Leaderboard

I do not foresee anything that would drive me away from God's remnant church. I was sharing with a fruend in a 12-Step group that I am an Aventist. He shared that a friend of his visitted the Adventist church and liked it. The next week was potluck and she was asked to bring a vegetarian plate so she did. However at potluck one of the members talked down to her saying she wouldn't eat the dish because it had cheese. So she left and never went back. i confessed to my friend that sounded like something that could happen because there is a small minority of self-rigteous folks in every church. Before I could finish the story, my friend agreed and commented that self-righteous folks are not just limmited to the Adventist churches. I went on to tell him of a Mexican family that visitted a church in Minnesota where I attended college. When they brought chicken to potluck, our pastor sat at their table and ate their chicken with them. The self-righteous folks were ready to hang the pastor for hearosy.

**off topic** It's a shame people feel the need to condemn others on the type of humor that amuses them. Having worked weekends and nights in the Emergency Room of a medical center, my sense of humor might be warped in the view of some. (Anyone who has worked in that area for such a length of time and says their humor can't be seen as being sometimes "twisted" probably isn't telling the whole truth.) I've seen some pretty horrifying things. It's only through the use of "dark humor" that people are able to manage. The "GomerBlog" is a rich source of humor for medical professionals, that would most likely be seen as insulting and offensive by those who haven't been in the saddle. **back to topic**

My son, a middle-aged physician, attended TOP's meetings in San Diego with his family. He felt enriched spiritually by the entire weekend.

No, you can not mention that.

darest I mention I enjoyed the satire in the article?!

I just mean watched over by God. There are many in churches other than the SDA that love God and Jesus and will come into the SDA church at the time of the shaking when many SDAs leave the church. I run into many people all the time who love God very much and will make their decisions when the Sabbath issue comes to national debate. This can be read about in the Great Controversy.

? I would address the matter differently. Rather than run from the problem, face it and address it. Ask to see the pastor first. Share with him what happened. Ask him if you may present the matter to the church board. The church needs to know and to deal with the situation, and one member should not ruin church attendance for you when other members likely welcome you and would miss you if you leave. Let the church board investigate and deal with the individual and/or instruct the church membership at large in how to be hospitable and Christlike. It is the duty of the church to do this. If the pastor and/or church board is unwilling to address it, write a letter to the ministerial secretary of the conference and inform him of the situation. Something will happen. Jesus never once cast someone out for their apparel--not even naked people. The righteousness of Christ is to be our spiritual apparel, and clearly some in the church do not have it. This should be a concern of top priority for them, lest they lose their own salvation--like Jesus said to the Jewish leaders of His day: "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Matthew 23:13)

The Wanderers quote related to W. G. Johnsson, might be misunderstood by some. Here is the important part from that quote:

I'd be honored to. Isaiah 14,24 The LORD Almighty has sworn, “Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, AND as I have purposed, so it will happen Ephesians 1,9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he PURPOSED in Christ 2 Timothy 1,8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the GOSPEL according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, WHICH WAS GIVEN US in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel Zeph 3,5 The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will NOT do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame Vs. Signs of the Time April 2, 1940 It is VITAL for every Christian to know that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."

Israel requires women to serve. I've always thought that all who live in the U.S. should serve there country!

there seems to be a special nobleness in that generation that I am not seeing in my generation. Even so, Come Lord Jesus, come

I have been privileged to meet Herbert Blomstedt many times, along with his lovely wife, who traveled with him. He had been a classmate in graduate school in California with one of my music-teacher colleagues and friends, and he stayed at her home whenever he came to L.A. to conduct. After his wife died, however (and her husband had also recently died), they had dinner together when he was in town but he did not stay at her house. I also attended one of his rehearsals of the L.A.Philharmonic. He was amazing; he conducted the entire symphony from memory. Then, following the run-through, he would open his score, turn a few pages, call out to the musicians several locations in which he wanted them to play the passage differently -- all without ever having referred to the music score while they were playing it. He was a very polite, gentlemanly person. Completely sophisticated yet gentle in his actions. A wonderful example of a fine Adventist man.

