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Samie, I know not whether taking time to respond here will be profitable. You may be fully entrenched in your opinion and unwilling to look at any other possible manner of interpretation. I will say this: I will not spend long debating on this. FIRSTLY Most of what you included in evidence above is true and correct. We differ simply in interpretations. Similarly, biologists look at the same evidence and come up with opposite conclusions regarding the origin of life. So as pertains to the evidence, I largely agree with you. As regards your conclusions, we differ. I will make an attempt at explaining how the evidence can be interpreted in another way, supported by some additional evidences. EVIDENCES REGARDING "SONS OF GOD" Adam was called "the son of God." He was said to be made in God's image and likeness. Seth was made in Adam's likeness, not God's, according to Genesis 5:3. John 1:12 tells us "as many as received Him to them gave He power to become the sons of God." The distinction of being a "son of God" is granted to those who are in the image of His character. The Bible would not call fallen angels "sons of God" and yet call the righteous by the same term. So, even if angels could copulate with humans and procreate, it could not have been the fallen ones who are called "sons of God." Jesus Himself refers to the Jewish leaders as being children of the devil, the father of lies, in contrast to their thinking that they were children of God. And again, if angels could copulate with mankind, it would be nonsense to reason that heavenly angels had corrupted men to the point of bringing upon themselves God's wrath. Where we may agree regarding some of your evidences above is that some of those "daughters of men" may have descended from Seth. Essentially, the term speaks of the worldly-minded, which largely were of the line of Cain in those days but I would make no attempt to limit it strictly to such as if I were there to know. Any godless woman would have been a "daughter of men." OTHER BIBLICAL EXAMPLES Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. (Job 1:6, KJV) Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. (Job 2:1, KJV) Clearly, Satan was not classed as a "son of God," for he gets express mention of being "also" among them. That distinction would have been unnecessary had he been one of them. Furthermore... When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:7, KJV) ...this text does not refer to demons. THE CLEAREST BIBLE DEFINITION For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14, KJV) ANYONE CAN BE But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12, KJV) That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; (Philippians 2:15, KJV) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. (1 John 3:1, KJV) REGARDING "GIANTS" This term is not related to race, nor stature. It is not related particularly to Cain, nor to Seth, nor does it refer to angels particularly. The Bible itself provides a definition for its usage of the word, using parallel speech (parallelism). There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. (Genesis 6:4, KJV) The three highlighted terms in the above are used in parallel. One way of thinking of them would be almost as "celebrities" in the sense of "stars." Gesenius alludes they are fallen, rebels, apostates. (See http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5303&t=KJV.) Consider also the parallels elsewhere: And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown: (Numbers 16:2, KJV) Obviously, those "men of renown" were "famous" and were apostate rebels, later consumed by fire from the Lord. The "giants" (rebels) of Noah's day all perished in the Flood on account of their crimes. MY CONCLUSIONS The "sons of God" are the righteous. The "giants," the "men of renown," are the worldly rebels who have made a name for themselves. The "daughters of men" are the unvirtuous women of the world. How do you know? We can only be certain of the fact that Noah and his sons had descended from Seth. We cannot know for sure whom the sons married.

I have understood it as narrow as single minded: Focused on wanting to come closer to Christ, to be with and near him, to love the world as he has loved it. I see the wide way as being so wide that you don't know what direction it is heading so you just head in what ever direction you feel like should be the right direction fighting against everyone else who have their own ideas as to what direction the road runs.

Evil has its roots in power, money, and women. Or Evil has its roots in power, money, and men. Why the one and not the other?

