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Mario said: 1) What you see happen in an individual SDA congregation may not be related to the position of the denomination. The so-called 28 that you cite as found in the Appendix are there because they are not to be used as a requirement for baptism. 2) The requirement for baptism is found on pages 32 - 35. There are 13, not 28. 3) Again on the Revised 17th Edition, page 196 & 197, congregations and their ministers are prohibited from establishing a test of fellowship that differs from what I have stated in this post. 4) You tell us that a belief in the Spirit of Prophecy is a required belief. That is correct, it is # 8 of the 13. But, that is NOT a requirement to believe that Ellen G. White constitutes a fulfillment of that. One can believe, and be a SDA, believe that there is a Biblical doctrine of the Gift of Prophecy and not believe that EGW Filled that role. I do not know what you heard in December.

I only have a few of these left

A suggestion has come to me privately that some people here might like to know what I (I will include my wife in this.) may have purchased in the way of groceries yesterday. In thinking about this, I understand that on Facebook, which I really do not use, although I do have an account, it is common for people to post photographs of a meal that they may have eaten. So, after due consideration, I will post that I did purchase the following items yesterday: From Trader Joe's: Kale & Brocco Salad Cranberry Juice Cauliflower Riced Organic Garlic Hummus Eggplant Hummus Olive Hummus Bite Size Crackers Garlic Onion Parsle salt TJs Snacks From Whole Foods: Bulk Rolled Oats Organic Green Kale Organic Green Leaf LEettuce Hass Avocados Organic Bananas Fiesta Blend NOTE: Whole Foods gave me a 5 cent refund because I brought my own bag. I trust that this will satisfy peoples need to know what I purchased yesterday.

Any time yes means no, up means down, and strange means routine--the position, your position--is incoherent.

"Every sin must meet its punishment." --Lucifer (DA 761.4).

We have just finished the SS lesson study of the Biblical book of Job. For an interesting perspective on this study see: http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2017/01/16/job-and-wild-duck Perhaps the title of this thread should be: Henrik Ibsen and The Wild Duck. In any case, the above thread will not be what you expect.

I agree. To you, they are not.

I really don't think about getting disfellowshipped unfairly. I don't think about getting disfellowshipped at all. Being on the church books is immaterial to me. When I have "taken a vacation" from the church it has been because of me throwing a temper tantrum (my bad) or because of what I consider to be extreme imbalance in that specific congregation. If I were formally disfellowshipped I would still worship at an SDA church (or a messianic Jewish congregation); just not at the one that disfellowhipped me. I think church discipline is appropriate in certain instances; but for the most part, the "moral" reasons for disfellowshipping people are merely manifestations of self-righteousness. The church is supposed to be a safe haven for sinners to seek help - even if they backslide sometimes. When we turn it into a protective fortress for the "saints", we become Pharisees. Jesus came to save the lost; but sometimes it feels like the church is simply there to save the "already saved". But I agree with Wanderer. Most people leave the church because most of us aren't who SDA's say they are (no different than other denominations); so they leave out of disgust, disappointment, or discouragement that they don't meet the moral standards of the "saints".

What are you looking for when you read the scriptures? What is the purpose of the Bible? Is it just a novel with juicy stories or are the scriptures "they that testify of Me [CHRIST]" John 5:39? Most it seems read the Bible and believe that the only way to maintain and order is to use the strength of arms, to use force. They look at the wars of Israel and believe they are seeing the true Jesus. They do not believe that war is MURDER. Mass murder! Jesus turned that whole concept upside down. Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished. Yet Christians are right at the head of the line to proclaim their right to own guns for protection. Do you think that God will then execute sinners in the end using physical might to get His way? Matthew 1:21 clearly states what Christ came to save us from. What do you think the Good News is? Is it that God will make things right by slaughtering all recalcitrant sinners? Is that how sinners die [and they do die] in the end?

Samie, you are confused on the timeline. The saints are on earth through the beginning of sorrows, which time we are now in; the little time of trouble, right upon us; and the great time of trouble such as never was, which commences at the close of probation (Rev. 22:11). Your appeal to Rev. 15 is misguided. Revelation is not read in this manner. In chapter 15 John saw the saints on the sea of glass and he also saw the angels preparing to pour out the vials. These are simply two things he saw, but the narrative does not address the issue of timing. We have to figure that part out from many other references. We know that the saints do not go to heaven until the second coming, the living righteous caught up together with the righteous dead, newly resurrected in the first resurrection. Sorry, but I thought I was talking to an Adventist.

