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Gail, you are right. The same thing happened to you and I got worried it would happen again if the problem source wasn't found and corrected before it happened again. None-the-less, I do love Stan for saying the postings made him happy. It's so nice to have 'fans' in my databank.

I CAN AGREE with this. It will be the realization that they have LOST eternal life - which they might have enjoyed. THAT will be the punishment. The terminally rebellious are resurrected to HEAR judgment pronounced against them. Who knows - maybe they are given a little time to let the realization sink in. But - I believe - their actually DEATH will be quick - like Nadab and Abihu, or the 250 princes. I believe their DEATH will actually be merciful, because it will end their suffering. And it certainly will prevent more suffering of others (should they be allowed to continue living) - so THAT is also merciful. If Jesus FELT His separation from the Father was permanent, THEN He DID experience the agony of "punishment death". I don't call it the "second death" because I have a different understanding of "the second death". Good insight Jackson!! This kind of insight that makes the discussion worth it. Jesus could suffer punishment death FOR all of humanity, and still later reject (for His kingdom) those who have knowingly continued in resistance/rebellion against Him. All I'm saying is that Jesus' suffering FOR all of humanity, did not leave those who knowingly continue in rebellion/resistance free from guilt. The punishment was not permanently REMOVED from them, when Christ suffered FOR them. Another topic - I realize. But just wanted to comment on the when/what of "punishment" vs "second death". Adventist theology puts both at the same event. I do not. In my view - there is "punishment death" and there is "the second death". I believe the rebellious who are resurrected to judgment at the Second Coming, will then experience "punishment death" - death with the realization that they have lost eternal life. Thus the "weeping and gnashing of teeth". I believe there will be multitudes/many who are resurrected to this judgment at the Second Coming (Daniel 12:2-3). But - there will also be millions who are NOT RESURRECTED at the Second Coming. These will be "the rest". THEY will "not live again" for 1000 years. These will be the people who were not able to CHOOSE Yahweh/and Christ because they were immature or ignorant because of life circumstances. They must be given the opportunity to CHOOSE. Everyone who is given eternal life in the Kingdom of Messiah, will have chosen to serve Him. These people will be resurrected to continue their lives on the earth, with Messiah ruling, to make their CHOICE concerning whom they will serve. Those who join the Army of Gog, will experience "punishment death" when they come up in their attempt to overthrow the rule of Christ. THEN will come the final judgment, and AFTER THAT "the lake of fire". In the text of Revelation, the final great white throne judgment, with the Ancient of Days presiding FOLLOWS AFTER Gog/Magog. Hence the lost are all physically DEAD at that point. So there is no suffering associated with "the second death" - for lost humans. (Satan and his angels are another story. They WILL be tormented there.) I see only (1) the resurrection to judgment at the Second Coming, and (2) the resurrection of "the rest" at the 8th millennium. I don't see a THIRD resurrection. Those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire, after the great white throne judgment ARE DEAD. Personally - I believe what is thrown into the "fire" is that part of a human being which God could use to resurrect him. Call it a heavenly version of a memory stick download from a human mind. After that "memory" is destroyed - it is impossible to resurrect that person again. If human beings are resurrected to judgment and "punishment death" at the Second Coming, why would God resurrect them AGAIN, to judgment them AGAIN, to execute them AGAIN a thousand years later. In my mind, that doesn't make sense. And I DO NOT BELIEVE the redeemed will want to exact further vengeance in the form of intense suffering, upon "the wicked". They will be ready to "let it go". If God were to inflict further intense torment upon human beings, no matter how wicked - with the universe of redeemed watching, WHAT MESSAGE would that send. In my mind, that would take us right back to obedience from FEAR. It's just not something I see God doing. Just my opinion.

@Stan .... I suggest you go into some old thread that is only one page long and not very important on content. Delete one of the messages and see if the whole thread also disappears. Then that must give an indication of a bug in the software.

The purpose of "church" was originally for the assembling of ourselves together with fellow believers. Ideally, when you go to your church, you would feel like you are coming home, gathering with people who know you and care for you. I would guess that there is a percentage in every congregation who does not have that feeling of belonging. Some of them stick by because they were born to it or it is in their culture. Some eventually leave, sometimes because they have tried to offer to be part of the working body, but their talents are not desired. I think of one who was a musician at one church, who eventually left because his style of music was a bit too contemporary for the saints. I think of others who for one reason or another are made to feel invisible. A handshake and a "Happy Sabbath" at the door do not suffice. One of the best "churches" I ever attended was in my own house. We called it a Bible Study, but it was a meal, singing, and Bible Study. A number of times over the years I heard my friends say, "This is my church." They went to church on Sabbath, but they felt loved at my house (unlike church at the time).