The SDA denomination is facing a call to unity that seemingly asks people to comply in detail to the provisions of the Church Manual and/or votes of the General Conference. Such does not allow for the work of the Holy Spirit to conduct the work of God in non-standard conditions and outside of a SDA congregational setting. The following article reports on a baptism conducted by a SDA pastor that violated certain of the norms that are proscribed in book of rules that SDA pastors are expected to follow. This article was published in the Rocky Mountain News Nuggets, edited by Rajmund Dabrawski. When the Holy Spirit Took Charge » It was nearly 8 p.m. the night three members of a Colorado prison ministry team arrived at Crowley County Correctional Facility to baptize an inmate. The candidate, Richard, had already waited two months. Yet, each time it was scheduled, something happened to prevent it. Once, it was so cold, the sprinkler pipes in the chapel froze and they couldn't fill the baptismal tank. Another time, Pastor Ted Williams arrived late and the prison officials wouldn’t allow the baptism to take place. Finally, on Friday, January 13, it was scheduled again and Richard, a graduate of the Discover Bible Course, waited eagerly. He’d already met with the pastor and considered the import of this step. This night, Pastor Ted left early to avoid heavy traffic. Joining the other two members of the ministry team at the prison, he prayed, asking for the Holy Spirit to take charge of the evening. But when the guard escorted them to the chapel, they discovered not only was it filled with Messianic Jewish brothers, but the baptismal tank was piled high with all kinds of material. After a brief discussion, the two groups agreed to hold a blended service. The watch commander came to say the chaplain was completely apologetic, but they’d have to reschedule. “We’ve already talked with the Messianic Jewish group,” explained Pastor Ted, “and they’d be happy to have a blended service and share in this baptism.” The Jewish clerk nodded his head in agreement. “That’s absolutely no problem,” the chaplain said, meaning it was okay to hold the blended service, “but it’s already 8 p.m. and services will be over at 8:30 p.m. It will take 30 minutes to fill the baptismal tank. “How would you feel about letting the Holy Spirit take care of this?” asked Pastor Ted. With a nod of approval, they headed back to the chapel. It was 8:07 p.m. and with everyone’s help, they moved the baptistry and measured the baptismal candidate to see how much water was needed. Within ten minutes, it was full enough for a baptism. The Messianic brothers and the Adventist brothers waited expectantly as Pastor Ted talked about the meaning of baptism. He told them that a party was getting ready to start in heaven. Several of the Messianic brothers prayed and Pastor Ted’s prayer followed. Then he baptized Richard. In the afterglow of the baptism, the Messianic group leader pointed to a man in his group. “This man,” he said, “has been wanting to be baptized for some time, but the chaplain won’t let him because he hasn’t declared a religion.” “I don’t know you,” said Pastor Ted, “but the Holy Spirit does. I now baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” and he submerged the second candidate. A third man came forward then saying, “I haven’t been in services for two months, but I hear the call. Will you baptize me?” So a third baptism took place and they praised God together. Then they prayed together. And the clock read 8:27 p.m. “Wonderful, amazing things happen,” says Pastor Ted, “things beyond our expectation, when we let the Holy Spirit take charge.” [Carol Bolden]

It is with sorrow, as I have resisted it for some time, but circumstances have convicted me that I should post about AdventiStan. Long time members of Club Adventist are probably aware that a Senior member of CA is the self-pronounced King of AdventiStan. He has not been bashful about telling us of such. I have not been a fan of that Kingdom. My issue, in part, has to do with the fact that the Kingdom of AdventiStan has banned all citizens form owning the noble fruit known as Durian. I hold durian in high favor and I cannot support any country that prohibits it. In fact, I find it to its shame that my country, the United States, bans the importation of fresh durian into the country. It will only allow frozen durian to be imported. I am hoping that Presiden Trump will do away with that ban and allow fresh durian to be imported. In fact, I look forward to the day when the commercial airlines will allow fresh durian to be taken into the passenger apartments of the aircraft by people who want to enjoy a snack of the noble fruit. Anyway, if you want to know more about this country, its King and other items about it, go to: http://adventistan.com/2012/03/

There is no Biblical suggestion that durian is not a gift from God as was the mango

On a personal note, AKA has given me something to think about, as to my dyslectic errors. Perhaps, and I just had not thought about it, that may be correct, or rather an aspect. The following are issues that I have had to consider, some of which have been long time aspects of who I am. Others are more recent in origin. * I have always been a poor speller. * I have not ben great in typing and I consider my ability to type to have decreased over recent time. * In my advanced age (76) I clearly have decreased vision. Thankfully my vision, while decreased, is remaining stable. But I have regular clinical evaluation to see what is happening. In any case, my brain generally blocks the visual field from one of my eyes and I see with one eye, as one eye distorts my vision. * I have had surgery on the inside of one of my eyes on the retina in the back. The experience of having an electric light and surgical instruments enter the inside of one of my eyeballs and do surgery on the retina was an interesting experience which probably few of you have had. * Anyway, the result of all of this is that I sometimes write something that can only be described as dumb and I do not catch it for a while.