It is not at all alike. It is not even apples and oranges. It is fish and mathematics! Humans have this bad habit to attempt to understand God and His ways through man and his ways. We would be safer to draw these sorts of comparisons if we were unfallen, but we are carnal. As such, the way we do justice and punishment is nothing like the way God does it. What you are trying to prove with your logic is to put blame on God. It is like saying that because He created Satan, the fallen angels, or any of the finally impenitent, in the first place, He was taking an active part in destroying them. In both cases, He is giving life. This is key. God always acts to Create, Heal, and Sustain. What the free moral agent does with these acts that are within His nature to perform is by their own choice and the results that come are allowed by God in accordance with love and freedom and these results are called "justice." God's strange act is when He ceases to act in those roles of Creator, Healer, and Sustainer. His mercy and love endures forever and He is never one to stop Being Who He is. However, there is one thing that trumps even His ever-enduring mercy and that is the choice of the free moral agent to forsake Him. Then He must forsake also. This is a strange act to Him. Destruction happens because of His forsaking, but His strange act is not the destruction. "God does not separate from his people, but his people separate themselves from God by their own course of action" (1888 1011.1). "God never forsakes people or individuals until they forsake Him" (12MR 321.2, Letter 55, 1886, written from Basel, Switzerland to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskell, Dec. 8, 1886).

Ha, Ha, I understood what you meant. I am greatly concerned about the lack of serious study and response to this problem by church leaders. The church is growing by more that a million a year, some parts of the world is growing much faster than other parts. So when they balance the books, more new members come in, than leave, which gives a net growth. For example, 1.3 million join the church and 1.1 million leave gives a net growth of 200,000 and they get excited. Church leaders should be ashamed that they can not stop or slow down the losses and then they church will really grow. In my opinion, the NAD is in real trouble, the NAD seems to be afraid to do a membership audit, as other divisions have done. I think an audit will reveal that many of the "absent members" who don't come to church, are actually done with the church, and did not inform anyone to remove them. The word "drop out" they use does not account for all the members who dropped out. Look at the report and the NAD claims a net growth of about 23,000 last year, but if they did an audit, I believe that it would show much more have left then they think and that the NAD is actually shrinking. If that is the true condition, than they should be much more concerned then they are about losing members.

JoeMo, you are one of a rare few to even think about getting disfellowshipped unfairly. The purpose of discipline is not punishment, but a reality check, that you are not right with God. So you are talking about an innocent person getting kicked out, and not being concerned. Here is a quote for this situation. "Jesus adds to the lesson these words: "Verily, I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." This assurance that after the rules of Christ have been followed to the letter the decisions of the church will be ratified in heaven,gives a solemn significance to the action of the church. No hasty steps should be taken to cut off names from the church books or to place a member under censure until the case has been investigated and the Bible rule fully obeyed. {15MR 194.1} The words of Christ show how necessary it is for church officers to be free from prejudice and selfish motives. Human minds and hearts, unless wholly sanctified, purified, and refined from partiality and prejudice, are liable to commit grave errors, to misjudge and deal unkindly and unjustly with souls that are the purchase of the blood of Christ. But the decision of an unjust judge will be of no account in the court of heaven. It will not make an innocent man guilty, nor change his character in the least before God. As surely as men in responsible positions become lifted up in their own esteem, and act as though they were to lord it over their brethren, they will render many decisions which Heaven cannot ratify. {15MR 194.2} If your church kicked you out unfairly, it is not ratified in heaven, and your name is still written in the Book of Life. I think this is what you mean and that you would remain outside the church with assurance that God still considers you a member. What if God also gave you gifts of wisdom and understanding, and he revealed to you errors in the church manual or working policy. You would need to restore your voice in the choice in order to bring about the reform that God has revealed to you. So I believe that in some situations, you should try to become a member again using the two paths described in Church Manual, page 67.

Being a member of the SDA denomination or not is immaterial to the state of one's relationship with Christ. Claiming that being an SDA in any way enhances one's citizenship in the Kingdom is equivalent to saying that since I am not a member of the Denver chapter of the Italian-American Club means that I'm not Italian. If I were to be disfellowshipped, it wouldn't concern me - I would still identify with SDA's; and I wouldn't be the least bit concerned over my standing in the Kingdom. That is not saying that, if the SDA denomination takes a compromising stand in the last days, that I would remain loyal.

