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Un-Blessed half-truth better describes it. More shameful to peddle half-truth as truth. Who has bewitched APL & Kevin into believing that God uses His rod only to guide His sheep as their Shepherd, but denies His use of His rod to discipline His children as their Father Who loves them? NKJ Proverbs 3:11-12 11 My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction; 12 For whom the LORD loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights. NKJ Proverbs 13:24 He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly. The one who bewitched the duo into believing half-truth as truth had likewise succeeded to bewitch them into believing that disciplining is bullying.

what bothers me with the presentation that God always just "turns his face" and lets sin take its course is that it seems so very heartless. I'll tell you, I seldom bother reading this thread anymore because it actually gives me nightmares. People (sinners) who were sinning and needed correction, but again and again and again and again God just turns away from them ("hides His face") and lets them suffer the consequences simply because He refused to dirty His hands by correcting/punishing the sinners to let them know they were sinning. How can people know they're sinning unless God gets their attention and corrects them? It's not cowardly or bullying by God to correct someone. But the "He-just-turns-His-face" business just sounds as if God is getting His jollies out of watching people sin, just so's He can turn His face, plug His ears with His fingers, and say, "nah, nah, nah, nah — I can't hear you!" If that's really how God is, then just forget it. That's a creepy, mean-spirited God, and one to whom I'd say, "just go away and leave me be. I'll take care of myself, as it certainly doesn't appear that *You* give a rat's patootie about me..."

Nobody was wearing ear protection. I wonder if they are all deaf already

I have understood it as narrow as single minded: Focused on wanting to come closer to Christ, to be with and near him, to love the world as he has loved it. I see the wide way as being so wide that you don't know what direction it is heading so you just head in what ever direction you feel like should be the right direction fighting against everyone else who have their own ideas as to what direction the road runs.

This is not a post about politics. If it goes political it will need to be moved by Admin, which would be a shame. As people here will know, I care passionately about the truth. But I wonder about that 'the'. Should I have said 'truths'? There seem to be different classes of truths, and the things that can be said about them seem to be different. It's true that my motorbike is a Kawasaki. I can verify that by walking down and looking at it. Most of those here, though, have to take my word for it. I can post a photo, but that might just be some random bike I found. I can post video of me riding it, but I might have hired (or stolen) it. Most don't know a lot about motorbikes: I could have stuck Kawasaki stickers on a Honda or Ducati. So it's a kind of truth that is verifiable, but only for those close enough to come and check for themselves. It's also a kind of truth that isn't particularly consequential: if I was fibbing it wouldn't make much difference to your life... except that you might trust me less if you found out. A water molecule contains one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms is also true, but much harder to verify directly. It requires some inference. If I electrolyse the water, for example, and get twice as much hydrogen gas as oxygen gas, that's a good hint, but style requires a lot of other assumptions. There might be other things that we hold as true but that are much harder to verify. Something like 'all people are created equal', for example. Is this a truth? Is there evidence for it? Or is it a human goal that we aspire to make true? Similarly for the axioms of mathematics: is '1 + 1 = 2' truth? How do we know and prove that? Isn't it just a set of rules that humans impose on the world? Truth is not the same thing as opinion. If we're both standing beside my motorbike, and your opinion is that it is a Ducati, your opinion is not a truth. For many kinds of truth, there is a true answer and one-or-many false answer(s). For other kinds of classes of truth, there might be a range of valid opinions and arguments. 'We should take another look at nuclear energy now that we better understand the costs of fossil fuels' is such a statement: I'm not sure we'd say our opinions on it are 'truth', but certainly, based on the way we 'weight' a number of different factors, there are a range of valid responses. The Bible has a lot to say about truth, including that the truth will make you free. (Not, as one newspaper typoed it, 'the truth shall make you fret', although sometimes it will do that too.) 'Whatsoever things are true... think on these things.' I don't want us to get caught in the position of asking Pilate's question 'what is truth?' Like him, when we do that it is likely to be because the truth is difficult or unpleasant. But I hope we can avoid being too simplistic too: to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; Wanderer - have you missed the point of REVELATION? What is the sharp sword? And WHOSE clothes were dipped in blood? Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, see, in the middle of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the middle of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Israel never need to fight and yet they did. Why? Because God wanted them to? No. God had His ways to clear the land, but Israel took matters into their own hands and fought. Israel had kings. Was that God's plan? Did God aid in choosing a king? Yes, but it was never God's plan that they have a king. He was to be their king. They rejected Him. 1 Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said to Samuel, Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you: for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1 Samuel 10:19 And you have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to him, No, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands. No, Israel's actions are rarely guiding lights for us or revealing God. God is seen in His dealings with His wayward people and He is good. Israel fighting in war is not a revelation of how we should act. Christ revealed the true character of God. Luke 6:27-29 But I say to you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which spitefully use you. 29 And to him that smites you on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that takes away your cloak forbid not to take your coat also. You want to know how to really get at your enemy? Romans 12:20-21 Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

