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Acorn – England Acorns are considered to be lucky, especially in England. The belief in the happiness of the Celtic druids can be traced back. According to stories, the Druids had carried oak leaves and dried acorns during the Norman conquest, because they considered them to be sacred and to have the luck on their side. Today acorns are regarded as a symbol of happiness, prosperity and strength. Bambus – China In China, he is considered to be one of the oldest fortune-tellers: the lucky bamboo. It symbolizes happiness, money and success and is happily given away in China for birthdays, weddings or business openings. In addition, the "Lucky Bamboo" is also used in Feng Shui, because it favors growth, strength, vitality and vital energy. Therefore, one can hope for a particularly good luck by placing the bamboo in the southeast area of the apartment. Elefants – Indien Elephants are seen all over the world as a symbol of happiness, intelligence, wisdom, strength and longevity. Especially in the Hindu-influenced India, they are regarded as lucky. For there, the god Ganesha possesses an elephant head and is responsible for success and happiness. Whether wood or marble, on patterned fabrics, on wall rugs or as amulets and ornaments, the elephants meet us in India everywhere. It should be richly decorated and adorned. As a statue, the elephant is particularly lucky when he carries his trunk high - as elephants welcome. Maneki-neko – Japan Probably hardly anyone has seen this fortune-maker anywhere. Maneki-neko, also known as waving cat, is a popular lucky cat in the form of a cat sitting upright. The raised right paw symbolizes happiness and health, but the left paw is raised, should be attracted to clientele. Because the cat is preferred in entrances of shops in shopping malls, restaurants or lotteries. At exhibitions and market places, the cat is to provide financial and business happiness. In the private household, she is happily placed to bring prosperity and keep away misfortune. Nazar boncuk – Türkei A "Nazar boncuk" (Nazar-pearl) is an eye-shaped, blue amulet, which is widely used in Turkey. The term originally comes from the Arabic expression "Nazar" and means "Blick" (among other things). According to this, the amulet is supposed to ward off the "evil eye" and is therefore also regarded as a fortune-teller. According to popular belief, people with the evil eye can harm other people. Nazar boncuks are to protect everything. Thus, they are often attached to clothes, especially by small children, hanging on the interior mirrors of cars or on entrance doors of houses or serving as decorations on the key pendant. Bats – China, Bali In European cultures, bats are considered rather sinister. But in China it is believed that especially red bats teach the devil the fear. For this reason the red bat is a symbol of long life and happiness. Besides, the Chinese character sounds just like that for happiness. Also in Bali, red bats are considered lucky symbols and sacred. There they are even venerated in special temples. Therefore, jewelry, amulets or trailers with bat motifs are often given away in these countries as lucky charms. Also as ornaments, as carvings on wooden doors or on fabrics embroidered one encounters the bat. Equipped with corresponding amulets, you are well protected, especially disaster and happiness and joy. Skarabäus – Ägypten Many people would feel disgusted at the sight of this lucky bearer: the scarab. A beetle that had a great significance many centuries ago. It is the symbol of life and resurrection, and thus represents a kind of fortune-teller. Its function as a fortune-bearer and also as a symbol of protection dates back to the flood period in ancient Egypt. At that time, the population believed that scarabs were able to recognize the important "Nile high water" at an early stage. The beetles moved away from the water and went into the houses of the Egyptians. Because of the constant drought, they were very happy about it and knew that the long-awaited flood that they needed for their harvest would finally come. Today, as a fortune-teller, jewelry and amulets are worn there in the form, color and style of a scarab. carp scales – Tschechien, Slowakei In the Czech Republic and Slovakia, the carp is not only a delicacy for the turn of the year, but also a lucky winner. If you keep a carp scoop in your purse, you will be waving rich money in the new year. Even in the Stone Age, hunters pushed a shed as a fortune-maker behind the loincloth. Also in China, the carp dish is a New Year's feast. Here the fish wealth promises, because the Chinese pronunciation of the words "fish" and "excess" is almost identical. Hand of Fatima – Islamisch Lands In Islamic countries, the so-called hand of Fatima is a popular fortune-teller. On the one hand, the sacred hand with its unique form is regarded as a distance gesture and, like the Turkish Nazar pearl, is supposed to ward off the "evil eye". On the other hand, it is the symbol of strength and happiness as a "blessing hand". The name "Fatima" goes back to Fatima, the youngest daughter of the Prophet Muhammad. This lucky charm can also be found in Islamic culture on many doors where it is used for protection. The Fatima hand nowadays is also encountered in many other forms: as a decoration, a wall decoration, an accessory or even a tattoo, it is a very popular symbol of protection and happiness.

With internet, You Tube, Television, intercontinental travel so available, traveling to a site to worship together seems unnecessary. Some have reduced to 1 day, some one weekend. When I was younger only the largest cities had really good speakers besides the pastor of each church. Camp meeting would bring in evangelists and great orators who would make it 'can't miss' occasion. What is your experience?

