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I remember fleeing from the Japanese soldiers during WW2. One evening, I could see the !/3 moon shining brightly through our window when my Uncle-in-law came by our house warning us that the Japanese were getting close to our village. My Dad quickly hitched the carabao and we left for the hills. I was probably 4 at the time.

Of course, Adventists should a good understanding of hermeneutics! But have our own Adventist hermeneutics? We might as well have an Adventist scientific method too? For a hermeneutics, i.e. Biblical hermeneutics is the study of the principles of interpretation concerning the books of the Bible, to be valid, it must be applicable to Baptists, Catholics, and everyone else who who wants to study and understand the Bible!

Writing an hour ago, Kevin Straub posted a comment that I believe deserves its own thread. So, I quote it below--Gregory Matthews 'I am of the conviction that the "Adventist" hermeneutic pertains to the very oracles of God: the Spirit of Prophecy, the Law (with the Sabbath) and the Sanctuary. Particular emphasis on the Sanctuary. This must be the overlay, the filter, through which we understand all of inspiration. I very much appreciate the article by Canale which emphasizes this point "A Close Look at the Adventist Mind" http://www.perspectivedigest.org/article/82/archives/17-4/a-close-look-at-the-adventist-mind " In short I encourage you to read the article by Canale and comment on it.

this is pretty cool...

Rachel often does not represent Seventh-day Adventist thought in her posts, as she does not consider herself to be a SDA. But, there are times when she does represent SDA thought, at least in part. It is in this respect that Rachel has been proclaiming in several posts a partial SDA belief. Archangel: Rachael clearly states that Biblically Michael, the Archangel is Christ. That is SDA teaching and has been for years. For a statement on this, see Vol 10 of the SDABC, page 878 & 879. There many other references that would support this view. However, the SDA position goes a bit beyond what might be the common thinking that equates Michael the Archangel with being a created angel. As the above says, Christ, the archangel is:

My earliest memory is a few months befor I turned three. My parents were farmers and had a large Holstien bull that had not been dehorned. He tried to gore my mother and missed her by inches when she rolled under the fence. My dad snugged him up to the tractor and sawed off his horns. I remember my mother crying and all the blood and begging my dad not to hurt him. Pretty silly when the bull would have killed her .

I remember sitting in my high chair and I figured out my mother and sister were understanding each other... I blurted out noise thinking it would work, shouted, they laughed at me. True Story.

Wow, Gerry!

I find it rather difficult to take seriously the info from conspiracy websites...

No....have you forgotten about King David, lier, aldulter, murderer, etc...a favorite of God??

I can remember when we first moved to the US from Germany, probably in late 1950/early '51. We lived down on the eastside of Manhattan, a Jewish neighborhood. Across the street was a park, and on the other side of the park the East River. You actually had to cross over the East River Drive or Harlem River Drive, as the park was on the other side. They had a guy who was taking pictures, so got to sit on a phony. Across the river was Brooklyn and the Dominos Sugar Factory, where my Father worked before he took a job in a butcher factory up in the Bronx. I was around 3 1/2-4 yo.

the author actually did talk about the unity in diversity, and how it was good in one sense, but not so in another sense... I'm *for* Women's Ordination. I just think it behooves us to see the "other side's" perspective. It doesn't do anyone any good to summarily dismiss the heartfelt beliefs of others in the church who don't agree on the issue.

Board sidewalks and splinters, small aluminum trailer housing park in Portland,Oregon. Post WW2 GI housing. Sister and I going skinny dipping in wading pond at same place, neighbors complaining about us being naked in the park! Probaly about 4y/o.

I just thought it was an interesting "editorial" from one on the anti WO side of the aisle...

