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I heard it was on a scouting mission for the flock... Why it was spotted as it crossed the road remains a mystery, though Colonel Sanders thinks perhaps the endless search for the secret 11 herbs and spices caused panic in said chicken, whereupon it lost focus of the mission.

I have often thought of having a forum on here for new thoughts, or something like that. Were people can express for discussion some are thinking and get feedback on it. I have told the story of the young girl who had thoughts about setting the Sabbath hours world wide to that of Jerusalem.. on how she got slammed dunked on that one. It is my opinion those who are weak on their position will slam dunk or bully those who differ.. I have never read that we have to answer 28 question correct on judgement day, but have read words by Jesus himself, will be more on how we treated other people. I detest slamming the Adventist Church, the Catholic Church, Muslim faith etc etc. I would rather encourage discussion of specific items. Just my 2 or 3 cents. and @Ron Amnsn as you know that has been upgrade to a Nickel in Canada.

"You carry matters to extremes and do harm to your own soul and to the truth. YOU MAKE THE TRUTH REPULSIVE AND CAUSE SOULS TO BE AFRAID OF IT. Let love soften your words and give tone to your actions, and you will find a change in those with whom you associate. There will be peace, union, and harmony, instead of strife, jealousy, and discord. Let love and tenderness be exercised, . . . and you will receive a blessing." {2T 439.1}

Even though the post count doesn't reflect it, I've been here for a long time. My “flashy” post infers a glaring observation. Can someone seriously tell me that this "vote" isn't just another jab at the world church? Are we so busy being galvanized that we don't remember that there's real trouble on the horizon? We’re sitting behind our champions, Ted Wilson and Doug Batchelor on one side and Sandra Roberts and Dan Jackson on the other wishing that God would pull a Numbers 16 and split the Earth. I'll admit, I fall politically askew to most of the posters here, so I don't involve myself in the day to day banter of this site. Maybe I just wanted to ruffle some feathers. Or maybe your question is appropriate, how DO I fit into your world?

We all have our opinions! Ya, word definitions do get in the way at times....wouldn't want to be on the same page now, would we!! Some get it, others may not!!!

It concerns me that we are even discussing an Adventist person of the year. Every year we look more and more like the world. "News Magazine" style stories dominate our publications. Personalities and social justice have become our favorite topics. Debate and opinion our new denominational past time. Politics has rendered us impotent as a body. The average pew sitter is a sitting duck for every wind of doctrine. All we're lacking is for Kanye West to steal the mic and tell us why we should have voted for Beyonce.

I see this so often in medical and dental offices. The clerical workers, who usually wear uniforms to look like nurses, are these days usually just graduates of some 3-month course in a technical school which doesn't teach proper sterile technique or professional demeanor, or even polite manners. The medical people are being required to perform so many more menial procedures [e.g., insurance forms, etc.] that the doctors and dentists are hiring clerks and training them to do one single procedure repeatedly -- without being concerned with the "big picture" and these high school graduates think they've "arrived" when they wear a uniform and work in a big office. But their coarseness shows through. There's no silk purse being made out of the sow's ear. I don't blame the doctors and dentists; they're being forced to save expenses on personnel because of cutbacks in their insurance reimbursement payments. It's a vicious circle. The doctors and dentists are having to scale back all their expenses because their incomes have been cut radically by insurance companies.

Perspicuity of Scripture is a doctrine that is central to the Protestant faith. It is advocated by the SDA denomination. It was believed by Luther and it has been discussed, without using its title here in Club Adventist. For more on this doctrine, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_of_scripture

I like the suggestion to include friends - Adventists n friends makes it inclusive yet focused. But club adventist works for me.

Well, would it be worthwhile to consider: "Adventist Soliloquy?" Or, perhaps, some form of that name?