In my opinion - "soul-sleep" and with it, the understanding that the "second death" is annihilation. Why? Because believing that Yahweh would allow a human being He has created to exist in unending conscious torment, engenders such FEAR, that trust and love are impossible. I could not love someone I believed capable of torturing me for 5 minutes - much less for eternity. No one can pray to God as to a Father, if she believes that He may consign her to unending torment.

The other "gods" of the OT were not just mere graven images. Those "images" represented the real supernatural beings (sons of God) who rebelled against the true God and became principalities over other countries. God gave a bunch of commandments, but it seems to me that the one on which He was a stickler was idolatry. He frequently put up with adultery, fornication, stealing, murder, revenge, lying, cheating, and deception; but idolatry consistently brought domination over Israel. On at least one occasion in Judges,, God told the Israelites to call upon the the pagan gods they had patronized to deliver them. It didn't happen. So to me, unwavering faith and unwavering loyalty to the God of heaven - YHVH, Yahweh, Jehovah - is an absolute requirement for salvation.

Unless we see them all together, we forget how many times Jesus and his disciples affirmed that He was "sent" by His Father. 1 John 4:14 “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.” John 5:30 [Christ] “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:23, John 5:37). John 5:37 [Christ] “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 8:16). John 6:39 [Christ] “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” John 6:44 [Christ] “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:57 [Christ] “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.” John 8:16 [Christ] “And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.” John 8:29 [Christ] “And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” John 8:42 “Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.’” John 10:36 [Christ] “Do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’” John 12:49 “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.” John 17:21 [Jesus last prayer to His Father] “ ... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.” John 17:25 “O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.” John 20:21 “So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” Anything repeated this many times in Scripture, I think cannot be misunderstood. Jesus was SENT by His divine Father. I see only TWO divine beings in these texts. God the Father was the God OF Jesus Christ. John 20:17 “Jesus said to her, ‘Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’” Romans 15:6 “ ... that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 11:3 “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” 2 Corinthians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,” 2 Corinthians 11:31 “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.” Ephesians 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,” Ephesians 1:17 “ ... that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,” Colossians 1:3 “We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,” 1 Peter 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” Revelation 1:6 “ ... and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.” Revelation 3:12 “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.” Again - I see only TWO divine beings - Jesus and His Father. Again - this is repeated many, many times, by Jesus and by Paul.

It comes down to what motivates one to even want to show up at a camp meeting. We need to analyse what rewards one has being a participant or spectator. 1. We see again loved ones who moved away from our district 2. We give our kids exposure to fun and folic with unknown sda kids (who might even teach them privately about illicit pleasures) 3. The teen-agers in their assembly tent gets to listen to various bands banging on the drums as loud as they wish 4. The feel of SDA family being a larger unit than the local church helps promote a broader perspective 5. Now is yet another chance to give money for "whatever" the management is asking for 6. One might even listen to an inspirational devotional sermon (if you're lucky) 7. Packing up the family for the long trip to the campgrounds seems more holy and indeed more economical then a cruise-ship trip to the Bahamas 8. After all, the majority of SDA's are conditioned into a 'sheep-herd mentality'. They go with the flow and gather where gatherings are gathered.

No, each one needs to be watched for there own merits!!

As I read through this thread I noticed that the trinitarian side has made a few good points and supported those with New Testament passages that attribute to the Holy Spirit actions that we associate with the personality of a distinct person -- hearing, speaking, interceding, teaching, etc. And because almost all of us grew up as trinitarians, it seems natural to understand those passages as proof that the Holy Spirit is a distinct personality. However, the New Testament was not written to trinitarians nor by trinitarians. The New Testament understanding of the Holy Spirit would have come from what the Old Testament says about the "breath" or "wind" of God, which our trinitarian translators have rendered into English as the "Spirit of God" (which implies personality, where the original language does not). In the Old Testament the breath or wind of YHWH is an attribute of YHWH himself, just like all the other personal attributes of God, such as His hand, face, voice, lips, and arm. The Old Testament uses the "breath" (or Spirit) of God interchangeably with YHWH himself. So when the Old Testament says that something was done by the "breath" (or Spirit) of God, the Israelites and the Jews understood it as something done by YHWH himself. When the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost it was accompanied by the sound of a mighty breath or wind. So it makes sense that the New Testament writers also used words meaning "holy wind" or "holy breath" for the Holy Spirit, as did the translators of the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) a few centuries earlier. While the Greek words do not imply a personal being, the English words "Holy Spirit" do imply a personal being. One of the problems with the trinitarian doctrine is that it alters the gospel into something that is profane and repulsive to those who live by the Word of YHWH given in the Old Testament as Jesus did. Jesus taught that the greatest commandment was, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." (Mark 12:29-30) which Jesus quoted from Deut. 6:4-5. The modern Christian emphasis on the trinitarian doctrine changes that to , "The Lord our God, the Lord is three", which is something that cannot be accepted by faithful Israelites and Jews. The noble Bereans would never have been able to confirm that teaching in the Old Testament Scriptures that they searched daily to see whether Paul's Gospel was true, (Acts 17:10) so trinitarianism was evidently not part of the gospel taught by Paul. Paul wrote that his Gospel was for "the Jew first" (Romans 1:16). The trinitarian gospel is definitely not for the Jew first, so it seems to be a different gospel than the one that Paul taught.