One Scripture must not be used to destroy another. If we have apparently opposing Scriptures we have to harmonize them. So, if we have the statement "therefore he slew him," (1 Chron. 10:14) referring to God killing Saul, but we full well know that Saul killed Himself, because we have the story ("aetiological solution" is in vv. 3-4) we say that "He slew him" means He gave him over to the archers and to his own sword. But if we don't have an aetiological solution and if we don't have any indication of DR (in the phrases, "gave over," "hid His face," "gave up," etc.) such as in 2 Samuel 6:7, saying "God smote him," with reference to Uzzah. What warrant do we have to say these mean anything different? They don't. They are both DR. The principle of first mention gives us the key to hiding of face, which is the anger, or wrath of God, here: Deut. 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us? 31:18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. I can preach to you an entire discourse on Deut. 31 and the song which was to be sung to keep this principle ever in remembrance, (ch. 32) yet it is a principle that we have forgotten and worse than this, that we have denied, though Christ came to explicitly teach it and clear away the brain fog induced by Satan's suggestions from behind the language. "Through nature, through types and symbols, through patriarchs and prophets, God had spoken to the world. Lessons must be given to humanity in the language of humanity. The Messenger of the covenant must speak. His voice must be heard in His own temple. Christ must come to utter words which should be clearly and definitely understood. He, the author of truth, must separate truth from the chaff of man's utterance, which had made it of no effect. The principles of God's government and the plan of redemption must be clearly defined. The lessons of the Old Testament must be fully set before men." {DA 34.1} The way to read the language of God smiting is to harmonize it with the Bible definition of it. Then, we need not require any DR phraseology nor explicit narrative revealing causation in order for us to deem it "safe" to label any particular instance of Divine destruction as DR, or "passive wrath." We will no longer need the phrase "passive wrath," (God withdrawing His power to sustain and protect) because it will be understood there is no such thing as "active wrath"--God employing physical power to destroy. Note the chiastic structure in Isa. 57:17; it is instructive: A. For the iniquity of his covetousness B. was I wroth, C. and smote him: C'. I hid me, B'. and was wroth, A'. and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.

Do we see God's true character in Samson? Is the LORD a man of war? John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Gregory holds Israel up as if that is what we should look to when it comes to war. Did Israel fight? YES. Why? So terribly blinded had they become by transgression. The Lord had never commanded them to "go up and fight." It was not His purpose that they should gain the land by warfare, but by strict obedience to His commands. {PP 392.3} Israel never needed to take up arms. When they followed God's commands implicitly, they never lost a man in any conflict. Consider Jehoshaphat in 2 Chronicles 20. The history of Israel should really be a warning to us. Jeremiah 7:22-24 For I spoke not to your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well to you. 24 But they listened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. Hm - Israel went backward, not forward. Is all the wars of Israel, did they ever achieve the promise? No.

Alas...the mission is doomed before it is started! We can't prove what God does or doesn't do. We have very little of direct words from God, he spoke through humans who interpreted those words into a language that was understood by the listener. We have to look at the message of the total sum of all things, not bits and pieces without their context. To my way of thinking, to associate God in any way with punishment of any kind is simply humans trying to make God into their image/understanding of life. We can throw texts around till the cows come home, both sides of the issue, but what does it prove? It proves we don't really understand this God or the plan of salvation. Even Christs followers, who spent three years with Him failed to understand the person of Christ and what He stood for. Is our message to the world, God loves you but........or God loves you and want you to love others, period? It is our choice, each individual for their self, wether they choose life or death. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum with a path for both. They are natural opposites, a very simple choice. Lets not try to make God into our idea of a what earthly justice would be, He will not destroy us, we destroy ourselves. This side of heaven, it's still much of a mystery.

