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It truly amazes me that as SDA do not see the times we are living in. Two things have been suggested that might be the major problem in the church. Well we, like both the Kanaanites and Israel of old rejected been chosen. Oh so many of do not even realize that Kanaanites was chosen first. Gen 15:16 They had the only High Priest of THE MOST HIGH, who already had Jerusalem. David extended it! If there is a High Priest, there is a Sanctuary, is just was not mention, it didn't need too if we realize the facts! Why is so hard to believe that YAHWEH choose the Kanaanites, why would HE want all of these people destroyed if they did not know HIM? They and the Egyptians knew HIM but HE call the Kanaanites, because they were prophesied by Noah what would happen to them if they rebell. They did and the curse came into effect. However, the Bible shows clearly that many were righteous, those Amorites who assisted Abraham from the time he came to the land of the Kanaanites. Gen Chapter 20 Sodom and Gomorrah were warned when they were captured and taken away. They had to know truth because Abraham asked to spare them if any righteous people were found. They became even worst so YAHWEH brought down Everlasting Fire and the Bible say it was example for us in the latter days. Jude 1:7 The second reason is because they were Black and YAHWEH knows everything even the bigotry of men today! Israel, had to be given the truth all over again because they had forgot. The Levitical system was created, it not in the order like Melchizedek who was the first born. All ancient people believe in this symbolical belief. Why, because the first born represented YAHSHUA and even though they went astray they kept this belief! The seventy elders of Israel was supposed to be the priesthood but they went astray after seeing YAHSHUA with their own eyes and did not die! Ex 24:9-11. It was given to the Levites because of their loyalty. Israel too. was warned that even more curses would be poured out on them! Why? Because, they were given more details of YAHWEH'S Laws, Commandments, Judgments and Statues. They also were given YAHWEH'S Holy Convocation days which included the weekly Sabbath. These days were not nailed to the cross and even EGW stated that (I am not talking about the passover it was not a day, but a supper. YAHSHUA'S Supper was instituted in it place on the evening that begin the first of YAHWEH'S Holy Convocation day)! Precepts Given to Guard Decalogue. The Signs of the Times, April 15, 1875 Our problem with EGW, we do not listen when said take the Bible, first. Kanaanite were given 430 years and Israel was given 490 years. When they themselves said: Let his blood be on us and our children, the sealed their fate. The Hebrews do not exist anymore as the Bible claim it would happen. You cannot find their DNA all those say their are Israel or Hebrew how can they be, they cannot find Hebrew DNA. The Israelis are not Hebrew, but follow the prophecy of Noah. Gen 9:37 Jepheth dwells today in all the tents of Shem!!! The problem with both of these chosen nations is even more noticeable today in the SDA church! The one problem, not woman being ordain, but we have return to pagan roots that the Catholic Church has upgraded! We have completely ignore Ex 20:2-4 and we can't and don't keep 8-11: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of ELOHIYM, and have the testimony of YAHSHUA MESSIAH. Rev 12:17 And Elohiym said to Moses, EHYAH ASHER EHYAH (I AM THAT I AM); and He said, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, EHYAH (I AM) has sent me to you. And Elohiym said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, YAHWEH, the Elohe of your fathers, the Elohe of Abraham, the Elohe of Isaac, and the Elohe of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is how I should be rremembered from generation to generation. Ex 3:14,15 You shall have no other mighty ones against My face. You do not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of that which is in the heavens above, or which is in the earth beneath, or which is in the waters under the earth, you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am YAHWEH your ELOHIYM, a Zealous El, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me; and doing kindness to thousands, to those loving Me, and to those keeping My commandments. Do not misuse my name. I am YAHWEH your ELOHIYM, and I will punish anyone who misuses my name. Ex 20:3-7 And in all that I have said to you take heed. And make no mention of the name of other mighty ones, let it not be heard from your mouth. Ex 23:13 To the Law and to the Testimony! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because there is no light to them! Isa 8:20 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof. Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain. And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing false things, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith YAHWEH ELOHIYM, when YAHWEH hath not spoken. Eze 22:25-27 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the YAHWEH of Hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart. Mal 2:2 For I am YAHWEH, I do not change. Because of this, you sons of Jacob are not destroyed. Mal 3:6 For I testify together with everyone hearing the Words of the prophecy of this Book, if anyone adds to these things, YAHWEH will add upon him the plagues having been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, YAHWEH will take away his part from the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and of the things having been written in this Book. Rev 22:18, 19 How can we keep the Sabbath, which was made Holy, when we do not keep and recognize, THE FATHER'S TRUE, HOLY, RIGHTEOUS NAME. Both Kanaan and the Children of Israel dishonored HIS NAME! Prov 30:3-4 ask a simple question, what is HIS NAME and what is HIS SON'S NAME! Why would YAHSHUA said this: I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43 YAHSHUA answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. John 10:25 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. John 17:6 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Mat 6:9 Every since I have been in this church I have always questioned the name god! Since, I realize we should not be calling THE HOLY SPIRIT a ghost! I ask you why do we do this, you know ghost do not exist or do you? Every religion on this earth use the name god, where did it come from? Word Origin traces it back to Satan! All encyclopedias said that when use the word it to to invoke or conjure up. Even the Catholic encyclopedia states this and has the nerved to say that is what we should do is to invoke god!!!!! Jesus is not in the NAME of YAHWEH, the J was not in ancient time it was a Y and the Latin used the I. YAHWEH is a actual transliterated word, which means it is the same pronunciation in all languages! I know since the SACRED NAME Movement started all these different sound started popping up! YAHu or YAHwa and so on and so on. But here is the facts many are not of aware that all languages that were confounded by ELOHIYM have vowel sounds! Lot of these new so call scholar, preacher, so call religious leader do not know linguistic. Many come on the scene without studying ancient history and they truly do not understand the evidence that Ebla and Paleo History has brought to light! You just can't go off on something without doing major research. If something has been covered up like a lie, it is just like an archaeological dig! There is not one lie but several and you have to slowly meticulously with prayer and THE HOLY SPIRIT leading you to uncover the truth! The letters aleph, yodh and waw represented both vowels and consonants. It is Satan that want man to complete forget HIS NAME! By doing this we forget also the Sabbath. YOU CAN NOT KEEP IT HOLY if YOU DON'T REVERENCE HIS NAME! When you break and use HIS NAME falsely did all of the other problems of sin becomes overwhelming and then we are subjugated to Satan as slaves! I know many will reject what I have written, but it is my hope that those who are wise will awaken. We once were a peculiar people, we are not anymore. We have compromise in more ways then I can count! Come out of her my people is the cry, be not like the world. The use these unholy and profane name in cursing, merry making and more! We have invoke and conjure up Satan and he has deceived the whole world, including the SDA church!