Not really sure of my exact age or which very early memory was the first, but I am fairly certain I was no more than 3 or 4. The first is walking through a dark and scary hallway past an alcove going into the empty south wing of the big old farmhouse before my father tore that wing off, and later throwing stones into the bonfire of the debris. I remember the stones exploding which was great fun for a little kid. The other memory is being with my oldest brother in the haymow in the barn in a tunnel of a hay fort that was up high enough that the tunnel passed by a small window under the edge of the barn roof. We were looking out the window and saw a black bear walking across hillside behind the barn. My childish memory is of a scary large bear with big claws. (That may have been the source of later nightmares of being chased through the barn by a large bear.) Years later recalling that memory with my Dad he said it was really only a scrawny yearling bear. He added a detail that I did not remember of the cows in the field between the barn and the bear. They were huddling together with their horns facing outward protecting their calves in the middle of the huddle. Bonnie, I remember well that gruesome and bloody dehorning process...

The Jewish leaders and people who did reject Christ rejected Him because they were looking for a king that would fulfill their political ambitions and longing for national greatness as an indicator God's favor was with them, to lift them above the fallen nations around them. They were looking for fulfillment of the desires of their human ego. When God did bless them they took those blessings to themselves to lift up themselves rather than giving God glory, and witnessing to the fallen nations of His goodness to them, as sinners, and His love for them as sinners. This left them without the power of God to live Godly lives. They took the blessings of God and consumed them on the alters of their desires, and would end up worshiping idols to further gratify themselves. This is what we will always eventually do without receiving the gift of surrender to His will for us and not our own. When we receive the blessings of God as a source of the fulfillment of our desires, rather then a deliverance from ourselves... we frustrate the grace of God. When we encounter the Cross of Christ and are satisfied that by the Cross our lives are made better, and do not allow Jesus to save us from the power of sin in our past and our present and our future, when we deny that he is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the earth, and the present mighty Intercessor for all mankind, then we miss what he came to do for us and for the world. (sorry, i know long sentence.) If the Lord is not made our righteousness then we have no righteousness at all. If the Lord is not made our wisdom we are foolish still, indeed. If the power of Christ's kindness towards us does not lead us to repent and turn from ourselves and live by the power of His love then we are self serving. The conundrum is this. I am saved by Christ yet remain a sinner. God walks with sinners, and continually blesses them in order that they might live, but live not merely for themselves, but live in His strength and witness to His power to save us from the power of sin even while we live as broken earthen vessels. This is what Jesus did, Jesus lived by faith and drew from heaven what he needed every day to live for God's glory. We are offered Christ's life, we are offered His faith and His righteousness, His ways and not our ways. Where and how do we obtain this? From a Faith that penetrates behind the veil, that enters into the presence of God in the Most Holy Place, where Jesus intercedes for us, with a mighty intercession by His blood. It is for us to look and live. A faith that is merely satisfied to live a trouble free blessed life, is not a faith that leads to ongoing deepening surrender to the will of God. I believe there are different theologies that have different end results in the life. Did Jesus come to helps us have a pleasant life on earth? or an eternal life here and in heaven, in the face of everything life may throw at us either in prosperity or in trouble?

Also there is apparently a strong literary connection with Joshua's "The Captain of the Lord's Host" and Daniel's "Prince of the Hosts" indicating that they are both the same person. When John wanted to bow down to an angel he was told not to do it, but when Joshua bowed to the Captain of the Lord's hosts/the prince of the hosts/Michael, he was told that bowing was not good enough he also needed to remove his sandals because he was on holy ground. Rachael, you may enjoy reading "The God of Old" by Rabbi James Kugel.

