Leaderboard

I was pretty limited in how i viewed the world and the church, the righteous and the unrighteous in my twenties. My closeness to my church family was so precious to me, and was a commodity i could not find out there. Then I lived through a baptism of distress and years of suffering to the point where I questioned my position as a child of God. This was the crucible where i learned I was a member of the human race that was loved by God whether it was in the glory of the comforts of life or in the pits of human despair. It was amazing to me that there was never a time when I was not above being tested and tempted to distrust God's love. I still have limitations, and church as a body of people has limitations. How we relate and live with those limitations as church members, present or former... seems to be much about where we find ourselves in relation to our involvement with Church membership. I run into good strong members, staunch financial supporters of Church, needed and valued for their contributions, but personally cold as ice. They see everything as it truly is, just ask them. Then i meet warm friendly church members whose lives are series of unravelings, who are holding onto the promises, though emotionally ravaged by wave after wave of uncertainties. That these two groups tolerate each other... is impressive. Then there is another group that have all the intricacies of faith and religion intellectually smoothed out ready to train anyone's mind, they are the technical religious geeks, and they are over there sometimes on the right sometimes on the left. Among many other groups, young families, educators, medicals folks, poverty stricken, addicts, aged, there are those who are trying to feed the world, evangelize the world, change the world. I recognize some holding everyone's hand they are somewhere over on the left.... God alone could be in charge of His church. At different stages of our lives church meets different needs. It is one body of people through all the ages, they are the faithful. And sometimes we are distant from church even when we are attending. I believe sometimes we are very much the church when we are not present at church services week after week. My church family lives in me. The church in history lives in me. The bible characters of faith, failing at times, strong in faith at times, live in me. There have been horrible times for the church, and few public glorious victorious rejoicing times, that portend a better day. However the church appeared, it has always been divinely appointed and sustained, and preserved. I am thankful for the light that has shined on my life through members of "the church". I want to be that light for someone else.

YES IN SPADES ..oooh toot tootsie welcome to my world

Good Question, Wanderer - no offense taken. Yes I have. The proof of my personal subjectiveness is that my "theology" (if you want to call it that) has drifted over the years. My personal convictions now are way different than they were 10 years ago. I was a militantly "Taliban" Adventist until about 15 years ago - very conservative by all standards. I now consider myself a "recovering legalist". I am appalled at how exclusive, self-righteous, and judgmental I was then - I have repented greatly of those days.

I do.

@samie your rudeness is about to get your voted off the island.

North Korea, very frightening and intense place for Christians. May God intervene for those who are laying their lives down for others.

We are to give "thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph 5:20 NKJ). Hence God our Father IS "the power source". Jesus is the conduit for that power. Rachel, JoeMo & Jackson ALSO believe that Jesus Christ IS the only source of power for doing good. They also believe the Power can act upon a person's mind from the OUTSIDE - drawing, knocking, pleading. The person can respond to the drawing Power. We HAVE that ability to respond. It is built in to us. We also have the ability to RESIST. We have said this over and over and over. The power is the same. The source is the same. Because a "measure of faith" is GIVEN to "everyone" - does NOT MEAN that everyone is "in Christ" or abides "in Christ". Paul clearly stated that we are "baptized INTO His death" and "baptized into Christ". Before that baptism, the person is NOT "in Christ" and has not "died" with Christ. Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27 NKJ)

That's fine, but it's still subjective. A congregation that I may consider too conservative many others could consider to be too liberal; and vice versa (although a much smaller chance of the latter occurring). Also, some are "too liberal" on some things and "too conservative" on others. In practice, those who are "too liberal" are those more liberal than me; and those who are "too conservative" are those more conservative than me. I'm actually okay with the doctrine or philosophy of most believers - liberal or conservative. To me, the questios "How is your relationship with Jesus?" or "What has God done for you today?" are more important questions than "How do you feel about going to a restaurant on Sabbath?"; or "Do you REALLY believe those 4 Hail Mary's you just recited is adequate penance for the sins you just confessed to that priest?"

This is how I feel. The congregation we attend was a "company" for many years. We recently organised as a "church". Things are more formal now; office holders from Sabbath school teacher to assistant greeter are held by tithe-paying, baptised members of the local congregation. Now most of the sermons are delivered by professional clergymen. I personally preferred the days when we were a "company" and we didn't worry about all these formalities. I was baptised as a teenager in the mid-80s. At the time I did sign on to the "27" as they were back in the 80s. Today I could not sign on to the 2015 version of the 28; I'm not sure I could even sign on to the 80s version of the 27. My personal habits are not in accordance with SdA dogma. I see no reason to resign my membership or resign my "offices", nor do I feel any need to discuss any of my doctrinal differences with church members. The internet has been a blessing for me as I've been able to discuss some of these issues in a semi-anonymous manner.

I was baptized as an SDA in 1977. In a certain sense, I will always be an SDA. That being said, if I were ever disfellowshipped for some reason, I would still attend an SDA church. The membership is irrelevant to me. That being said, I have no problem attending other churches. I attend Charismatic churches when I feel like in need a Holy Spirit refill. I attend Catholic Churches when I'm with my predominantly Catholic families. I know certain priests as friends rather than clergy. I attend by daughter's non-denominational (basically Baptist) church where her husband is the pastor. Outside of the fact that we meet on Saturday morning and the vegetarian breakfast we serve, one would never know they were in an SDA Church if they were to visit. We meet at the Comedy Club in Denver ( "a funny place to go to church"), there is no mention of EGW, and no offering pleas (yet we are well funded by people who attend). Visitors don't even know who the pastor is because our attitude is that we are all pastors. It's probably also that we don't have an assigned pastor; but we do quite well just taking turns leading out in the message - one book of the Bible at a time. It's great not to be forced into a box when worshiping Yahweh!

[in answer to Bravus' question,] I cannot speak for another. Learning, however, is volitional. For the seeing eye, I think that debate was quite instructive. IN addition, reaffirmation is also an important kind of learning, even if it is not 'new.' Good luck making the distinction stick... The point is that disallowing repetition and quotation -- even if possible, which I doubt -- will not produce the desired results. Do you see a lot of learning going on anywhere here?

I think (oops, speaking for Tom) that the goal is to say it once, say it clearly and then assume people are smart enough to understand it - and if they don't agree, it's probably *not* because they didn't understand or didn't listen, it's for one of the dozens of other reasons people disagree. I certainly know that for me endless repetition tends to *reduce*, rather than aid comprehension. And in reference to prayer the Bible says not to use endless repetition.

Sort of like shouting slowly in English to a non-English speaking person in hopes that will help them understand better... :smile:

I have an original thought. I think. Yes. I do. It is ... I hate the rule that you can't even repeat yourself. I may need to do that because others may not believe my original thought. Whatever it is.