I attended my first full-blown Pesach celebration last night at a Messianic Jewish church with 500 other people - complete with rabbis, lamb, bitter herbs (HOT horseradish and parsley), singing in Hebrew, multiple blessings, shofars, and 4 glasses on grape juice or Manechevitz (nasty wine). I was the only male at our table, so I had to be the host. I didn't have a clue what I was doing; but the Jewish women at the table were good mentors. Had a blast! Even imagined that I was sorta getting the hang of the Hebrew songs towards the end of the 3-hour dinner/ceremony.

In the post-Christian in which many live, they may begin their spiritual journey to God by way of an imperfect means. That is O.K. as the Holy Spirit can use a small element of truth as a starting point at which their journey begins. By the way, that can happen to SDAs and has likely been the story of some of us here in Club Adventist. As an example, a number of years ago there was a Play, "Jesus Christ Superstar." It was certainly defective in some of its theology. Yet, it became the starting point for some to begin a journey that took them into traditional Christianity to include the SDA Church. We should be careful that we do not limit the work of the Holy Spirit to methods and means that are 100% in accord with Biblical teachings. But, that does not mean that we teach error ourselves. For every thing there is always a time and a place. I remember a time when as a congregational pastor a couple asked me to visit them. They wanted to know more about SDA teachings and they informed me that they were open to "new truth." They presented me with a list of five (5) doctrines that they stated were not subject to challenge. If the I disagreed with any of the five I was "toast," so to speak. And they wanted me to go over SDA teachings on those five points prior to anything else. Well, four (4) of those doctrinal points were as SDAs commonly understand the Bible. I agreed to study those five with them and I placed the four on which we agreed as our first studies. After studying the four, I had built a relationship and they were ready for the 5th. When I presented that one, they agreed and with that out of the way, we could go on to other Biblical issues. Folks, we do not immediately have to correct every error that we see in a person. The Holy Spirit does not do that. The Holy Spirit has a time and a place and such may not have come for us. God has more to present you and I in the future than we understand now. Yes, The Shack is defective and imperfect. It clearly may not be for everyone. But, that does not mean that the HS can't use it as a beginning point in one's spiritual journey to a true understanding of God.

“Begin by thanking Him for some little thing, and then go on, day by day, adding to your subjects of praise...until you see in everything some cause for thanksgiving. ” - Priscilla Maurice

By the way, my 2nd son is dong the painting. Before he took his present job as a Correctional Officer at a near-by prison, he painted for a high-end painting contractor.

Are they the only issues? Certainly not. Independent ministries (those not financially dependent upon the financial support of the denomination) like TOP seem to be an issue. At a grass roots level, the veracity of some of EGW's proclamations is an issue. The traditional SDA view of eschatology is an issue. If one reads this forum, the divinity of the Holy Spirit is an issue. There are lots of issues, depending on your point of view.

I do not foresee anything that would drive me away from God's remnant church. I was sharing with a fruend in a 12-Step group that I am an Aventist. He shared that a friend of his visitted the Adventist church and liked it. The next week was potluck and she was asked to bring a vegetarian plate so she did. However at potluck one of the members talked down to her saying she wouldn't eat the dish because it had cheese. So she left and never went back. i confessed to my friend that sounded like something that could happen because there is a small minority of self-rigteous folks in every church. Before I could finish the story, my friend agreed and commented that self-righteous folks are not just limmited to the Adventist churches. I went on to tell him of a Mexican family that visitted a church in Minnesota where I attended college. When they brought chicken to potluck, our pastor sat at their table and ate their chicken with them. The self-righteous folks were ready to hang the pastor for hearosy.

Thank you all for your response. I live in Kelowna, BC. Canada. We have about 5 churches here. I've been to all of them. There is a very large retirement community in Kelowna. It is a lovely place to retire, so the majority of Adventists here are elderly. Still, I found the legalistic attitude to even be in the pastors, and they were not old. However, I don't wish to say only bad things about the church. I know by reading Adventist magazines that there are many Adventist organizations that help the poor and do a lot of good. There are many wonderful preachers, Ty Gibson comes to mind and his Lighthouse organization. Of course ADRA is wonderful. I love the thought by Gayatfootofcross, that "...something beautiful will come forth," after the shaking.

Hi Belle! Nice to meet you! There is a growing movement that you are a part of I see emerging. I myself growing up SDA (more or less) church witnessed my tiny rural conservative church do what you described ad naseum. We were right in the middle of independent ministries and self supporting lil companies of people here and there. I heard it all and saw it all. People either confronting others are talking about others. What was worn at church. What they ate at church. What was in their grocery carts in the small town stores. I thought that was Christianity! I became just like them. And boy was I in trouble thinking that is how god is toward me as well UGH!. There was no safe place. He was no safe place. You cant invite others to this and expect them to be happy ..much less Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee. You mention the shaking. Yes yes! I believe the Church will fall. Fall hard and fall big and something beautiful will come forth. A Remnant who's focus will not be on my failings or others but on Jesus and His Love for us. And His Love on others. To look upon each person as Jesus Himself no matter who or what they are! The dos and don'ts will not be on anyone's mind or breath .. but only two of the Highest Standards will drive this Remnant. Sealed that God is in absolute head over heels in love with you and everyone else. This people (church) will be a Safe Place for you to bring others into the Fold before Jesus comes to take us Home. So happy to meet you here