Yes - Satan would retain dominion of this earth. But it would do him no good. The earth is dying and Satan has no power to bring it back to life. Satan - if he retained dominion of earth - would be left with a DEAD PLANET. Not much of a victory.

And that is the point. All will be evaluated by the same standards. Those who pass the standard will have the freedom to chose.

Belle: Some of those who study Adventism tell us that there are five (5) different groups of SDAs as to doctrine and life style. the interesting thing is that those who tell us such do not all agree on the composition of those various groups. In any case, the boundaries of those groups are not determined by either the age of their members, or by their theological training. So, all of those groups have both clergy and members. Here in Club Adventist we have members who are not SDAs as well as those who represent a variety of positions within Adventism.

Thank you all for your response. I live in Kelowna, BC. Canada. We have about 5 churches here. I've been to all of them. There is a very large retirement community in Kelowna. It is a lovely place to retire, so the majority of Adventists here are elderly. Still, I found the legalistic attitude to even be in the pastors, and they were not old. However, I don't wish to say only bad things about the church. I know by reading Adventist magazines that there are many Adventist organizations that help the poor and do a lot of good. There are many wonderful preachers, Ty Gibson comes to mind and his Lighthouse organization. Of course ADRA is wonderful. I love the thought by Gayatfootofcross, that "...something beautiful will come forth," after the shaking.

To say on the one hand that Ellen White was used as a messenger from God and on the other hand that she did not have any authority is to diminish and negate that importance, value and authority of the message that she brings. If Ellen White was used by God as a messenger, she had authority over all who were to be subject to that message. If both males and females were to be subject to that message then she had authority over both males and females. Yes, her authority was a derived authority. Her authority was not inherent in herself. It was derived from the claim that God had selected her to be His messenger. If God could select her, God could remove her. She functioned only as long as God desired her to function. This is the same as we see in the political world today. The Chief of Staff for the U.S. President has real authority, but only as long as the President has that person as Chief of Staff. A Cabinet Secretary has real power and authority, but only as long as the President and Congress agree that the person so selected shall continue to remain in that position. Either Congress of the President can remove that person from the position. The U.S. President has real power, but again it is derived authority. The President's authority is derived from an election by the voters and remains only while so elected and not impeached. So, also the authority of a messenger of God is real and powerful, but only as long as God agrees. To say otherwise is to diminish what God has established. NOTE: Now if you do not believe that God established Ellen White as a messenger/prophet, then that is another issue.

I am sorry for the pain that you have experienced at the hands of Adventism. I wish that I had a magic wand and could wave it and make it right, but I can not. I have no idea as to where you live. In some places, there is only one SDA congregation to which one can attend. In other places there may be many. Congregations have personalities, so to speak. Whether or not there is a nearby congregation to which you could receive spiritual nurture, I Do not know. I can only say: May God bless and lead you in you spiritual journey. Yes, there are some congregations to which I would not take some visitors.

Hi Belle! Nice to meet you! There is a growing movement that you are a part of I see emerging. I myself growing up SDA (more or less) church witnessed my tiny rural conservative church do what you described ad naseum. We were right in the middle of independent ministries and self supporting lil companies of people here and there. I heard it all and saw it all. People either confronting others are talking about others. What was worn at church. What they ate at church. What was in their grocery carts in the small town stores. I thought that was Christianity! I became just like them. And boy was I in trouble thinking that is how god is toward me as well UGH!. There was no safe place. He was no safe place. You cant invite others to this and expect them to be happy ..much less Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee. You mention the shaking. Yes yes! I believe the Church will fall. Fall hard and fall big and something beautiful will come forth. A Remnant who's focus will not be on my failings or others but on Jesus and His Love for us. And His Love on others. To look upon each person as Jesus Himself no matter who or what they are! The dos and don'ts will not be on anyone's mind or breath .. but only two of the Highest Standards will drive this Remnant. Sealed that God is in absolute head over heels in love with you and everyone else. This people (church) will be a Safe Place for you to bring others into the Fold before Jesus comes to take us Home. So happy to meet you here