Durian: I learned to like it when I lived in Panama. There is even a place in Modesto, California, that serves Durian milkshakes. They are good. San Francisco has durian ice cream for sale. And, it has durian that was imported into the U.S. in a frozen state, then sold in SF as if just picked off of a tree. Some years ago on a visit to California form Colorado, I purchased a durian and presented it for consumption at a meal served in the home of my ex-wife and my oldest son. It was served then. However, on successive visits we were informed that future gifts of durian would not be welcomed! And, on that visit we were directed to take with us the durian that had not been eaten. Well, so much for people who do not appreciate that noble fruit. They are missing an experience. The experience of human life should cause people to be willing to break out beyond the boundaries of the trite normal and expected. By the way, who knows, perhaps durian was the fruit that Eve ate in Eden and is now a gift for us to also eat? Perhaps she did not actually eat an apple, or a mango?

I love satire and at the same time I can be very gullible. Though I do not want to take anything away from this and spoil the fun and apparent history of this place for those who are in the know... I must say something about Durian fruit cause i watch cooking shows for fun( my mom didnt know how to cook) and education. Durian stinks! So it is reported on tv shows. So since I am out of the loop about AdventiStan..i wonder if the fruit is symbolic. Or it must be really goooood once you get past the smell.

I'm smiling because we are dealing with imagination unrestricted by reality. Equally along the lines of Adventist literature like in 'Barely Adventist'. I'm smiling because of recognizing that we do not have here the writing style of Gregory in the above post. After counting 7 dyslectic grammatical errors we could pin-point where the post probably stemmed from. The female of my being has used decades in analyzing what makes men tick. One conclusion I came to was how very sensitively complex the needs of a male ego really are. Being top of the pile waving a flag of achievement gives a much sort after notoriety. Power is the key element in kingly positions. Those men who lead in preeminent positions of various branches in business, politics, Church communities or otherwise need dignity of personal power. Personally, I do hurt for any leader getting lambasted with critic of half-truths because they need loads of energy and determination to continue trying to achieve something. What helps the stresses of hard unmerciful human interaction is to have a cave to go in of personally made fantasy for venting off the burden of leadership. Well, I'm looking forward to the day when import of Durian is legalized. Then the best prank of the year is a pupil bringing one into the classroom for inspection, experience and uproar. The ensuing chaos of emotions would tickle my funny bone if I was present.

Between the testing, serious Bible study (which means more than reviewing the key texts for our traditions but taking advantage of learning the history and culture and things that the linguists teach us) increases the objective knowledge of God. If we have a relationship with him, this knowledge can deepen our love for him and the changes naturally take place. But too often we study the Bible for ammunition for our side and when we do this it mostly feeds our sinful nature, and yes, it is the Bible so it does not only feed our sinful nature, but if we read it as a student, willing to follow where it leads us, then there is our subjective response which balances out the theories about Justification and Sanctification. Justification is to have an open heart for the evidence and Sanctification is the result on our hearts.

It has already won three awards in Australia's equivalent to the Oscar award, when it got six nominations for Golden Globe, the theater near me brought it back for more shows God is in control, the timing of this movie is proof of that. I believe it will win at least one Oscar Mario

Never had a problem with usernames before...still don't! I say go with whatever you're comfortable with. Live and let live!

Some of this guy's criticisms are completely out to lunch. Saying that Isaiah 28:10 shouldn't be used as a reference to how to study the Bible is ridiculous. The text is speaking about how God is going to teach His people for the context of the verse is verses 9-13 and then addresses the corrupt leaders and priests by saying, wherefore.... Wherefore refers back to how God is going to wean His people away from the corrupt teaching and religious worship then going on. He's going to teach them precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little. God uses this method to teach us, so to say it is not the way for us to study is out to lunch.

less than 2 minutes long

I think proof-texting, especially in forum discussions where you can't possibly write an essay in one post and then hope your post to be read, can be resorted to ONLY after one has proven his position in harmony with the totality of Scriptures.

