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here's the video on YouTube:

Jus for the discussion, let us say that HCH is correct and President Obama remains President after January 20. What would that prove? Well, it would prove that HCH was correct in his statement that President Obama would continue to be President after January 20. It would not prove that HCH was correct in anything else that he said. Further, and most important, it would not prove that the Bible predicted such, as HCH claims. Let me illustrate: I predict that on January 22, 2017 the sun will rise in the morning and it will set in the evening. If it happens, I will be correct. But, such would not prove that I had been correct if I had based my prediction upon a verse in the Bible, or even several of them.

A pastor I now explains it like this: isogesis vs exogesis. He sees it as the reason for all confusion.

Joeb was saying (I think) that there isn't anything in the church nowadays that can't be gotten outside of the church. The church has become a means for displaying "correct" behavior and ideas on the one hand, and complacent minimalizing behavior on the other. I don't think it's offered Spirit-filled fellowship and interaction for decades and decades and decades, if indeed it ever has. Yes, there's some "feel good" congregations, with all the soft fuzzies. But is that preparing anyone for the 2nd coming? Is it? Really? .... not much. The church isn't offering people, members nor nonmembers, *hope*. Oh yes, a watered down hope is offered by platitudes that all Christian churches spout from the pulpit. But people need to understand that the Hope in Christ is REAL. Hope that this present life isn't all there is. Hope that suffering will end with something great and spectacular beyond that. Hope that the futility that haunts so many people's lives isn't an end to to all ends. And it's not just the poor or sick who need the Hope. The church is not "grabbing" those with apparent prosperous and successful lives and showing them that the church has something to offer *them*.... I think God brought about the Seventh-day Adventist church as a vehicle to show the world what the early Christian church was like... how Christians were supposed to behave towards one another and towards God. But look what it's become: the church is now known for its infighting on something as ridiculous (yes, I said *ridiculous*) as to whether women should be ordained. What a colossal waste of time, money, and energy. And Satan is just absolutely delighted with the whole affair. What better way to keep the Light of Hope away from people than by placing in the minds of the church membership a counterfeit "church issue" to contend with. Yeah...Satan's just delighted. The Adventist Church has lost its way. I sometimes just want to get up on a soapbox and tell the church exactly what I think.

Totally agree! I was thinking the other day of the early pioneers. There was no SDA denomination. Everyone studied along with Miller and the adventists and went back to their own churches to worship. The only box they had to start from was what they learned up until then. The little groups dug and mined for truth. Some positions came quickly while others slowly. But they were indeed a people of the book. Whenever people come up with a creed I feel it limits God. I see it more as a, "This is what we know so far." That leaves the topics more open-ended.

Gail, When we confine God to our understanding of the bible, and believe we have it all figured out.... and something occurs outside of that framework and our faith crunches... we are in for a major growth spurt. When we are able to turn to God and His word and find our God is still prepared, a present help in time of trouble, and has made provision and His promises to us can stretch to whatever new demands that happen... then we are in for some great exercise of faith. when we think we have it figured out, and event or demand of faith finds still us confined to what we have known and we find it is not enough... we may lose faith, and walk away from the bible. for example, God's righteousness exceeded the righteousness of the pharisees. they had the law they had it all figured it out, they had the Scripture God box, but God was greater then they understood, and God's rigorousness was so much higher then they could even imagine.. So Jesus taught the sermon on the mount and people got out of the bible box that day.

that's true But is Women's Ordination supposed to be a *doctrine*?? It's certainly not so in my mind — but maybe it is in other people's minds...

I believe it is the young people who are leaving... and they were never really quite here. They are making up their mind, and a church that is not relevant, and closing doors on them for preparing to serve how they experience the Holy Spirit leading them.... they will go and serve the Lord where he leads. and it is not just the WO issue that we are losing them over, although that is one. EG White speaks of the masses who remain outside of the sda church because of the unconverted in the church, who feel they are great Christians. They are so offensive and misrepresenting of Christ that the children of God outside of the church would not survive if they joined the church.

It would be a huge thing to me if this was not a trivial item, and I know calling it trivial will seem insulting to some, but it is not. So a conference thinks that women should be able to organize and close Churches. that is about the only difference between a Commission Pastor and an Ordained... for that they are willing to risk splitting the Church I say leave the Unions and Conferences alone, if they grow than good, if they fail to grow the mission of the Church then they need to re evaluate. The proof will be in the pudding. Not difficult to me.

"When the Holy Spirit leaves the church, all we have left is religion". - Bono (maybe not the exact quote)