I left the Adventist Church because of legalism, unkindness, and constant criticism of its members. The last day I went to my regular church, the old guard were berating another teenager about the song she sang and using a guitar. This was around 20 years ago. I much prefer to worship God in my own way in my own home with my family. My husband had quit going a year before me because when he had cancer and was in the hospital, some Adventist couples came to visit him and told him he got cancer because he ate meat and he was going to hell. That was just the last straw for him. I could write a book on the meanness of Seventh-Day-Adventists. When I decided I couldn't in good conscience bring a visitor to my church, that was the day I said to myself, "What am I doing here?" What the church needs is love, love, love. Mrs. White says the church will be good when thousands leave in the shaking and thousands from outside come in. That will be a good day.

Sojourner, the incident that seemed to have caused her desire to no longer attend the church was likely only "the straw that broke the camel's back". Take it to the Lord in prayer; take your wife and children with you! Ask her questions about her own spiritual journey and listen to her answers. Walk in harmony with her and find out what it is she needs. Be a leader; not only a defender. Be a provider; but also be her help meet. This was not about church--it was about your relationship with your wife. 10An excellent wife, who can find? For her worth is far above jewels. 11The heart of her husband trusts in her, And he will have no lack of gain. 12She does him good and not evil All the days of her life. 13She looks for wool and flax And works with her hands in delight. 14She is like merchant ships; She brings her food from afar. 15She rises also while it is still night And gives food to her household And portions to her maidens. 16She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard. 17She girds herself with strength And makes her arms strong. 18She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night. 19She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hands grasp the spindle. 20She extends her hand to the poor, And she stretches out her hands to the needy. 21She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet. 22She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple. 23Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land. 24She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies belts to the tradesmen. 25Strength and dignity are her clothing, And she smiles at the future. 26She opens her mouth in wisdom, And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. 27She looks well to the ways of her household, And does not eat the bread of idleness. 28Her children rise up and bless her; Her husband also, and he praises her, saying: 29“Many daughters have done nobly, But you excel them all.” 30Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised. 31Give her the product of her hands, And let her works praise her in the gates.

Oh brother, Let's see who gave good advice. Did anyone but me point Sojourner to God as the main solution for the situation. No. That is a terrible omission. God is to be the first place we turn to for help in any of the difficulties of life. As to the rest of what was put forward, I will use an illustration out of my own life. Back in the 70's I was a cigarette smoking, pot smoking, heavy drinking, wild man. Every third or fourth word that came out of my mouth was the f-bomb and it was so much a part of me I did not realize I was doing it. One day at work a guy I worked with came up to me and told me I was offending his wife. I was so surprised I didn't know what to say. I asked how I was doing that, and he said your constant use of the f-bomb is highly offensive to her. I was still completely stunned that I had been offending someone I liked by my language. She came up to us as it was after work and I asked her if I really offended her. She said, yes. Your language is very offensive to me. I apologized to her and said I would do my best to stop using that word around her, and in doing so it came out again. I was mortified and apologized all over again and said it just came out without me even realizing it. It made me understand just how much I used the f-bomb. And it did get me to clean up my language a lot. Not just around her. We all three worked for a denominationally owned business and that guy could have gotten me into serious trouble by reporting me to my supervisor, but he was too big a man to do that. He came directly to me and explained the problem and I respected him for it. Had he gone to my supervisor and complained about me offending his wife he and I would have never gotten along after that in the least. I would have seen him as a conniving, sneaking rat. Instead of that we became friends over the situation. He understood I didn't mean offense, and I understood just how lousy my language had become. As I read Sojourner's story it is not clear to me that someone was intentionally cruel to his wife. She might have overheard a conversation between two people that just happened to mention they didn't think wearing jeans to church was appropriate and because she just happened to be there and wearing jeans she assumed it was directed at her. I simply do not have enough evidence to judge the situation. If Sojourner is so angry that he wants his "pound of flesh" by humiliating the person who spoke, then he should go to the board or pastor. However, if he wants nothing but to understand and to be a positive force for good then he should find the person who spoke and see what was actually going on. If I was the person who had said the words that hurt his wife that is how I would want him to act. To not even attempt to hear my side of the story and bring in the authority figures of the local church to come down on someone who may very well be innocent of maliciousness is a sure way to make sure there will be hard feelings afterwards. I would be deeply offended by such an action. If he did it to me the chances of him and I ever becoming friends afterwards would be between slim and none. However, if he came to me first, even if I had been malicious, I would respect him and like him for being a big enough man to deal with it himself rather than beating me over the head and shoulders with authority figures. The choice is his. He knows what he wants. I'll bet that once he cools down some he will not want to be offensive. He will seek a solution that helps all involved including the person with which he is now really angry.

