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Samie's definition of "repent" is turning away from evil to do good. What about the times that God "repented"? (Gen:6-7-8, Ex. 32:14, (Deut. 32:36, Judges 2:18, 1Sam. 15, and many other places in the KJV). I believe the definition of "repent" is to "turn from your present course"; or "change your mind".

I've been thinking about the multitudes of Gentiles who have lived and died in ignorance of Christ Jesus. The blood of Christ covered sins committed in ignorance. That was the moed - the morning and evening sacrifice. Rabbis teach that it also covered sins of ignorance committed by the Gentiles. So - there is a definite sense in which the blood of Jesus covers ignorant pagans. Does THAT mean these people are "saved" - meaning they will be made immortal at the Second Coming? I say NO! The covering only lasted UNTIL the person came to understand that his actions were sin. Then he was to repent, bring a sin offering and confess his sin. If he did not - then the "curse" of death would rest on him. The covering bought time - for the person to HEAR and REPENT. The "covering" did NOT buy immortal life for these people, who never acknowledged Yahweh or His Law. There is a state in which a person is NEITHER "saved" (all sins forgiven - will be raised immortal) NOR "cursed" (meaning appointed for destruction) as was King Saul when the LORD's spirit was withdrawn from him. These person's are simply yet "unsaved" and "uncircumcised". They have not consciously REBELLED AGAINST GOD, but they HAVE "sinned" because their actions were forbidden by the Law of God, which governs all men. Children before the age of accountability, are in the same condition. I believe that a JUST GOD must allow such people to TRANSITION FROM ignorant, unsaved, uncircumcised TO either SAVED or CONDEMNED and "cursed", based upon their own free will choice.

Debating this did really help me with a study on Universalism. I practically rewrote the whole thing. Thanks

Are you aware of the meaning of the word "save" Samie? If every person was "saved" [past tense] - from what were they "saved" ?

Thank you, Gregory. It's good to hear there is some flexibility in some places, allowing persons who desire baptism without membership to go ahead and be baptized by an SDA pastor in an SDA church. Perhaps the concept will grow.

Lynndel, said in the quote below: Some SDA evangelists 50 - 100 years ago were doing just that. Those who did were pressured to change. But. I can not say that it has entirely stopped. In some SDA congregations today (2017) You can be baptized without joining the SDA denomination. This is NOT widely published. As it is not widely published, it is generally ignored by denominational leadership.

I have battle with this issue in the past. Joining a Church is similar to a joining a corporation, only members can have voting power, although most everyone can have voice. Decision to be made to reach out to the community or around the world is not only nice, but it is the gospel commission. One does not have to be a member of the Church to be a member here.

What God LOVES, He cannot in every case SAVE. Loving and saving are two different things. Parents of rebellious offspring know this. We are admonished to love - as God loves, which is not the same as loving those things which the world loves. "Love not the world" MEANS simply - do not love AS the world loves. "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, might not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) You Samie, want it to say: God so loved the world, that He saved the whole world and gave them everlasting life. But those who refuse to believe in His Son will be rendered unsaved and eternal life will be taken away from them, and they will perish.

The bottom line is that we are living in a time where many in our society are asking such questions, especially among those of a younger age than most of us.

Lynndel: You mention someone using tobacco. Yes, as my Associate Membership proposal was written, such a person could be given an Associate Membership. However, I will simply point out that in the present situation SDAs who use tobacco are often maintained as members. You ask about voting in a Church Business meeting. That is a formalized situation in which voting rights should be restricted to SDA members.

recently, in a galaxy far away. A member who has been attending for 30+ years, and is gay, and has been honest about it, had his membership removed. other members, who have not attended for 30+ years are still members in good an regular standing. to quote Forest Gump.. Stupid is as Stupid does. [NOTE: It is very rarely that I would edit the post of another person. It is less often that I would edit the post of Stan. But, when I first read his post my immediate thought was that Stan was now coming out of the closet and telling us that he was gay! As I do not believe such to be the case, and to prevent such from being thought by others, I have edited out a typo in the above post that removes the possibility that Stan might be coming out of the closet. Stan, if I was wrong and/or you object to my editing your post, please change it back--GM. ]

So it sounds like the bottom line is that membership is not all that important, but to those to whom it is, we need an associate membership category so that everyone can be a member. Would the associate category also be for those who currently are unable to live up to church standards in various ways (smokers, for example) or who might have been disfellowshipped under normal circumstances but would instead be demoted to associate status? To the church it might make a difference, but how does membership (or associate membership) help the individual? Is a non-member able to hold a position but unable to vote in church business meetings? It sounds like membership is a reward, and taking it away is used as punishment, or a "you can't be a member because you might embarrass the church" action. In the other side the coin, removing one's membership is often used by individuals to punish the church, a statement by the individual to the church saying, "You didn't measure up, therefore I wash my hands of you." I deal with these kinds of things since I am a church clerk, and sometimes I think membership limits the church in reaching out to those who have been removed or have removed themselves, because once having gone through the process of being separated, it creates an emotional wall, an uncomfortable point in time that makes it hard to come back and feel welcome. (Probably too many topics in one post. You should have seen it before I edited it.)

In my opinion, the requirements to join and to remain a SDA member are few in number--certainly less than the 28. But, we are living in a time where in our society at large people are attempting to draw boundaries that exclude as many people as possible and this has carried over in the Church and to its business and we see the same happeing today. I once pastored a congregation in which we decided that we would disfellowship a person only if the vote was 100% in favor of doing so. I would first ask for a vote against doing so and if their was even one (1) vote against doing so, I would immediately table the action and the process would stop.