Yes, indeed- our fifth taste sense I am so glad someone is paying attention to it It's more than the sweet, bitter, salty or sour. It's... GOOD! For me, it's, yes, cheese, plus asparagus and fruit such as persimmon. Lemon brightens up so many cooked vegetables, but I really like anything to do with lemon- the aroma, the colour, too.

God knows the events that will come when we are prepared to experience them. When we receive the hatred and punishment of the worlds hatred for God, while loving them and only desiring for them to see Jesus and live.... we will have our Gethsemane experience and we will grow more fully into the likeness of Christ when we experience the likeness of his suffering. My dad would say to me, how do you know when Jesus is about to come? He would pause and let me think of all the signs of His return. Then he soberly said... when they want to kill you.

Wonderful. I went to read the entire article. Very instructive for us. I like the part here about the "limited degree." I have never seen this spelled out, but it is what I have been saying. Wrath is on a continuum. God stays in the picture as far as He is able, as long as He is able, in His role as Protector and Sustainer of all pertaining to life and blessings. The degree to which He is not in these roles is the degree of wrath under which we find ourselves. We are all under "limited wrath" even in the sense of our very mortality. Notice: Ps. 90:9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale [that is told]. 90:10 The days of our years [are] threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength [they be] fourscore years, yet [is] their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. The difficulties of life here, of sickness--it is wrath: Eccl. 5:16 And this also [is] a sore evil, [that] in all points as he came, so shall he go: and what profit hath he that hath laboured for the wind? 5:17 All his days also he eateth in darkness, and [he hath] much sorrow and wrath with his sickness. Back to this piece from Ms153-1902 (MR No. 1403) we see some other important details regarding wrath and destruction of LORD: The forces of destruction are not direct actions of God employing direct power to guide the forces to disruptive and destructive ends. When God is exerting power, it is to keep the forces functioning in a safe manner. John the Revelator represents the forces of the earth as four winds, which are held in check by angels delegated to do this work…. {19MR 279.1} From this vision we can learn why so many are preserved from calamity. If these winds were allowed to blow upon the earth, they would create havoc and desolation. But the world's intricate machinery is running under the Lord's supervision. Hurricanes, threatening to break forth, are held under control by the regulations of the One who is the Protector of the trembling ones that fear God and keep His commandments…. {19MR 279.2} God does not "make" these calamities occur; He permits calamities to occur. We find in other places that this happens as He gives way to wickedness, which is the choice of the free moral agent to push Him away. In this, He desires that the proper lesson be read into it. He is not releasing devastating forces arbitrarily, but giving up the wicked to their own choice of self and Satan over Him. He wants them to know that it is His power that blesses them and they really do need Him. Notice that "unusual workings" is the expression used to depict His act of giving nature over. God's normal role is to hold the forces in check and make them pleasant and beneficial. When He is not doing this it is "unusual." This is the same as saying it is "strange." This is what is meant by "strange act." It is not strange in the sense that He destroys proactively. It is strange in the sense that He does not keep on blessing, for "His mercy endureth for ever," as it is said repeatedly in the Bible. (In fact this is stated in the KJV 42 times. 7x6 = perfect and complete mercy toward man.) There is none to fear except ourselves. Only we can throw ourselves, soul and body into hell. Returning to the commentary on the following passage, note also that in the biblical expressions of His sovereignty over nature we see that He keeps the waters in check by His commandment. It also says that when "He touches" the hills they smoke. But we are not to read that "touching" as activating them to destruction. His "command" to them in destruction is the withdrawal of His power. When God commands anything that relates to destruction, it is Divine Recession. The "command" to holy angels to destroy is the issuance of orders for them to cease holding destructive forces in check, whether nature, men, or demons. Frequently we hear of earthquakes, of tempests and tornadoes, accompanied with thunder and lightning. Apparently these are capricious outbreaks of seemingly disorganized, unregulated forces. But God has a purpose in permitting these calamities to occur. They are one of His means of calling men and women to their senses. By unusual workings [this is the principle of “strange act”] through nature God will express to doubting human agencies that which He clearly reveals in His