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Gerry: In a democracy, such as the United States. the minority has some rights that the majority cannot abridge. If you want to say that in such the minority prevails, you can do so. But, if you do so, your view presents a misunderstanding of our democratic right in the U.S. In a democracy, such as ours, the majority and the minority, may exercise their rights without abridging the rights of the other. E.G The minority right of Sabbath keepers does not abridge the rights of the Sunday keepers. In our situation as it pertains to the ordination of women: The rights of your minority to ordain women does not abridge the rights of the majority not to ordain women. Problems occur only when one side attempts to force the other side to do what the one side wants. E.G. Such as your minority attempting to force your majority to ordain women. Or, the other way. Ellen White was clear: The Unions were established so that people working in a local area did not have to go the General Conference to ask permission.

It would be a huge thing to me if this was not a trivial item, and I know calling it trivial will seem insulting to some, but it is not. So a conference thinks that women should be able to organize and close Churches. that is about the only difference between a Commission Pastor and an Ordained... for that they are willing to risk splitting the Church I say leave the Unions and Conferences alone, if they grow than good, if they fail to grow the mission of the Church then they need to re evaluate. The proof will be in the pudding. Not difficult to me.

When Church leaders are willing to have a Church split over the trivial differences of what a Commission Minister and an Ordained Minister can or can not do, we either need new leaders or a new Church.

Well by now you all probably have heard that Matthew will be hitting Florida. I will be praying for all those islands that Matthew has already hit! They say we will probably lose power, so might not be posting for a few days. So add your prayers for all in the path of Matthew.

Not only our nation, but most of the nations is the world. The beast power is the union of church and state; and their incentive to unite is economics. Follow the money trail.

Yes! Church (philosophy) State (mighty military) and Economics (greed -follow the money trail). Our Nation has infested heavily in all three.

The unholy trinity - politics, economics, and religion.

I am beginning to think that this whole election thing is satire along with the current squabble of WO and conference issues!! How could it be anything but!!

Are not decisions about membership and disfellowshipment matters for local congregations?

A bit of historical trivia as it pertains to the SDA denomination. By the way, while the actual facts may be true, please do not take me seriously as to their application. I am simply having some fun. In the early days of our developing denomination, one of the clergy who became part of us was an Episcopalian priest. Under the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, his ordination can be traced back to Saint Peter. Therefore, any SDA clergy whom he ordained, also, under RC doctrine, can trace their ordination back to Saint Peter. Who knows, many of our SDA clergy today may be able to trace their line of ordination back to Saint Peter.

that just seems weird to me... If all elders have to be ordained by ordained pastors, then all pastors have a common link up the line of antiquity of one common person who began the ordaining process. Who would that be? (And don't tell me it was Jesus — I don't think He ordained anyone....rather, He *commissioned* them. Funny that *that* wouldn't be sufficient now...)

In 2005 the GC voted to allow women to divorce their husbands for spousal abuse such as beating their wives. In the past churches in south America would dis fellowship women who would divorce their husbands for any reason other than adultery. This vote taken by the GC in session and passed was rejected by South American Division and they said they would ignore the vote. Now the same division is asking for the Unions in North America to be punished for ordaining their women. Yet NOTHING is being done to the South American Diversion for ignoring the vote to NOT disfellowship women who divorce their husbands for beating them. So why is this. Well South American has more members than the North American Division has and again this is a vote against women and Ted Wilson seems to have it in for the women in our church. This is hypocrisy in the first order.

It is about whether they can be a conference president or not. Ordained can; commissioned can't. That is what it boils down to. The GC doesn't mind if women are elders or pastors. The GC doesn't want them in the position of conference president.

Good Morning, I am so happy to tell you all about an awesome program with my 2 friends, Sam Ocampo and Scott Reed. You all know Scott Reed from being a part of the Heritage Singers, Faith First, and Family Reunion Music. Sam is an awesome pianist. As a matter of fact, Sam played the piano for the Heritage Singers, when I sang with the group. He has an amazing solo ministry now. He also does many concerts with Jaime Jorge. For years, WHITE MEMORIAL MEDICAL CENTER has presented a phenomenal worship experience. It is a FREE event with great musicians, followed by free lunch. October 22 at 10:30 AM! We are excited with the lineup of talent, including grammy winner Maestro Lee Holdridge and his orchestra, Latin singer Ricardo Rodriguez (Miami), Scott Reed (Chicago), a live orchestra, choir by Lilybeth Hunt, a live band, pastor Harold Alomia (Lincoln, NE) and many other guests! Here is a sample YouTube Song of Sam and Scott. I know that you will be so blessed. https://youtu.be/XCfFiokfAaE Join us in this special annual morning worship service. Hope to see you Southern Californians there! . You won't want to miss this program.

