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In recent times, there have been attempts to present Christianity to a post-Christian world in a manner that will reach the secular mind. One example of this would be The Chronicles of Narnia, by C. S. Lewis. On the Seventh-day Adventist front an example of this would be The Record Keeper. Unfortunately, after a production investment estimated to be some $1,000.000, denominational administrators withdrew support for this project. Currently, a SDA pastor is proposing a new effort to bring the story of salvation to a secular audience. He has formed an organization known as Screaming Rock Media to produce such material. One focus of his efforts is intended to be in the Japanese animation form known as Anime. As some reading this post will likely know, Anime is wildly popular on the world level. It is his wish to present the story of salvation as found in the Book of Revelation. To do this is expected to be very expensive. It can be questioned as to whether or not he can raise the funds needed to produce this video. Further, in view of the reaction of certain administrators to The Record Keeper it can be questioned as to how this will be received in the SDA denomination. For more information about this please see: http://screamingrockmedia.com For information about this film project see: http://screamingrockmedia.com/film-project NOTE: I thank Debbym for bringing this to my attention.

I am breaking Stan's request to allow this video showing STRAIGHT government officials in Holland holding hands in response to a report of 2 gay men being attacked for holding hands. blob:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/d6956d3c-984b-4325-b4dd-d42ee7cb3ddd Is this wrong? And why is it wrong? Granted you will likely affection between friends of the same gender more in Europe than in North America. Gordon Downie, the dying lead singer of the Tragically Hip, kisses his male friends on the lips. He is not gay, but married with children. We are not used to seeing it in public and the gesture makes for sexual images. But if that is so, then it would be wrong to hold hands or kiss little kids, like REALLY wrong. Here is the article about the Dutch public servants: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/netherlands-men-holding-hands_us_58e3c151e4b0f4a923b24fd5?utm_hp_ref=power-of-humanity

In Romans 7, Paul is speaking of this conundrum. He WANTS to change His ways [repent] - but finds it impossible. Why would this be true, IF (as Samie contends) Paul was already "in Christ" and "saved" the moment he was born? CJB Romans 7:15 "I don't understand my own behavior - I don't do what I want to do; instead, I do the very thing I hate! 16 Now if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am agreeing that the Torah is good. 17 But now it is no longer "the real me" doing it, but the sin housed inside me. 18 For I know that there is nothing good housed inside me - that is, inside my old nature. I can want what is good, but I can't do it! 19 For I don't do the good I want; instead, the evil that I don't want is what I do! 20 But if I am doing what "the real me" doesn't want, it is no longer "the real me" doing it but the sin housed inside me. 21 So I find it to be the rule, a kind of perverse "torah," that although I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me! 22 For in my inner self I completely agree with God's Torah; 23 but in my various parts, I see a different "torah," one that battles with the Torah in my mind and makes me a prisoner of sin's "torah," which is operating in my various parts." Do we repent [change our ways] FIRST? Or do we believe in Christ FIRST, and THEN - Christ changes us? I believe the latter. Those who logically come to see that evil is NOT good, also come to a place of great frustration BECAUSE they cannot BE GOOD. They may try many different "remedies" - which then fail them. IF they come to know Christ, ONLY THEN do they find the transformation and "goodness" that they seek for themselves. IMO - Those who believe we must "be good" (repent) in order to be "forgiven" are looking at this from a legal perspective. Jesus paid a price (presumably to God, or to "the Law") so that humans could "be forgiven" by God. Those who believe we cannot "be good" until we ARE "forgiven", are ALSO looking at things from a legal perspective. Jesus paid a price, therefore God has "forgiven" all sins. Samie says men CANNOT BELIEVE until they are FIRST "forgiven", therefore God must have forgiven, because men can believe. IMO: God has not treated mankind as He could justly and legally have done. He could have left us to stew in our own hatreds until we slowly died and passed out of existence. Rather He has treated us as a loving father who just wants to win us back to a trusting, respectful relationship. He did this because He loves us - yes. But He did this BECAUSE we were deceived - by the Evil One. It was NOT OUR FAULT that we were born into a war zone, between super spirit powers. Does this mean that God the Father HAS FORGIVEN us? What does it MEAN - to "forgive" ? Oxford University says it means "to excuse" and "to stop feeling angry towards someone who has wronged you". Strong's equates the word "forgive" with the word "pardon". No "punishment" or "revenge" will be exacted upon the one who wronged another, or broke the law BY the one wronged. First: God never "felt" angry towards us - just hurt. Second: We all experience the "punishment" demanded by God's Law - death. God WANTS to give us "life", but only His indwelling spirit can do THAT, and we must open the door to THAT. IMO: Believing is OUR PART. Believing is our RESPONSE to God's pleading spirit. Christ's suffering death is the EVIDENCE God uses to convince us that He loves us, and we can "return home". God will NOT do the believing FOR US. This is the crunch point - the linchpin - in the whole process. This is the opening of the heart to the spirit of Christ. Christ will NOT pry open the door!!! He just knocks. I am looking at things from a trust perspective. Jesus paid a price (did what it took) so that men (hearing about the price He paid) could believe in God, and trust Him. THEN they will open their hearts. And THEN they can be healed. This still leaves men the FREE-WILL option NOT to believe, NOT to open their hearts, and NOT to be healed/empowered. So I do NOT believe the forgiveness comes BEFORE the believing. Forgiveness IS healing, and we cannot be healed UNTIL we open our heart to the Spirit of Life. Matthew 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you." (Mat 9:2 NKJ) Matthew 9:5 "For which is easier, to say,`Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say,`Arise and walk '? 6 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"-- then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

As I have previously posted, doctrines should take into consideration the harmony of Scriptures on the subject. In OT types, forgiveness was granted AFTER atonement was made. In the NT antitype, atonement was made when Christ died, hence forgiveness became a reality, and that includes the forgiveness done in the old covenant. Had Christ NOT died, forgiveness under the old covenant would have been worthless. Forgiveness - past, present, future - derive their salvific significance from what Christ did FOR all as manifested and revealed on the cross of Calvary. Both John and Peter from the verses you quoted, based their understanding of forgiveness from the old covenant types. Those shadow of things had been overruled by reality: Christ - the ANTITYPE. To RECEIVE something simply signifies the thing being received is already EXISTENT otherwise there is none to receive. Forgiveness became EXISTENT because Christ has died. His death is payment for all sins because the wages of sin is death. Forgiveness is God's act, not man's. And whatever God does FOR man is all grace NOT work. To preach that unless man repents he cannot be forgiven is preaching a works-based salvation. Again, REPENTANCE is the Greek metanoia - a change of mind for that which is good. Instead of doing evil, man changes his mind and does good. IOW, it is overcoming evil with good. Repentance comes AFTER forgiveness. Only the forgiven CAN repent because they are already in Christ and therefore are ABLE to do SOMETHING - they can repent, for APART from Him man can do NOTHING. To preach that unless man repents he cannot be forgiven and hence cannot be in Christ, is preaching AGAINST what Christ said - Apart from Me man can do NOTHING. Under the old covenant type, it was the high priest that confessed all sins of the people upon the head of the sin bearer - the scapegoat. In the new covenant antitype, Christ our High Priest confessed all sins of humanity upon Himself - our sin bearer, and carried them to a land NOT inhabited - death.

This topic is more extensive than I have either the time or the energy to get into. I must say that I do not always agree with Samie. I am not saying that I agree with everything that he has posted in this thread. But, I will say, without getting more deeply involved, that overall, I have more agreement with what Samie has posted than I have with what Jackson has posted. Samie is on the right track on this subject.