Word. He will answer the question, "Who hath gathered the wind in His fists?" He will reveal Himself as the One who "maketh the clouds His chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind." "He bringeth the wind out of His treasuries." "The Lord sitteth upon the flood; yea, the Lord sitteth King for ever." "He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment: when He appointed the foundations of the earth." "He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: He toucheth the hills, and they smoke." {19MR 279.3} Local disturbances in nature are permitted to take place as symbols of that which may be expected all over the world when the angels loose the four winds of the earth. The forces of nature are under the direction of an Eternal Agency. {19MR 280.1} Were God's "restraining Hand withdrawn," she says, "the enemy of our souls would at once begin the work of destruction that he has so long desired to accomplish" (19 MR 281.1). We see the same principle stated here: "If He lets go His hold of us for one moment, Satan stands ready to destroy. Those purchased by His blood, He now keeps by His intercession. He ever liveth to make intercession for us. 'Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them' [Hebrews 7:25]." {15MR 104.1} Finally, I see it very interesting that she just throws into her commentary a mention of the "magnificent buildings" that would soon be blotted out of existence. In another place she speaks of the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem as the work of angels throwing down the stones (again, this is Bible language--the angels gave over to the wrath of the human agents--the Roman army spun absolutely out of control, not even the commanding officers, Titus and the centurion Liberalis could stop them). In the same context she speaks of modern buildings. "Men will continue to erect expensive buildings, costing millions of money; special attention will be called to their architectural beauty, and the firmness and solidity with which they are constructed; but the Lord has instructed me that despite the unusual firmness and expensive display, these buildings will share the fate of the temple in Jerusalem. That magnificent structure fell. Angels of God were sent to do the work of destruction, so that one stone was not left one upon another that was not thrown down" (MS 35, 1906). I find an uncanny connection to the Twin Towers in NYC. From the section called "The Last Crisis" in vol. 9, p. 11, we read: On one occasion, when in New York City, I was in the night season called upon to behold buildings rising story after story toward heaven. These buildings were warranted to be fireproof, and they were erected to glorify their owners and builders. Higher and still higher these buildings rose, and in them the most costly material was used. Those to whom these buildings belonged were not asking themselves: "How can we best glorify God?" The Lord was not in their thoughts. {9T 12.1} I thought: "Oh, that those who are thus investing their means could see their course as God sees it! They are piling up magnificent buildings, but how foolish in the sight of the Ruler of the universe is their planning and devising. They are not studying with all the powers of heart and mind how they may glorify God. They have lost sight of this, the first duty of man." {9T 12.2} As these lofty buildings went up, the owners rejoiced with ambitious pride that they had money to use in gratifying self and provoking the envy of their neighbors. Much of the money that they thus invested had been obtained through exaction, through grinding down the poor. They forgot that in heaven an account of every business transaction is kept; every unjust deal, every fraudulent act, is there recorded. The time is coming when in their fraud and insolence men will reach a point that the Lord will not permit them to pass, and they will learn that there is a limit to the forbearance of Jehovah. {9T 12.3} The scene that next passed before me was an alarm of fire. Men looked at the lofty and supposedly fire-proof buildings and said: "They are perfectly safe." But these buildings were consumed as if made of pitch. The fire engines could do nothing to stay the destruction. The firemen were unable to operate the engines. {9T 13.1} I am instructed that when the Lord's time comes, should no change have taken place in the hearts of proud, ambitious human beings, men will find that the hand that had been strong to save will be strong to destroy. No earthly power can stay the hand of God. No material can be used in the erection of buildings that will preserve them from destruction when God's appointed time comes to send retribution on men for their disregard of His law and for their selfish ambition. {9T 13.2} In the biblical language, "angels of God were sent to do the work of destruction" so that one steel beam was not left in place that was not thrown down.

Is it narrow because it is hard, or is it narrow because it is single-minded?

Not to mention the health message. Bates had that down before there was an SDA church. He incorporated that into his sailing work before giving it up in favour of the Lord's employ.