Leaderboard

My understanding is that "salvation by works" MEANS "salvation because of works". God will "save" me IF I do enough good works. Obedience (of the Law), or obedience towards God - is simply one category of "good works". It fits under the "works" category. The problem with this thinking, is that we cannot do ANY "good works". Everything we try to do - in our own strength - is always contaminated with selfishness. I think Isaiah said it well. "All OUR righteousnesses are like filthy menstrual rags" (Isa. 64:6) He couldn't think of anything more unclean. I wish he had said leprous rags, but oh well. WHEN we come to realize that we are absolutely helpless to do any "works" good enough to EARN salvation, we come to a crisis point. We can "give up" and turn away from God, saying "This is impossible". OR - we can "give up" and plead for God to live IN US. When we "give up" (really give up) AND plead for God to do His good works - through us, that is when we see a wonderful change in our behaviors. (That's the grace.) But we can't claim the credit for them. God get's the credit. All we did was surrender. After THAT - the challenge is to stay out of HIS way. We keep wanting to jump in - to "fight our way" into Canaan. I will tell you. Giving up is scary. It's like "falling backwards" hoping your partner will catch you. But until you try it - with God, you cannot experience real victories in your life. I personally had to reach a point of total frustration, and actually feeling angry at God (telling me to be so "good" when He knew I couldn't be). But reaching that breaking point, was the only way I would finally "let go". The more victories you experience - by "letting go" - "turning it over" - "surrender" - "giving up", the easier it gets.

Samie, You might try using "in my opinion" (IMO) before your statements concerning your view, or "I believe". That will tell others that you are not claiming infallibility. We are all searching for better understanding, and for better words to convey that understanding to others. I do not believe anyone here has a malicious intent - to deceive. Jesus could actually claim infallibility. I don't think we should. And Joe, You embarrass me with your praise. I'm not an academic. I've never studied Greek and know only a few songs of Hebrew. I just use dictionaries and concordances like other ordinary folk. I felt called to teach, and led to put my studies up online. (10,000+ visitors last month to prophecyviewpoint.com) I pray constantly for His help, to make the teachings understandable for ordinary folk. I dislike pedestals. The air is too thin up there.

Obedience? Or Salvation by Works? What is the difference?

The following is a chapter in my personal story. It is a story that requires some background to understand, so, I will give that. With the Presidency of Donald Trump and the attention that North Korea has been recently given by the world, in recent weeks, I have spent some time in reflecting on a 32 year-old event in which I married my present wife. As many of you know, we met and got married in Seoul, Korea, at a time when I was in the Army and she was teaching in the English Department of the SDA University. Background: The American military practices constantly to go to war. We call those "war games." Some units may spend 1/3 of their time in such practice, others may spend either more or less. When one is stationed in a country such as South Korea, those exercises may include the evacuation of U.S. civilian personnel. In such countries, those exercises are very important. My future wife and I had gone through a complex military process in order to get permission to marry. She had undergone a background check to see if in any way she was a security risk. She had undergone a medical examination in order to determine whether or not she had any dread disease. There had been other paperwork to establish that I was of sound mind. Permission had been granted. In our situation in South Korea, marriage it totally a civil, governmental function with no possibility of a religious aspect. In order to get married we would have to take a sheaf of paperwork to three (3) different Korean governmental offices in Seoul, have them issue and stamp and sign documents. After the 3rd office we would be married. Then we would need to take documents to the U.S. Embassy in Seoul for more administrative work to include a change in her passport status and visa. The morning came that we had scheduled to do all of this. That was the morning that they called one of those war games, to include the evacuation of U.S. civilians. I had a decision to make: Was I going to participate, or was I going to get married. If I did not participate, I would likely end my military service, if I got caught. I decided that the most important thing in my life was to get married. If I got caught, I would have to suffer the consequences. So, that is the decision that I made. What happened? I did not get caught. I was able to complete my time in the Army and 32 years later, I am still married to the woman that I married those many years ago. This is the first time I have told of this to anyone other than my wife. I did not tell her until many years later. Good decision. I would do it again.