Moderator's Note: I participate in and encourage robust discussion. However, I believe that such can occur without attributing mal intent to another persons motives. I have not acted in this respect due to the fact that More than one person has approached this line and if I were to act, in fairness I would have to deal with more than one person. So, please, everyone, take my advise not to deal with others motives.

I think it is narrow because only Jesus can walk through that way, and when we are depending on Jesus and following in His steps we are empowered to get through. It is a scriptural promise that anyone who comes to Jesus he accepts, and in Jesus time of the population very few came to him. He received each one fully. And the work in their heart was just beginning. we can only come at His invitation and he opens the door. He would never invite and draw someone and then shut the door when they show up. But few respond to that invitation. In the beatitudes every group described and blessed was empowered to get through the narrow way. Like the monkey with it's fist in the jar, it is a trap, it cannot remove it's hand till it lets go of the goody it is holding onto.

God knows the events that will come when we are prepared to experience them. When we receive the hatred and punishment of the worlds hatred for God, while loving them and only desiring for them to see Jesus and live.... we will have our Gethsemane experience and we will grow more fully into the likeness of Christ when we experience the likeness of his suffering. My dad would say to me, how do you know when Jesus is about to come? He would pause and let me think of all the signs of His return. Then he soberly said... when they want to kill you.

On a personal basis, I support "capital punishment." I also think that it is Biblical, but not required. I agree that capital punishment probably does not serve to reduce crime. I do believe that society has a right to determine that there are some circumstances under which a person has given up their right to live and in those circumstances society has a right that does not violate Biblical standards to end that persons life. As many here know, I have a son who is a correctional officer at a major prison. He would agree, at least in part, with the implication that Green has made that prisoners may be pampered, at least in some aspects. I, probably do not fully agree with Green's view of pampering. I will also say that such as Green lists, to the extent that they are provided, and they are NOT unrestricted, have been found to be cost-effective. They serve to cut down on prison riots which are a safety mechanism for both correctional officers and other prisoners. On another aspect: The justice system in the U.S. may be much better than it is in some other countries. But, it clearly is not perfect. People are unjustly convicted. This is one of the reasons why I would not want to use capital punishment widely. As to cost: In the U.S. it generally is extremely expensive to sentence a person to death and to then execute that person. I once lived in an areas where in a local area it cost far more to convict and execute than it did to keep a person in prison for life. In that area, the starting cost just to convict was general over one million dollars. Keep in mind that once convicted it can take eight (8) to ten (10) years to go through the appeals process and execute. This cost could exceed a million dollars. Folks, from the economic standpoint, it may be ultimately less costly to give a person life in prison than it is to execute. Probably, Green will retort that we need to change the justice system. O.K. But, until that it done, we have to live within our present system.

APL, You incorrectly apply that statement beyond the contextual boundaries in which Mrs. White included it. She addresses probationary time, not such post-probationary events as the plagues, nor hell fire. Furthermore, she refers to character when she says that God will destroy no one. How do we know? Because there are Bible verses that tell us both that God did destroy and that He will destroy, and Mrs. White asks the poignant question "Who will say that He will not do what He says He will do?" Jesus applied it to the "body" when speaking of hell in Matthew 18:8-9. For those who perished in Sodom and Gomorrha, and for the antediluvians, their probation had closed, and as Jude tells us, they were made examples for us of what will happen with all the wicked in the end.

From my understanding Adventism has always been divided. Even when looking at the preamble to our early beliefs list it appears to be talking about what we tend to have in common so that people know that they can join us and not believe exactly like brother so and so who holds these beliefs as well as his own understanding of scripture. In our good times we learn how to play together; allow sharing and people listening and deciding if what is being taught is useful to them or to agree to disagree. In our bad times one of our sub groups thinks that they should be the only true form of Adventism and force their views on the rest of us.