'd been taught incorrectly. There's always a way He will give us to get through any difficulty (and that's pretty cool). But I'm gonna beg to differ, Gail. There's a whole lot of other stuff we can pray for--even if there's nothing that we can't handle at the moment.

If we never had more than we could handle there would never be a reason to pray. If I remember correctly, the Bible promises a way of escape (1 Cor 10:13). What form that takes is up to Him. We could prepare for surprises

Ron, I may not always have an answer ready, for something that you post. I may need to think about it, and pray about it, and study awhile.

It's sad that the "Taliban" SDA's around us want to demonize a movement that focuses on our relationship with Jesus rather than a relationship with a denomination. Although on the other end of the spectrum, the denomination's fight with so-called "independent" ministries in the late 80's and early 90's was based on the same premise - "believe what we tell you to believe or you will be 'encouraged' to leave. Be very afraid of anyone to tries to add or subtract from what we tell you." Elder Johnsson eloquently expressed the frustration of SDA's wanting to explore a personal relationship with Jesus and include those outside the SDA community who may have insight into the spiritual realm. We SDA's don't have a monopoly on Jesus or the Holy Spirit. We can learn from others just as they can learn from us. My one experience with the One Project was one of the most inspiring meetings I have ever attended in an SDA setting.

As I said, my source is Genesis 6:4 - "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown". In the Book of Job, the angels (including satan) were called "sons of God". How hard is it to conclude that Nephilim were the hybrid offspring (amalgamation?) of angels (albeit fallen angels) and women? I've seen the explanations that spiritualize this away; I prefer to take the Word literally. Whoever the Nephilim were, they were obviously scary creatures - "We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.” (Num. 13:33)

Robert I agree. There don't seem to be high numbers of "views" of this thread. We should probably just let it go. I wanted to help my formerly Catholic friend. I've found some good answers in the book I previously mentioned. My overall feeling - concerning Catholicism, having now read the book I mentioned, is that it prevents RELATIONSHIP with God. It's all about keeping track of sins committed and sins absolved. It is "salvation by sacrament". If I complete the "sacraments" and receive "absolution" from a priest, then God will not send my soul to Hell for eternal torment. Instead of a relationship like that of children with a loving parent, Catholicism seems more like living with a raging despot scorekeeper, whom one must placate. Mary is needed as a "mediator" because Jesus is "God", therefore too much like His Father (or maybe He is the Father - just in another form). One can imagine a relationship with Mary as a sweet "mother". Baptists (and many other Evangelical denominations) seem to live in a similar (though less threatening) posture towards God. There are not as many "sacraments" to complete. Their "once saved - always saved" doctrine offsets the terrible (relationship destroying) thought of eternal torment in Hell fire. I see the "perfection" teaching of some Adventists, in much the same light. If I believe I must be completely "like Christ" in order to be translated when He appears, then I will constantly monitor my own progress towards that goal. Even if I believe that any "perfection" seen in my character, is the work of Christ - in me, I will still be looking for ways that I hinder His work in me. I'll be looking at me, and worrying about me - rather than trusting Christ and looking at Him. I'm not saying that self-evaluation is all bad - even if the "standard" seems unattainable. And a "mirror" is a necessary tool. I'm saying that self-evaluation MUST be balanced by an awareness of God's infinite, compassionate, ongoing, forgiving love. I'm saying that one cannot view "God" was a scorekeeper - or for that matter, as going through "books" to decide whether He will save you (the SDA version) - and grow in a relationship.

When I dwelt on the "why does God..." and "why doesn't God..." questions, those were big factors in pushing me over to witchcraft and worship of the goddess — because there were always answers to such questions in paganism. But God isn't beholden to make Himself understood to us. It makes me a bit uncomfortable to see people try and explain hard problems that seem to involve the "will of God." God's **will** is that everyone be happy, that everyone be healthy, that everyone be saved. But that's not how life works where Satan has a foothold... actually, more than a foothold — he directs the choir.

How was the "ceremonial laws" against us? Heb 10:1 For the Law...was only a shadow of the good things to come (i.e., Christ righteousness)... verse 3: in those sacrifices (i.e., the ceremonial laws - see Lev 23) there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. I submit to you that the "handwriting of the ordinances" was the record of our sins. These sins were "against us" and placed in death row awaiting the judgment.

i have asked that - if they must -- please pick some other form of abomination to toy with -- not this one.

Instead of tithing to the GC, I spend lots of money on DVD blanks, copier paper, printer toner, address labels, etc. This is for a mass mailing of the Three Angel's Message to whole zip codes around the USA. And some members of the church would rather help me with this where they know exactly how their money will be spent: for direct literature evangelism rather than air-condition bills for huge SDA church buildings, etc. I've been told this is wrong, just to send tithe & offerings to the GC and leave it up to God. I can't decide, so I go ahead and help with the mailings.