The denomination and sometimes even the denomination may not have a good method of knowing who its friends are due to the fact that the only official records that exist may be those who have formally joined. I am aware, that some congregations recognize that there is a need for such and are making some sort of effort to have records that are helpful. Sometime within the past five years I made a proposal to a congregation that had number of people who actively (regularly) attended and participated in the services if the congregation to establish an Associate Membership list. As would probably be expected by people who understand the thinking of denominational leadership, such would not likely be considered positively by leadership. In any case, that congregation felt my proposal have been positive and of value. But, it did not fell that was the direction that it should go at that time. But it was felt to be helpful in that my proposal identified the issues and addressed each of them.

Misty is a full blood Yorkie, and Nakita is a full blood Chihuahua. I love all animals but really lean more towards cats. Nakita changed my mind about Chi's, I thought they were all ill-tempered ankle biters; but she is a real charmer and even though she was my son's and now mine since he is in college, she has decided she is my dog and she makes it very obvious.

It means that the human race today has been corrupted from what Adam and Eve were when they were created. On another point: Are you suggesting that since humans, Adam & Eve, were created with the ability to sexually reproduce, that such is also what God does. I ask due to your citation of the Biblical passage to the effect that humanity was created in the image of God. Is sexual reproduction part of that image in which humanity was created? I do not think so.

I've experienced God in my life since my childhood. He's saved my life several times through direct intervention. In the last couple of months God has performed two miracles at my request. Both involve the health of my dog. The first time I had taken my dog to the vet to get his teeth cleaned (small dogs have major problems with their teeth). The vet has to put him to sleep so I have them run blood tests on his kidneys to see if they will take the strain. The test came back that his kidneys were failing and he didn't have long to live. I took my pup home and started praying about it asking God to spare his life because of what he means to me. I took him back to the vet two weeks later and had his kidneys retested. The test came back normal. The second thing involved an injury. I take him up into a wildlife refuge and let him run on a back road where there isn't any traffic. He was stopped messing around out of sight at the right front corner of the car. This road is a two-track road. The right tires in one track the left tires in the other. Grass grows up on each side of tracks and in the middle. I could see the grass moving off to the right side of the track and assumed that's where my dog was. I started the car rolling forward very slowly and suddenly there was a yip from my dog. I got out to see what happened and he was standing in front of the car on three legs. He was holding his right hind leg off the ground. I picked him up and put him in the car with me and started driving forward to a place where I could turn around and my dog was whining to get let out so I figured nothing much was wrong. I opened the door and he got out and trotted on ahead of the car. However, every once in a while he would stop using his right hind leg and let out a little yip of pain. So, I picked him up and put him back in the car and closely examined his leg and paw. I couldn't find anything wrong.. He usually jumps up into my lap when I'm sitting in the house but now he was unwilling to try to jump. I figured something had just gotten wreched(sprained) a little and he'd get over it in a day or two. However, two days later he was worse and unable to use his leg at all, and his tail, which he normally carries curled up over his back was trailing on the ground at all times. So, I got worried and did a physical examination of him. Running my fingers down each side of his spine I found a spot just in front of his hips in which his spine wasn't even close to straight. It was at least a 1/4" out of alignment. Oh, and he was carrying his hips so that they were tucked up underneath him, not his normal way of carrying them. I tried to gently turn his hips back to there normal position and I got bitten before I even knew what happened. It was before my dog knew what happened too because he acted so sheepish afterward that I knew it wasn't something he thought about doing. It just hurt him so bad when I gently tried to straighten his hips that he bit me by reflex. I got really worried now because of that abnomality in his spine. I started praying once again and asking God to heal him. I told God I'd pay for a vet bill if I could but that He knew I didn't have money for surgery. I told Him it was my fault my dog had gotten hurt. I just hadn't been careful enough and I just couldn't stand to see him crippled up because of that. I asked God to please heal him because being a God of love it was unlike Him to see my dog have to suffer for my carelessness. I reminded God that He could heal my dog with just a word, that that was all it would take to relieve his suffering. I thanked Him and went to sleep. The next morning I woke up and my dog was completely back to normal. He jumped off the bed and his tail was curled up over his back once more and his jaunty little trot was back. I checked his spine and it was once again aligned the way it was supposed to be. God has answered so many of my prayers over the years that there is no doubt in my mind that God is real and that he answers prayer.

God was real to me since my early childhood, because the supernatural was real to me. I witnessed strange things occurring and came to the realization very early in life that we are not alone in this world. These strange events in my childhood were almost (if not) all from the dark side, and not God's doing, but seeing them convinced me that other similar stories were true, and hearing those stories along with witnessing what I did lead me to conclude, when the idea of God was presented to me, that He must be real. That, and my very first memory (that I can remember being my first, though I wonder sometimes if it really was), also convince me that the Bible is true about death, and if about death, than about other things. Said memory and believing that the Bible is correct about death, also lead me to conclude that these supernatural things I was seeing were not spirits of the dead, but some other life form that was with us. Since then, God has showed me His love and miracles and mercies in many ways. I believe even more than I have been able to see myself, including miracles and other stories about God in the Bible and similar stories and testimonies of miracles from other people who have lived since the last book of the Bible was written, though God has answered my prayers and prayers of my friends as well, and I have seen people's hearts change. I find it difficult not to believe in God, and in creation, because I love art and am a bit of an artist/writer/designer myself. These things around us are too beautiful, and our minds are too complex, and so is science, for us to simply have exploded into existence without reason nor purpose, or to have developed from some small, unreasoning blob. There are more reasons, too, including the work that He has done in my life, on my own character, giving me victory over so many problems, and giving me a peace that is beyond understanding. How can I fully and adequately express my reasons for believing in God, or the evidence I have? These are some of the most obvious things, but there are more. I suppose we could simplify it by saying, "I simply do. It's easier for me to believe that He exists, and that He created all us and nature, than it is to believe that He doesn't exist, and that we ended up here some other way."