If the purpose of the forum were to change, so that those who were loyal supporters of the SDA organization were more affirmed while those who were not loyal were less affirmed, then "Team Adventist" might be a good choice of name. However, if one of the purposes of the forum continues to be to reach out to those who may have been inadvertently hurt by the organizational machinery, and to those who feel rejection by the church at large because they are early adopters of teachings that are not yet accepted in the church, and to those who may have left the church years ago and are tentatively considering a return to church, then "Team Adventist" may not be the best choice. That name brings to mind a unified group with loyalty to the Team leadership (presumably the leaders of the corporation) with maybe even cheerleaders and Amway-like motivational seminars, where those with doubts or anger or bruises or unwanted suggestions would be an unwelcome distraction. Teams often have opponents. People on the edges of the church probably wouldn't imagine they could be a valued part of "Team Adventist". (The name "Club Adventist" has some of these same drawbacks for those who don't stick around long enough to find out that Club Adventist can be a rather tolerant and welcoming place.)

I believe that if the Church fails to make certain changes that need to be made, in a time when they could be made, God will intervene in a manner to bring them about that will not be easy and fun. Having said the above, I believe: That the change most needed is to make the local congregation the primary focus of mission and ministry and that all other "higher" organizations should have as their mission and ministry that of helping the local congregation to identify their needs and to equip them for meeting those needs. That present focus of the Church, as I see it in practice today, is for each "higher" level of organization to bring all "lower" levels of organization into line so that all march in "lock step." As I come from a military background, let me illustrate from that background. Believe it or not. There is a science to the study of military operations and combat. Dependent upon their rank and position, all U.S. military officers are trained in the science of such. As part of their training, U.S. military officers are trained as to how a presumed enemy force is going to operate. The result is that during the so-called "cold-war" in any given situation the U.S. forces would be able to accurately predict how the Soviet forces would operate. This was because Soviet forces operated in strict accord with their doctrine. They did not deviate. The U.S. military also has clearly stated doctrine. That doctrine is under constant evaluation and changes as circumstances change. U.S. military forces are trained in that doctrine. But, on all levels, U.S. Commanders are expected to do what is needed to accomplish the mission. When it comes to a 4-star, that officer has total ability to disregard doctrine and to accomplish the mission in any manner that the 4-star choses. If a 4l-star issues an order that violates doctrine and policy, that order is put into effect. The classic case of this is our invasion of Iraq. The 4-star in charge was so successful, in part, due to the fact that the 4-star deployed U.S. forces in manner that was not in accord with the doctrine. I could give you other examples of such. W hen such happens, the President can remove the 4-star and such has been done. But, while the 4-star is in the position the 4-star can do what ever the 4-star thinks should be done. We need to put the local congregation into the 1st place. It should be the highest level of organization, not the General Conference.

What i was referring to, is those who come in here swinging verbal baseball bats at everything and everybody.

Green, let me respond to your comment to the effect that you have not felt welcomed here: * I cannot simply dismiss your feeling unwelcomed. It is how you feel, and it would be a disservice to you to simply dismiss it. * I must also say that there may very well be people here who do not welcome you. Such, if it is accurate, may simply be an aspect of their personality. As CA has a diverse membership, there is probably no person, to include, myself and all three of the Administrators who are welcomed by everyone. IOW, there are probably some who wish that the four that I have just mentioned were not here. * I can not speak for everyone. But, I want you to know that I welcome you here. Why? For a number of reasons. At an earlier time you and I have had some private conversations in which you have shared some of your experiences and your desire to work for the Lord. Out of those conversations I have developed a respect for you. In my perspective of you, I see you as dedicated to truth. While I may disagree with you, I respect you for that. I respect you for the depth that I typically see in your study of the issues, even when I may disagree with your conclusions. All of us, to include me, at times, are sloppy in our study and/or presentation of the issues. On a few occasions I have seen this in you. I have called you on this simply because I have felt that it was below what you were capable of doing and what you normally do. As an exception to what I typically see in you, I have strongly called you on a position that you took that I believe to attack a basic foundation of both the SDA Church and of Christianity. While you have never agreed with me on that point, you have properly responded and I respect you for that. * The bottom line is Green, that I not only welcome you here, but I think that you make a contribution to this forum. As I do disagree with you on some points, and probably we will never agree on those, I will continue to challenge you at times. But, so be it. That is what discussions are about. * It is clearly your choice as to whether or not you continue to participate in this forum. Your time, effort and emotional energy are all of value. If you decide that your participation here does not result in a return that justifies what it costs you to participate, I can only respect you for the decision that you make. I understand. I once made such a decision in another forum. But, I want you to know that if you chose to leave CA, I will be sorry as I do believe that you contribute something of value to this forum. * However, if you chose to stay, I do believe that you and I will differ at times and I expect to challenge you at times when I decide to do so.