The image of Christ crushing the serpent's head is an image meant to depict that the works of the devil will be destroyed and with them, the devil too. However, the picture is not saying that the power of might is used to do this. It is only the power of right that is employed. In any battle for truth, for ideals, you have to demonstrate the actual ideals of that proposition of truth. If the power of might was in question, then it could be used. The controversy is not about who can employ a greater power of might. If it were, then the standard view is justified, but how horribly so, for if that were the case then it would have been used at the start and it would have set up a state of tyranny in that it would have depicted a display of the ideals of the employment of force to ensure the continuance of governance which would only in a short time produce a sullen submission to that authority, having introduced weeds into the garden of love and loyalty based on heart appreciation, admiration, and philosophical agreement: "Satan’s representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. These murmurings and complaints were groundless. Yet God allowed Satan to work out his theories. He could have handled Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by this He would have given a precedent for the violence of human beings that is so abundantly shown in our world in the compelling principles. "The Lord’s principles are not of this order. All the compelling power is to be found under Satan’s government. God would not work in this line. He would not give the slightest encouragement for any human being to set himself up as God over another human being, and cause him mental or physical suffering. This principle is wholly of Satan’s creation" (CTr 13). How would God have "handled Satan and all his sympathizers?" By striking them down with force? No. He would do the same as in any case of wrath: give them over to their choice. But if He had gone fully over to judgment and execution of the sentence against transgression, He would have allowed them full separation from His power and they would have flashed out of existence. It would have looked like God did it. Satan had been plying them with a story that God was all about protecting His own authority and had imposed a law upon them to keep them in line (the implication is that He would use force to do so--how else?). So, if there would have been an assembly and a lot of talk that God's ways are the only right ways and Satan and his host refused to repent and they disappeared before the eyes of all, it would have introduced the element of deterrence into the Government of God, which has nothing to do with the heart. Deterrence seeks non-resistant compliant behaviour as its object, not heart loyalty. Such a governance becomes a rule of terror, a tyranny. "Those who enter the service of the institution with a spirit of unwillingness to help, who do their allotted tasks with a feeling of compulsion, in sullen submission, who act as if they would gladly escape from the drudgery of the necessary daily duties which someone must do, are very little help to the institution. A mechanical obedience may hide the smoldering fire of rebellion, but it is ready to break out at any time against restraint. In the service of such there is no peace or light or love. The atmosphere surrounding their souls is not fragrant. The influence of their words and actions is felt by others, and this influence is a harm even to those who are trying to do their best in any position in which they are placed. Self-pity is deteriorating to the characters of those who cherish it, and it exerts an influence that spoils the happiness of others. "He desires that we shall patiently and wisely take up the duties of service. . . . A sullen submission to the will of the Father will develop the character of a rebel. The service is looked upon by such a one in the light of drudgery. It is not rendered cheerfully and in the love of God. It is a mere mechanical performance. . . . Such service brings no peace or quietude to the soul" (TMK 120.4). "But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but he leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace, and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin, and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty" (GC88 36.2).

Amen. Your quote from ATJ is from a section that is packed with dynamite on this issue of the power of right (the power of love) against the power of might (the power of force). Here is another excerpt from sermon 22 (1895 series "The Third Angel's Message"): "We forsook the dominion and power of might as against right--the power of force, and have joined our allegiance to the power of right as against might--the power of love. And now the contest is between these two powers and concerning us. The contest is always between these spiritual powers. Whatever instruments may be employed in this world as the outward manifestation of that power, the contest is always between the two spiritual powers, Jesus Christ and the fallen prince" (March 3, 1895 ATJ, GCB 436.2). "And that power of right which He died in allegiance to has moved the world ever since, and it is to move the world in our day as it never has been moved before. Just as soon as God can get the people who are professedly pledged to the principle, to be pledged in heart to the principle and put the thought upon nothing at all and never expect to appeal to anything at all other than the absolute principle of the right and the power of it to which we are allied and to which we are pledged, then we shall see and the world shall see this power working as never before" (March 3, 1895 ATJ, GCB 438.3). “Jesus Christ is the Restorer. Satan, the apostate, is the destroyer. HERE is the conflict between the Prince of life and the prince of this world, the power of darkness” (CTr 247.2).