Leaderboard

" He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time." (Dan. 7:25) "He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people." (Dan. 8:24) "The invader will do as he pleases; no one will be able to stand against him. He will establish himself in the Beautiful Land and will have the power to destroy it." (Dan. 11:16) "When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” (Dan. 12:7) "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been" (Rev. 6:9-11) "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." (Rev 12:17) "The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them." (Rev. 13: 5-7) " The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."(Rev 13:15-17) Is that a good start?

Welcome! May you find peace with God and with your fellow man as you continue your journey.

I thought that he hadn't been doing well. Now he rests.

Wanderer, Thank you for that good summary of your view on this topic. I respect your view, even if I do not agree with it. And I do not believe anyone will be "lost" because they believe, or do not believe, that "the Holy Spirit" is a third divine being. Jesus will make it all plain someday. To my mind, the importance of my view is because it supports Jesus teaching that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son." If God is not a "He" - but rather is a "They", then this verse is not literally true. It's just what seems to be true. I AGREE that the Holy Spirit "is a personal being". That's because I believe The Holy Spirit IS God our Father. Jesus said, "God is Spirit." HE is the original un-created "spirit of life" - the SOURCE of all life. Jesus taught us to call HIM "Father". A second divine being was begotten from the first. We call Him "the Son of God" because He was begotten from God the Father. God actually BECAME a Father, when He beget His Son. In your view, this is not true. Jesus was 1/3 of a trio of co-equal, co-eternal divine beings, and one of them took the role of "son", while another took the role of Father, and another the role of invisible "spirit". When Jesus returned to Heaven, the Father "glorified" Him. This is what Jesus had prayed for. His last prayer is ADDRESSED TO His "Father". Jesus asked His Father to glorify Him. He did not ask a third being. And the Father promised to glorify His Son. The Father poured Himself through His Son - to us. This is how the Father "sent forth the spirit OF His Son into our hearts". This is how Jesus also "was made a life giving spirit" (1Cor 15:45). Jesus said, "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine, therefore I said that He will take of what is mine." Jesus equated "what is Mine" with "all that the Father has". That means the Father would take of what was His own. This was not a third being, taking of what belonged to Jesus. No. This is the Father taking of Himself. Everywhere we see "the Spirit" acting in a personal way - like a person. We see this because God the Father IS a "personal being". Perhaps the difference between blasphemy against "the Son of Man" and blasphemy against God, is that one is blasphemy against the Son and the other is blasphemy against God Himself. I know the debate on this issue, will never be resolved one way or the other, but it has been stimulating and I appreciate your input very much. I especially appreciate that you do not draw your "proofs" from the writings of Ellen White - just from the Bible. RC

Revelation 6:17 to 7:15 6:17 "for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to damage earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the people of Israel: . . . . . . Do you see a break here? One group is the 144,000 and the next group is "the great multitude". One group is from the tribes of Israel, and the other is "from every nation". 7:9 "After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands. 10 They cried out in a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 singing, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen." 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, robed in white, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you are the one that knows." Then he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple, and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them." (NRS) The 144,000 may be part of the greater "multitude" but the "great multitude" are not the 144,000.

I believe you LHC. But how do you "know" that the Spirit Who led you was a third divine being. You may have been drawn to Christ by God the Father. Jesus did say that's how it works. Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless My Father draws them." Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. (Rev 3:20 NKJ)

To me, and I have said this before, I ask the question who is man who he thinks he can define God using human words, a concept that is bigger than we can think. It is like the smartest ant telling outer ants how a super computer works. He can only use ant words and concepts. It is called the mystery for a purpose. It is like how can God always be? That makes our mind go blank as it fails to comprehend.

Those of us who hold minority or unpopular viewpoints (at least here on CA), tend to be a little "sensitive" to criticism. I include myself. I'm working on my sensitivity. We all realize that how you read or understand a text, can be highly dependent upon your current understanding. If one believes that "the Holy Spirit" is a third being who can act independently of God the Father and Christ the Son, then he will "see" that third being all through the NT. And if one believes that "the Spirit" is God the Father, or some aspect of Him (like His breath, or His extended presence) then that is what she will "see". That means most texts cannot be "proof texts". Take John 14:21 for instance. "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Non-Trinitarians see only Jesus (the speaker) and God His Father in this text. Jesus is the one who will "manifest" Himself. Trinitarians "see" the Holy Spirit also, because they believe that Jesus is still only human, and cannot be omnipresent to "manifest" Himself, without the help of another divine being - the Holy Spirit, "Who" comes to us - manifesting as Jesus. Trinitarians believe "the Spirit of His Son" is not actually Jesus (or some aspect of Jesus), but rather is the third divine being - "Who" comes to us representing Jesus. I have a hard time with that understanding, because it puts God between man and Christ, rather than just Christ between God and man.

That sounds like Peter attributed the "such a voice" to God the Father rather than to the Holy Spirit. Not so. The text says the voice came from heaven. It didn't say the voice came from the dove.