Does this mean - in your opinion - that we SHOULD NOT voice different points of view? Is it a good thing - or a bad thing, to discuss different points of view? On the one hand, we can strengthen our ability to voice our view, as we come back with answers to objections voiced by others. On the other hand, parties may be swayed by our arguments, and may embrace what turns out to be falsehood. IF persons feel it is dangerous (it risks confusing others) to voice points of view that differ from their congregation, or their church leadership, their teachers or even their recognized "prophet" - then we should all abandon this forum (at least the Theological Forum). Let CA become just a social discourse, where members strengthen one another in faith, but do not rock the SDA boat.

The implication is that persons who disagree with your view are somehow resisting the plain revelation of God. The Scriptures may SEEM "quite clear on this subject" to you, but they seem equally clear to others like myself, who do not share your view. I do not accuse you of being "stiff necked" as the Ancient Israelites were, resisting the Holy Spirit. I believe your stated views are sincerely held. Can we not treat each other with respect? I post the references, and then I try to explain what they say to me, in as few words as possible. That's all. I do NOT then say things like "this is absolutely clear", implying that anyone who disagrees is just blind, stupid, or deliberately resisting God.

Jesus claimed the gift. The Spirit WAS "the gift". If I claimed "the gift" of speaking in tongues, and then I began to speak in another language, you would not say that another person was speaking the new language. Just so, when Jesus was gifted with the power to be omnipresent once again, His presence with and in His disciples, was not another divine person. In Jesus' last prayer to His Father, He prayed, "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, AS You Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. . . . I in them, and You in Me." HOW was the Father "in" Christ? God the Father was "with" Christ and "in" Christ, because God the Father IS SPIRIT. He is omnipresent. He is not confined to the heavenly realm. And before He "emptied Himself" of divine powers, God's son was also omnipresent. After Jesus returned to Heaven, and was "glorified", this power to be omnipresent was return to Him, and He poured His presence upon His waiting disciples. "This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter." {Lt7-1891} "We want the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ. If we commune with God, we shall have strength and grace and efficiency." {Lt66-1894} If you are going to quote Ellen White, then be prepared to consider everything she said on the subject. Jesus poured out the gift. That fits with Matthew 3:11 "I [John] indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He [Christ] who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." QUESTION: How could one divine being "baptize with" another divine being?

If the Scriptures were "quite clear on this subject" then logically, debates would NOT "have run on for centuries over this topic".

The Bible does not describe "the holy Spirit" as a "Third Person". Yes - the Bible describes things that the Spirit would do/ or does. It just does not tell us WHO or WHAT the Spirit is - at least not directly. We have to infer it. I personally believe the Spirit IS "the last Adam". He did after all, "become a life giving spirit" (I Cor 15:45). And "the last Adam" IS Christ Jesus. So Jesus is the one who does all those things. Jesus is the one who takes "the things that the Father has" and declares them to us (John 16:15). Jesus is the one who does not speak on His own authority (John 12:49, Jn 14:10). He speaks those things which His Father has given Him, to convey to us. Jesus tells us about things to come. The messages to the 7 churches ARE His words. Read the messages. This is Christ speaking! Jesus intercedes for us - no one else. "There is ONE mediator" (I Tim. 2:5). Jesus helps us in our weakness. He said, "I am with you always" (Matthew 28:20). Jesus said "I know My sheep". How could He "know" them, except He searches our hearts? Jesus gives us rest. Matthew 11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." OLD TESTAMENT Exodus 33:14 And He said, "My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest." Why would these words be less true today? WHO spoke these words? Answer: The pre-incarnate Son of God. 1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. Christ IS that "spiritual drink". John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you,`Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." "the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified". Don't these words suggest that Christ's glorification, involved restoring to Him the power, and the omnipresence, that He had with the Father before the world was? In other words - it involved making Christ the "life giving spirit".

You are good at making accusations of a great number of people.....however with little substance. Hoping to make it stick against the barn wall? Enjoy yourself.

That well known lefty policy: "believes in the importance of sending troops into foreign countries in order to maintain order therein". I think you'll find the rest of the world started opposing Hitler when he annexed Poland, not when it came out what was happening in the concentration camps. Hitler was to the left on some issues and to the right on others. American-supported Pinochet was on the right on almost everything and was a horrendous dictator. Does that invalidate any rightwing issues? Guilt by association is no argument at all against specific policies.