i hear Him saying we need to get back to bible study as a foundation for faith and love to God, and he says the pioneers derived truth directly from scripture without traditional Protestant methods for deriving truth. There is a great evangelical movement ongoing as in the Billy Graham crusades. It brings many people to a decision about Christ and then they go to their churches for traditional instruction. The hope is that their walk will lead them to be ready to meet Jesus when he comes, that their experience will be progressive and enable them to meet each test that will come progressively deeper till we see Jesus come in the sky. But that is not their focus. That is not the focus to traditional Protestantism or Catholicism I do not see the popular Gospel as preparing people to meet Jesus but as an encounter with Christ that results in bringing comfort and hope to live better lives and be happier and solve daily problems better. It seems a focus on making this life better. It seems an offer to everyone a warm fuzzy from God. This is not the light of seeing every human being as sin broken and yet divinely favored and loved and redeemed, and so lets let everyone know that Christ has provided everything we need to stand before God and be ready when Jesus comes. Canale says, " These simple observations on evangelical and Adventist theological methodologies may help Adventists to understand two pivotal points involved in their relations with evangelicals. " and "Imperceptibly, church leaders accommodate Adventist life and mission to the evolving theologies, liturgies, and ministerial paradigms of American evangelical culture. Consequently, evangelical theologies and practices are increasingly shaping Adventist thinking. " He seems to be suggesting that we are not retaining our God designed mission and distinct identity among other Christians. i can see this. we are caught up in some headship theologies, and power and authority issues that are not Spiritually healthy leading us to depend on humanity rather than on God. i do personally see the focus of general Christianity as a cultural generator, with prosperity, happiness, and success meeting the demands of life at every stage as social markers. We would all like to have the Good lives of Good people in Good churches. And new Adventist members typically are broken into the culture and not necessarily into the theological movement. i cannot say it is because of the thought leaders of our churches. i am not sure the responsibility can be placed there. On the borders of Canaan the priests carried the ark into the Jordan getting their feet wet, and all the rest of the people followed safely on dry land. The priests represent the laity and the ministers, the body of Christ on earth. The ark represents the Most Holy Place. There is the sanctuary truth, the righteousness of God preparing us and empowering us to go forward. In each Christian life some shadows will fall. I do not know if it is my theology that empowers me to witness and live beyond the trials. I am studying, and my faith is growing, so perhaps it is more closely connected to my studying then i would causally understand. The proof of the pudding is not in my social and life success, the proof is in the reality of God being true, and him being faithful to everything he has promised in whatever struggle i am in before, during, or after . And the revelation of this in my life is my witness. so how do i see my thinking, as an example of an Adventist mind, as being impacted by evangelical theologies. when i feel i have arrived by just having a good life, and my enemy being my hardships, and thinking i just need to be good, and to be more compliant and co-operative and do all my society expects of me.... ... this would be partially the prosperity Gospel. In contrast am i seeking the Lord and accepting the voice of God in my soul exposing my need of God, and His complete provision for my needs. And having faith and love towards God in the promises fully provided by Christ. hmmm

Here is another statement of interest:

Debbym has done well in her attempt to summarize some of what Dr. Canale said. I will suggest that the following statement by Dr. Canale is of interest:

he utilizes definitions i am not extremely familiar with. i would like to make an attempt to summarize. He has made a construct of theological methodology as a three fold vehicle in which protestantism continues to be in some ways attached to and increasingly returning to Catholicism. He understands that Luther's move away from the ecclesiastical authority of Rome was not the completed reformation, and he identifies steps by reformers to continue this change, but identifies ongoing systematic intellectual mechanisms by which the reformation is not only now eventually failing but digressing in a return to Catholicism. this is fascinating. He has made observations that current theological methodologies have been incorporated that appear to reinforce the distinction of Adventism acknowledging specifically the uniqueness of the Sanctuary doctrine, among other various doctrines but then leaves them still as peripheral, and disempowered. These methodologies retain strings intrinsic to Catholicism This is because the center of the Protestant or Evangelical world still is not completely removed from Rome and is able to return back to the "Mother" church. What does not allow us to do this is having a hermeneutic derived from an understanding of Christ in the sanctuary that sees every truth about Christ being fully connected from the beginning of Scripture to the end. he quotes Froom ... " In Movement of Destiny, Froom singles out the sanctuary as the most separative Adventist doctrine. According to him, neither the early church nor the Reformation taught this doctrine. Nonetheless, he did not suggest that Adventists should abandon their understanding of the sanctuary but sought to soften its divisiveness by ignoring its hermeneutical role." Froom is further credited... " This change in the understanding of the hermeneutical conditions of theological methodology requires a change in the material condition. Since evangelical theology does not build on Scripture alone, progressively Adventists no longer developed their theological understanding from Scripture alone but also from the multiplicity of theological sources used by evangelical and Roman Catholic theologians. " By adopting the systems from the "theological traditions of Protestantism" for their functional hermeneutics there is a corruption of our identity and loss of understanding the scope and current thrust of Adventism in the world today. In this way we lose everything distinctive about our position and relationship the the rest of Christianity in the world today. the author writes " At the beginning of the 21st century, the supernatural power/praise paradigm of ministry of evangelicalism is replacing the Bible study/theological understanding paradigm of ministry of earlier Adventists. As a result of this mostly unrecognized phenomenon, the Protestantization of Adventism is reaching the pews around the world. According to the Protestant ministerial paradigm, God grants salvation by His supernatural decision and power. Consequently, the ministerial method becomes the proclamation of the Cross as complete atonement, justification, and the assurance of salvation. As a result, those Adventist ministers who follow the Protestant paradigm no longer see the need for Bible studies as a condition for baptism, spirituality, or salvation. Because the evangelical understanding of the gospel continues to play the macro-hermeneutical role in theological method, Adventists feel free to drink from evangelical theological reflection and ministerial practices. In this way, evangelical theologies and ministerial practices will shape Adventist thinking and lifestyle for years to come. The limited and partial phenomenological analysis of selected evidence leads only to initial conclusions calling for further research and verification. The Protestantization of the Adventist mind and lifestyle is real, ongoing, broad-reaching, and intensifying. Disconnected from the doctrinal formulations of the church, the Protestantization phenomenon takes place at the existential level of thinking, feeling, and acting. " and he then concludes " Adventists must develop the sola scriptura systematic theology project at the scholarly level. This requires a shared understanding of the conditions of theological methodology and a solid commitment to scholarly research that challenges the strong houses of Christian theology to establish Christianity upon an eternal basis. This project should include the development of Adventist theology in neglected scholarly disciplines, such as fundamental, biblical, systematic, and ministerial theologies. In a time when Protestant leaders are going back to Rome, Adventist leaders, administrators, pastors, and scholars should be going back to Scripture and using the sanctuary doctrine as the hermeneutical key to understand the complete and harmonious system of biblical truth. When the inner logic of God’s Word, through the educational ministry of the Holy Spirit, penetrates our hearts and we treasure it in the inner recesses of our spirits, we will no longer experience doctrine as “brain” knowledge but as the transforming and saving power of God through the Holy Spirit. Then the church will be of one mind, and Adventism will fulfill its God-given final mission. "

I found the article tediously difficult to wade through, and abandoned it after about one third of the way...

A favorite show. I had recorded it and have now watched it. Very interesting. A positive coverage actually, compared to what it could have been.

Hermeneutics are very powerful in determining how you derive is truth from scripture. i have observes people deriving truth from scripture in a very superstitious way, or a very dramatic free association of one scripture to another, selectively ignoring other text. i have seen approaches as if the whole bible were such a mysterious strange concoction of expression anything anyone wants to think or believe the bible says they will find it. I have also seen this with people who approach the bible to utterly ridicule the possibility the scripture even has truth. There are many ways to find oneself in a ditch and off the road, and getting nowhere in understanding God's thoughts towards us communicated in Scripture.

If you had called it a mechanical goat I would not have argued with you.

There is an ancient maxim: "Of the dead, nothing but good." Morris Venden's sermons and his counsel had a powerful effect on my life. "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." Everything human is a part of me.

Hmmmm, can anyone tell me what is 'conservative' about that statement? Sounds more like the opposite! But, putting all that type of rhetoric aside, the Gospel is always the central theme wether a so called liberal or conservative.

This is an obituary thread, and the above comment is out of line, in my opinion. Perhaps the forum should have a "venom" thread, where people could malign the dead and keep old wounds open by an inflicting a drop or two of vitriol every so often.