I left the Adventist Church because of legalism, unkindness, and constant criticism of its members. The last day I went to my regular church, the old guard were berating another teenager about the song she sang and using a guitar. This was around 20 years ago. I much prefer to worship God in my own way in my own home with my family. My husband had quit going a year before me because when he had cancer and was in the hospital, some Adventist couples came to visit him and told him he got cancer because he ate meat and he was going to hell. That was just the last straw for him. I could write a book on the meanness of Seventh-Day-Adventists. When I decided I couldn't in good conscience bring a visitor to my church, that was the day I said to myself, "What am I doing here?" What the church needs is love, love, love. Mrs. White says the church will be good when thousands leave in the shaking and thousands from outside come in. That will be a good day.

a shut-down of communication has happened a lot on the forum.... sometimes with spammers, sometimes with legitimate members. I'm guilty of it. Bonnie is guilty of it. Others on the forum are guilty of it. Shutting down communication defeats the purpose of the forum.... but communication is *not* a discourse on issues, ending up with "I'm right, you're wrong." Nor is it telling an admin how to run the ship. Nor is it continually pointing out the sins of others. Nor is it the pervasive copy and paste type of posts that spammers are prone to give. There are some who come on the forum with their tomahawks and warbonnets, ready to battle with any who don't see things their way. That's not communication, and not putting up with that type of thing isn't shutting down communication, in my book. Others, I'm sure, see it differently.

Just FYI: I had no ulterior motives in starting this thread. Nobody specific even came to mind when I read the article in the first place. I just thought it was an interesting perspective, and one that I hadn't thought of previously, and I *thought* maybe others here on the forum might find it interesting, as well.

In an earlier post The Wanderer cited a statement of mine to the effect that a post of mine had suggested a lack of trust in God, and then responded in the quote below: If you had said that I have no way of knowing whether or not Green trusts God, you would be correct. But, I did not say such. What I said was that Green's post suggest such. There is a difference and that difference is important. People, to include me, may make statements that do not clearly present what the author intended to present. I have certainly had people bring such statements that I made to my attention. To be clear: I am not suggesting that Green lacks trust in God, although I suspect that there are times when all of us, to include me do fail to fully trust God. But, I stand by my comment that Green's statement suggested a lack of trust in God.

Earlier Green posted, related to the One Project, see below: Scripture teaches accountability. It does not teach that either God's messengers or the ":watchmen on the wall" should hide their identity. I have a problem with some one who infers that TOP is an abomination that will cost the souls of many and refuses to take responsibility and accountability for such by hiding his name under a penname. I do not think that this is what God would want. I do believe that if God want such a message proclaimed about TOP God would be able to protect the messenger who faithfully proclaimed what God wanted proclaimed. Such suggests to me a lack of trust in God and that the messenger is not proclaiming what God would want said.

Green posted in the quote below: 1) I note that you (Green) did not say that you obtained you knowledge from personal observation. I would like to know the source of your knowledge. IS it based largely upon 2nd and 3rd hand sources? Have you personally contacted any of the founders? Have your ever read the book they published, which tells about its founding, goals and ministry? 2) Have you ever spoken personally to a founder about your concerns? 3) Are you willing to contact SAM Leonor and dialogue with him? I have posted above a contact number for you to do so. NOTE: Here is a work e-mail address for Sam Leonor: sleonor@lasierra.edu

Great news, Gregory! I welcome an inclusive ministry that puts Jesus first. I will continue to pray for the movement. Why sigh and cry about a ministry who wants to make their relationship with Jesus the highest priority in their lives; and wants to bring that mind set to those inside and outside the denomination? What's more important - your relationship with God or your relationship with the man-made construct of a denomination? What will save more people - bringing them into a personal relationship with Jesus or servitude to a denomination. If you believe in the influence of God's Spirit, don't you believe that the Spirit can lead people to the church once they have established a sound relationship with Jesus? Be careful what you condemn. When the Pharisees accused Juesus of casting out demons in the name of the devil, Jesus responded: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matt. 12:30-32) Gamaliel, the teacher of Paul the Apostle said: "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” (Acts 5:38-39). Although I am no Jewish or Christian scholar, I think this sound biblical advice applies to all of us who think we are right and others are wrong. Let God sort it out. Take care of the details of your own salvation; the rest of us will take care of ours. Who are you to judge what is or isn't an "abomination?