actually I would like to do away with some of the Theologians.. New International Version For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-18.htm

God explicitly told the ex-slaves being brought out of Egypt not to eat unclean meat. Those health laws were for their own good. If we do not follow them today, we suffer the consequences in this life. This was a hot subject among the founders of Adventism. If we are going to take the health laws as still binding, we also need to take all the laws of Moses as still binding - with the exception of the sacrificial system pointing to Christ's sacrifice. Is it sinful for a man to trim the edges of his beard? Can a woman dress like a man (better get rid of those jeans, ladies)? There are all sorts of laws in the books of Moses that most all theologians agree no long apply to us today. So why do we (Adventists) hang onto the clean and unclean meat distinction? For health reasons. We understand those laws were given for health reasons. God desires for us to be healthy and prosper. I don't know what the ancient Israelites knew or didn't know. They may have known those laws were for health reasons. I know that Jesus taught what was put in the mouth would pass through the body and that sin came from the heart. We do not become sinful by what we put into our bodies. Sin is a heart problem. Perhaps the Israelites did know that but it was lost so Jesus had to give them a refresher course. We need to be careful not to get hung up on issues like diet in the same way this elder became hung up on the issue of jewelry. He needed to go back to his church manual and read what the reasons for disciplining a member are. Wearing jewelry is not an offense the merits church discipline. Too many times were are more worried about our neighbor sweeping off their doorstep than by the piles of dust accumulating on our own. If you bought those earings from Avon or Wal-Mart, he probably paid more for his belt buckle than you did for the ear rings. The health message is a fantastic message when it is presented right. When we tell people God says you can't eat this, this and that. They recoil and feel that God is some sort of killjoy. Last evening I met a guy I am working with to help break his drug addiction. We met at Starbucks. I ordered a tomato and cheese sandwich. That led to a discussion about vegetarianism and healthful living. When asked if I was a vegetarian, I responded that I try to be a pescatarian but on occasion, if the menu doesn't have enough options, I will eat meat. "Wow!" he responded. "So you are not like all those judgmental vegetarians looking down on meat-eaters." I explained the health benefits of eating vegetarian and also eating whole grain foods instead of processed ones. He got the feeling that the God I worshiped wasn't one looking down from heaven and looking to strike me down if a bacon bit found its way onto my garden salad. He got the feeling that my God cared not only for my soul and where I would spend eternity but about my present life and if I was healthy.

I was baptized as an SDA in 1977. In a certain sense, I will always be an SDA. That being said, if I were ever disfellowshipped for some reason, I would still attend an SDA church. The membership is irrelevant to me. That being said, I have no problem attending other churches. I attend Charismatic churches when I feel like in need a Holy Spirit refill. I attend Catholic Churches when I'm with my predominantly Catholic families. I know certain priests as friends rather than clergy. I attend by daughter's non-denominational (basically Baptist) church where her husband is the pastor. Outside of the fact that we meet on Saturday morning and the vegetarian breakfast we serve, one would never know they were in an SDA Church if they were to visit. We meet at the Comedy Club in Denver ( "a funny place to go to church"), there is no mention of EGW, and no offering pleas (yet we are well funded by people who attend). Visitors don't even know who the pastor is because our attitude is that we are all pastors. It's probably also that we don't have an assigned pastor; but we do quite well just taking turns leading out in the message - one book of the Bible at a time. It's great not to be forced into a box when worshiping Yahweh!

On rare occasions, I have had people come to me and ask to be baptized but none of them wanted to join, or even attend, a SDA church. In all of those cases I have discussed with them what they wanted and why. In every case I have declined to baptize them. My reason for such, as I explained to them was based upon the Biblical injunction for Christians to associate together in worship on a regular basis. I then encouraged them to search out a congregation (and denomination) that they wanted to worship with on a regular basis, ask that pastor to baptize them and to join that congregation (denomination). However, such just might not work in the society in which we live today. The last time I witnessed a person being baptized by a SDA pastor, that person did not want to join the SDA denomination. However, that person attended every week and participated, regularly, in the activities of that SDA congregation. In addition, there are actual situations where it is not possible for a person who wants to realistically attend and/or participate in the congregation. Such may include: * People who are serving time in prison. * U. S. military who are serving overseas and realistically cannot attend a SDA church in that area. NOTE: I have baptized such. But, I was able to arrange for the person to join a congregation in that country. In one case it was South Korea. * Hospital chaplains who are not able to associate with a local congregation. All of the above are real situations that SDA clergy may face today. People who are knowledgeable of SDA policy might point out that the SDA denomination has two (2) different policies that are supposed to cover such cases. Each policy would allow baptism and provide for formal membership in the denomination and in a formal congregation. Well folks, regardless of such policy, in the times in which we now live, such does not always work.