When persons of Spiritual integrity confronted Church leaders about errors in teaching, in the 1500s and after, we hail them as Reformation heroes. How is it, that in the Third Millenium, we are urged to abandon our conscience in favor of "church unity"? The counsel of Acts 4 is that we should obey God, rather than man. I have been a baptized member of the Adventist Church for 53 years. I was an ordained minister of the Church in three different conferences. I love the Adventist Church. I believe in the message of the Church, but, I will not sacrifice my conscience because of a majority vote. History has repeatedly shown that the majority is very often wrong! If the General Conference takes punitive actions against Unions who follow their consciences, it is time to "stand for the right though the heavens fall." My faith is in Jesus Christ and the Bible, not in humans, even if they are elected officials.

I believe that Jesus did voluntarily leave His pre-incarnate "God stuff" in heaven when He came to earth. Everything He did while on earth was through the power and commands of His Father. Did He take His "God stuff" back when He ascended into heaven? Or is His "God stuff" what we now call the Holy Spirit, or Comforter? Jesus did say He would be with us always, even until the end of the age. Is He with us now through His Spirit ("God stuff")? Is what many people call the 3rd person of the Trinity actually the Spirit ("God stuff") of Christ? I think so. That makes me a "Twinitarian"

"When the Holy Spirit leaves the church, all we have left is religion". - Bono (maybe not the exact quote)

In a world where sinful self will reigned in human hearts unless God was allowed to intervene, the cutting of the flesh was a symbol of the self denial that occurred in anyone who had faith towards God and stepped away from service to sin to serving the will of God. It was a mark of the identity of a people with a divine purpose walking in an eternal covenant relationship with God. Entering into this blood covenant with God one circumcised their male babies. Adult males who wished to enter this covenant relationship would also allow this service to be performed. No one circumcised themselves it was performed on them. This makes me think of baptism which now both male and female participate in, and which you cannot do to yourself, and it is accompanied by vows of commitment and involved consecration to God's will. The children could grow up knowing their parents obeyed the Lord and set them apart to do God's will. Jesus knew he was going to be born into the human family and he set up this service to be in perpetual obedience knowing he would be one of those babies so consecrated at birth to fulfill the will of God. The circumcision that pointed to the covenant offered by Christ is fulfilled by Christ. The shedding of blood was a symbol of the blood of Christ by which the covenant was ratified. We now enter this covenant at Christ's invitation by baptism, and then by a daily baptism we die to our self will and by the power of God do God's will. Christ fulfills the conditions for us to enter into this covenant in us. Jesus marked the end of everything in the Jewish economy that pointed to him. He was the fulfillment of the temple services and the feasts, all the blood sacrifices and the circumcision. His blood was the blood that established the covenant for eternity no more blood needed to be shed. Jesus self denial was perfect and complete, His self control stronger that death, His sacrifice was sinless and able to pay the price to redeem the race and bring an end to all sin in the universe forever. In the Jewish religious services all other blood shed was animal blood. The blood of the circumcision was human blood showing dedication of humanity to God. The Sabbath was given before man sinned. Jesus rested from the labor of creation with Adam and Eve and entered into a whole relationship with them on the Sabbath. And then Jesus rested on the Sabbath after finishing the work of redeeming the human race. The Sabbath observance is a spiritual experience possible only by the redeeming power of Jesus in our hearts. It is an experience of a blessing in our relationship with God, sign of God being our creator and redeemer. The one who created us also is the one who redeems us from the power of selfishness, and sanctifies us day by day. The Sabbath observance had been reduced to a set of rules to follow by which you could force God to bless you. And circumcision was also one of the rules you followed to secure God's blessings. They were in fear of losing God's blessings but also in growing resentment towards Christ who was free of fear and full of power to do miraculous things. Jesus asked them to look beyond the external and they were confounded.