Sojourner, the incident that seemed to have caused her desire to no longer attend the church was likely only "the straw that broke the camel's back". Take it to the Lord in prayer; take your wife and children with you! Ask her questions about her own spiritual journey and listen to her answers. Walk in harmony with her and find out what it is she needs. Be a leader; not only a defender. Be a provider; but also be her help meet. This was not about church--it was about your relationship with your wife. 10An excellent wife, who can find? For her worth is far above jewels. 11The heart of her husband trusts in her, And he will have no lack of gain. 12She does him good and not evil All the days of her life. 13She looks for wool and flax And works with her hands in delight. 14She is like merchant ships; She brings her food from afar. 15She rises also while it is still night And gives food to her household And portions to her maidens. 16She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard. 17She girds herself with strength And makes her arms strong. 18She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night. 19She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hands grasp the spindle. 20She extends her hand to the poor, And she stretches out her hands to the needy. 21She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet. 22She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple. 23Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land. 24She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies belts to the tradesmen. 25Strength and dignity are her clothing, And she smiles at the future. 26She opens her mouth in wisdom, And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. 27She looks well to the ways of her household, And does not eat the bread of idleness. 28Her children rise up and bless her; Her husband also, and he praises her, saying: 29“Many daughters have done nobly, But you excel them all.” 30Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised. 31Give her the product of her hands, And let her works praise her in the gates.

"....only by grace do we rise above personally insulting offenses. " I appreciate you sharing this truth, Debby. It's personally a big part of my spiritual experiences.

Yeah. Those who just can't wait to "do the right thing" ... That guy should've kept his apology to himself, as well. What a bozo.

only by grace do we rise above personally insulting offenses. i would suggest this pastor needs to present messages on the harm of being judgmental of visitors to the church, and i would inform the pastor of this event. then i would deeply apologize to my spouse and possibly arrange for the pastor to apologize on behalf of the well meaning but insulting member. this is not good when members are hurtful to those coming to church. facetiously my thought is... i would like to see thirty visitors crowd this church Sabbath morning in jeans... give this member a work out then crash his program by letting him see how much God loves them and is so happy they came to visit at His house. We all need to be stretched, God's love is greater than we know.

Sojourner, I am really sorry that this happened to your wife. My advice is to first take it to God in a lot of prayer. What I mean by that is keep on praying about it every day. Do not just give it a one time shot and if you do not see results from one prayer stop praying about it. Tell God exactly how you feel about the pain your wife feels and the anger you feel. Be completely real with Him. Then ask Him to work this out with all parties concerned, including yourself. After you have been praying about it for a week or so then start to act on it yourself. I would not go first to the pastor or the church board. If you can remember who was doing the greeting ask around for who made the remarks to your wife and then go to them and ask why. That is the Biblical way to go about things. Take it up with the individual first. If that does no good take it to the head elder and have him help. Then take it to the entire church if working with an elder fails. Follow the way God told us to work through things and God will honor your needs and requests for help.

There is some value is what Green said. I suspect that many women would not want to return to such a congregation. My real mission would be to do the best for my wife, if I was in that situation. I would likely consider that the best for her would be to get her into another congregation if possible. That would be my mission, not to fix the congregation. If I were able to get my wife into another congregation, I would then consider what Green has suggested, as long as I thought that I could accomplish that without spiritual harm to my wife. However, in addressing the local congregation, I would attempt to work through the local pastor, with that pastor taking the lead, rather than going over the head of the pastor and directly to the Church Board. Right or wrong, the local pastor commonly has great influence over the Church Board. I would want to have the pastor working with me. In military terms, winning a battle may result in losing the war. All to often we can get ourselves into situations where we defeat our fundamental mission by doing that. I would carefully consider whether or not to take such an issue to the ministerial secretary. It might be the thing to do. And, it might not be? In any case, Green has added value to the conversation.