I may not have known it at the time, but the road to homelessness first began for me when I was sexually molested at the age of twelve. It was that very moment that would send me down a path of self-destruction that would eventually lead me to this point, forty years later. It was […] View the rest of this great article

Hmmm ... This is like deja vu' all over again. Seems like there all already dozens of threads on CA where Samie has expressed this viewpoint over and over. Hopefully this thread won't turn into another one. I believe that there is a third choice - salvation by grace. " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Eph. 2:8-10) So ... God gives us grace - by which we are already saved - if we choose to embrace that grace. By that grace we are then empowered to obey; and part of that obedience is doing the works that God has prepared for us who CHOOSE to believe.

I know I said I was done; but I had a thought today. I am willing to admit that all humans are born with a measure of (or a capacity for) faith. Samie claims that this comes from Christ; so that we can believe in Him. About 2.2 billion out of 7.5 billion people have embraced that faith and directed it towards Yahweh. 5.3 billion have taken that spark of faith and directed it elsewhere - whether it be Allah (aka satan), Vishnu, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius, self, ancestral spirits, fetishes, the world, etc. So the measure of faith allegedly "given" all by Christ has been directed elsewhere by 2/3 of the planet's population. Doesn't sound like that God-given measure of faith is being directed at God very effectively. Could it be that this measure of faith is just part of human DNA - an instinctive desire to fill the supernatural void in everyone's heart? No different than a fish's instinctive drive to swim, or a bird's instinctive drive to fly, or the instinct of self preservation, or sexual satisfaction? Yes - God may give everyone a measure of faith as an instinct (like the instinct to breathe); but He does not dictate where that faith is directed. Like Joshua said: " But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh. 24:15) Joshua CHOSE to worship Yahweh. God gave that CHOICE to all. Those who have never heard of Jesus or Yahweh chose other things to fill that void in their hearts. Samie, please don't ask me for specific scriptures to back up these thoughts. I gave the base scripture that gave me this idea. That's all it is - an idea, not a dogma.

Jesus is better than me (or you).

But, it makes sense, in that is how America felt towards minorities. Minorities have/do suffer all across the world. One could say it is a human failure. When I say 'minority', I am using it in the broadest sense. I feel it is against the basic principle laid down by Christ message to the world. Do unto others, help those less fortunate, love your neighbor as yor self, etc, etc. Christianity does much to emphasize and perpetuate this type of discrimination by its many rules and regulations designed to keep 'pure' the message....whatever that may be. Human DNA!!

I'm sorry, I can not help but copy a poem that Fred Lee wrote and gave to James Londis, a well-known SDA pastor, on the 60th birthday of Londis. That poem is: A Chronicle of Our Beginnings It can now be known that our first meeting was at the Instigation of our rebellious wives who, on the Sabbath Day, Conspired to forego the rapture of church worship and Indulge their illicit desire to first purchase and then drink a Cup of coffee. You and I, priests of our family altars, who In those days did neither drink nor desire to drink such a Bitter, forbidden substance, nevertheless chose, in the Tradition of our father Adam, to go along with the sins of The wives whom the Lord gave us, rather than sit in lonely Contemplation through the rigors of another Sabbath School Lesson. And so, far from the pious protection of the Worshipping congregation, the four of us communed over The rising steam from a dark, pagan brew. In that Unforgettable hour we found a deep and abiding connection That has transformed into the inexplicable mystery of Intimate friendship. Blessed be that cup of coffee. Blessed be our special closeness, forever. Selah.

To illustrate some of the detail of this process: One of the documents that I provided to the Korean government was a copy of my divorce decree from my previous wife. The government official had a question, which I did not totally answer to his satisfaction. If I had been attempting to marry a Korean national, he might not have approved the marriage. But, due to the fact that I was attempting to marry a U.S. citizen he decided that the question that he had was a U.S. issue that did not affect the rights of a South Korean citizen and he approved the marriage. NOTE: I do not remember question that he had.

Yeah, very true and the article was really informative. I believe if you keep your faith, you keep your trust, you keep the right attitude, if you're grateful, you'll see God open up new doors.