Beware of well meaning people: If you will forgive me for what I have told before: My ex-wife and I were leaving church one Sabbath when a man came up to her and stated that he needed to ask her to forgive him. She informed him that she was not aware of anything that he had done to offend her. So, he proceeded to tell her that he had been telling people that he considered her to be rather ugly looking and he should have kept his thoughts to himself!

Gary K: The Biblical way, as you stated it, applies to the two individuals directly involved, which in this case is S. and his wife. On the assumption that the wife will not want to confront, S should turn it over to the system. The system has rules of procedure and S should let someone who is assumed to be fair and objective take over the situation. It is not the job of S to confront the individual. Both Green and I have given advice on this. NOTE: Again, as I have said, it may be that the spiritual interests of the wife are best served by letting it go. If the individual typically reacts to people in that way, it will happen again and others can respond as appropriate.

Sojourner, I am really sorry that this happened to your wife. My advice is to first take it to God in a lot of prayer. What I mean by that is keep on praying about it every day. Do not just give it a one time shot and if you do not see results from one prayer stop praying about it. Tell God exactly how you feel about the pain your wife feels and the anger you feel. Be completely real with Him. Then ask Him to work this out with all parties concerned, including yourself. After you have been praying about it for a week or so then start to act on it yourself. I would not go first to the pastor or the church board. If you can remember who was doing the greeting ask around for who made the remarks to your wife and then go to them and ask why. That is the Biblical way to go about things. Take it up with the individual first. If that does no good take it to the head elder and have him help. Then take it to the entire church if working with an elder fails. Follow the way God told us to work through things and God will honor your needs and requests for help.

There is some value is what Green said. I suspect that many women would not want to return to such a congregation. My real mission would be to do the best for my wife, if I was in that situation. I would likely consider that the best for her would be to get her into another congregation if possible. That would be my mission, not to fix the congregation. If I were able to get my wife into another congregation, I would then consider what Green has suggested, as long as I thought that I could accomplish that without spiritual harm to my wife. However, in addressing the local congregation, I would attempt to work through the local pastor, with that pastor taking the lead, rather than going over the head of the pastor and directly to the Church Board. Right or wrong, the local pastor commonly has great influence over the Church Board. I would want to have the pastor working with me. In military terms, winning a battle may result in losing the war. All to often we can get ourselves into situations where we defeat our fundamental mission by doing that. I would carefully consider whether or not to take such an issue to the ministerial secretary. It might be the thing to do. And, it might not be? In any case, Green has added value to the conversation.

? I would address the matter differently. Rather than run from the problem, face it and address it. Ask to see the pastor first. Share with him what happened. Ask him if you may present the matter to the church board. The church needs to know and to deal with the situation, and one member should not ruin church attendance for you when other members likely welcome you and would miss you if you leave. Let the church board investigate and deal with the individual and/or instruct the church membership at large in how to be hospitable and Christlike. It is the duty of the church to do this. If the pastor and/or church board is unwilling to address it, write a letter to the ministerial secretary of the conference and inform him of the situation. Something will happen. Jesus never once cast someone out for their apparel--not even naked people. The righteousness of Christ is to be our spiritual apparel, and clearly some in the church do not have it. This should be a concern of top priority for them, lest they lose their own salvation--like Jesus said to the Jewish leaders of His day: "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Matthew 23:13)