I think the church is too top heavy. The church needs to be given back to the people.

Perhaps the stated goal at the leadership level, however from the heart level, what could we say about this example. 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked....1 John 2 34A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.”…. John 13 We are told many will come into the church in the end days (which I believe we are in) while many will also leave. The church I'm happy to belong to (SDAdventist) has expressed their love to my wife and I with tangible loving expressions and acts over the last four years that has made some very difficult times much more endurable. Each incident or event we attribute to the grace of Jesus. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God....Hebrew 12 God is Love!~Jesus saves!

I've continually heard that it is not Jesus being unwilling to return to this world but that it is the church who are not ready. Since only those who do not know Jesus are the only ones who cannot enter the Kingdom, it would seem to me since Jesus leaves no stone unturned to make sure all have opportunity to become acquainted with Him before He comes and since all humanity have free choice under His rule, the bride of Christ should concentrate on introducing Jesus to whoever will listen as primary and walk as closely as possible as Jesus would have us walk, discontinuing the sense of needing to be politically correct, all the more so as we see true Christianity falling into disfavor world wide. …13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24 God is Love!~Jesus saves!

Person of the Year: What should be the qualifications? I go back in time to TIME magazine and also current selections by the media. Their criteria did not include either positive or negative judgements of the individual. Rather, they chose based upon the decision as to who had the most impact upon society during the year. From that perspective, I think that President Ted Wilson stands head and shoulders above everyone else. People can debate whether his impact upon the SDA denomination has been positive or negative. that is a debate that I do not wish to engage in. Probably everyone is fixed in their opinion. Regardless I will suggest that his impact upon this denomination has been head and shoulders above that of anyone else. Therefore, I would have selected him.

In my opinion, the glorious or beautiful land referred to in Dan 11:16 is Israel. If that is correct, then it is hard to imagine that the Middle East is NOT linked to last day events. KJV Daniel 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed. If the glorious land is not Israel, I have yet no idea as to what country would that be. Ezekiel 20:6 In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:

I would also like to say that if Gail had not introduced me to CA several years ago, I would likely be an SDA drop-out today. There are many people here with whom I can identify - people who question the standards of the denomination or the historic interpretations of scripture. People who continue to struggle with overcoming the habitual sins and shortcomings,a d handicaps they have struggled with the majority of their lives. There are broken people here who just want to belong somewhere. Thank you CA, for giving me a reason to stay in the church.

I think the answer in the future will be small groups like the members of The Way did after Jesus' departure.

The article, to me at least, did not seem to recognize that those within the church may be the ones pushing others out. I have known those who have left the 'SDA church' and it was not over the issues mentioned. It was as Pam said, they felt isolated from the church because of what they were experiencing, the mentioned isues being included. Until the church sees itself as a family and less of a 'religion', I do not see those numbers changing. All of the emphasis on 'narrow road' it will be 'tough' are not in any way reassuring to those in need. Why that emphasis when we also teach that Christ will take our burden and carry it for us? We teach that peace can be found in Christ. My two-cents on the matter is that until the SDA church presents ifself as a 'safe' place like a family and not a place of 'buckle up, it ain't easy' salvation is only on this 'narrow' road and all the other clap trap 'guide lines', people will leave and not for the 'easer' path. They just are not wanted without conformity to a particular organizations rules. Christ had open arms and welcomed everyone, He died for everyone. The fault is not with those leaving, it is us who are not listening to them.

I actually cringe when I see this subject... I have not read all the posts so this may have been covered. If people are not allowed to leave, by their own choice, without pressure and harassment, after checking out adventism, then we become like a cult.

Our church is currently holding a Revelation evangelism series. It is being well attended even on a Saturday night. In our church with a well lit sign visible at the street identify it as an Adventist Church. No subterfuge. Not even for the initial meetings or promotions. Everyone walking in can't miss that this is an Adventist Church, including the 40 or so registered regular attendees that are not Adventists.

I agree with Gregory. People will know, if they are planning to hold the meetings at the church!

This includes those mobile phone photos people like to post "on the fly" when on vacation. http://pleaserobme.com