Leaderboard

I then posted the folowing: Trevor L, I would agree with your comment at to the probably differences between Islam as practiced in Pakistan and in Afghanistan. I would agree as that was exactly the point that I was attempting to make. As a retired Army Chaplain I feel a need to comment on your comments as to SDAs and the military: The Historical, early SDA position: * In the early days of our developing denomination, the government initiated a system by which males could be inducted into military service, but they could be released from that mandatory service by payment of a $300 fee. * Our developing denomination generally attempted to raise the $300 fee that released the person from military service. * There was a 2-fold reason for the attempt to raise that fee: 1) It was generally believed that military service violated both the commandment not to kill and the Sabbath commandment. [NOTE: The Sabbath issue was the same as faced by the Jews in the Intertestamental period.] 2) Our developing denomination needed the leadership of those males who would have otherwise been forced into military service. * In those early days, while we only existed in the United States, that was an easy situation. The Government allowed for non-service. * The problems arose when in our missionary growth, we expanded into other countries which did not allow for non-participation in military service. * An example of this is found in the historical writings of our Church: Two (2) men who worked in publishing SDA books were called up for required military service by their government. EGW commented on this loss of their needed services. But, she then went on to advocate the support that we should give then as a Church while they were doing their duty. This incident has been a major influence for the SDA denomination today not taking the position that we should prohibit military service. * Further, we here in the U.S. may not realize the positon that some of the people have faced in the past. Serving in a country that I will not name, I once had a male citizen of that country walk into my office. He removed his shirt and showed me the scars on his back due to the beatings that he had taken due to the religious position he had taken related to military service for his country. The present SDA position: * Three major positions exist today as to military service by our membership: 1) Many SDA members believe in full service in any capacity with no limitations. 2) Some of our members reject all military service with no participation at all. 3) Other members believe in serving in a limited non-combatant capacity. * The official position of the SDA Church is two-fold: 1) The SDA Church (congregation) is to provide pastoral care and support for their members take any of the three positions that I have listed above. They are not to be disciplined for taking any of those positions. 2) It is recommended that SDAs take position # 3, but it is a recommendation and not a requirement. * Based upon my experience, in the 20 years that I served, There have been large numbers of people who while related to the SDA Church, took position # 1. * However, growing numbers of people, as I see it, advocate position # 2. On a personal Basis: * I would often have people come to me for advice as to whether or not they could serve in the military. I would ask them about their beliefs and understandings of Biblical teachings. I would tell them that if they held to traditional SDA teachings, they could not serve and maintain those teachings in most positions in the military. * I would tell them that the might be able to serve in a medical position and that they could serve in a chaplain position which did not include serving as a Chaplain's Assistant. * I would also tell them that if they held to traditional beliefs it would be harder for them, most of the time, to serve in a Reserve component, than it would be to serve on active duty although I would not recommend that. * As to military chaplains: 1) All military chaplains serve with the permission of their denomination, which for me was SDA. 2) They cannot become a military chaplain absent the permission of their denomination. 3) Their denomination has the legal right to remove them from military service, as long as they are not under criminal investigation and are not hospitalized, for any reason and the individual so removed has no legal recourse outside of their denomination. Chaplains so removed will likely be removed within a 14 day time-line, which is very quick for the government to act. 4) The SDA Church has on a number of occasions decided to remove their clergy from the U.S. military. Yes this has included someone under criminal investigation as the military has some strange laws which might not apply in civilian life. In some of those cases the SDA Church has reached an agreement with the chaplain involved by which the chaplain resigned and left military service and on other occasions, the SDA Church has used the provisions of law and policy to remove a military chaplain. 5) My military service includes: 1) Two (2) years of active duty as an enlisted person, brought in under the draft as a conscientious objector. 2) Eighteen (18) service as a commissioned officer and a chaplain on active duty. 3) Additional service as a chaplain in the National Guard and in a Reserve unit. At all times, except as a drafted enlisted person, I served only with the permission of the SDA Church and the Church had the power to remove me. Margie: "I was writing and posting this comment at the same time you posted your comment. As your was shorter than mine, you got posted first. In any case, welcome to this discussion.

WORTH READING AGAIN & AGAIN. Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don't see things the way you do. And don't jump all over them every time they do or say something you don't agree with - even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department. Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message

wondering if anyone has noticed the 'universalism' picture she paints throughout the DA?

you have a great outlook on life and your walk with God is such a encouragment to the wayfarer. Thanks for sharing that part of your journey. Peace and Love is what Jesus is the Prince of. You found it! david

So, for anyone experiencing in some way that same belief more or less, i would love to share some of what God has shown me over the past 10 years of my awakening. That is my only intention here, to possibly lighten the burden of guilt and fear that you might be living which has created a not so peaceful life. I'm a work in progress still, not a holier than thou guy. So, with what i posted hours ago from DA first page of first chapter about Jesus coming to this earth to 'reveal' God to 'angels' as well as men, and infact to 'all beings in the universe', which begged the question ''what could the angels, Lucifer being one of them, need to see about God that they obviously 'couldnt' see while in heaven? ok, God led me to a very very interesting statement, related to this DA statement, it's found in The Signs of the Times, December 30, 1889. (oh btw, God wispered to me that I should read everything very very slowly, i mean thoughtfully and slowly and consider every word printed. I suggest this for you too). : " ...The angels scribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are NOT SECURE EXCEPT by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is thru the EFFICACY OF THE CROSS that the angels of heaven are GUARDED FROM APOSTASY. WITHOUT THE CROSS THEY WOULD BE NO MORE SECURE AGAINST EVIL THAN WERE THE ANGELS BEFORE THE FALL OF SATAN. Angelic" ponder it for a while, let God speak. I'll continue in the next post with another DA statement. God bless you.

What a beautiful mind you have. This is where God has led me too. God knew my respect for EGW and bible and my analytical mind (growing up with a SDA evangelist mother who preached law and sabbath to everyone) and being on the restrictive end of a wonderful mom and dad when it came to the sabbath hours and especially the Papacy (what another story). God knew what i needed to break free of that mindset, and He used ''behold your God'' by Fred Wright, which led me the Desire of Ages, and there is where God changed my paradigm concerning His behavior and Character and 'universal' plan for mankind. I love sharing what He opened to me and how He brought questions and thoughts to my mind which dispelled the 'bully' concept i had of God. Here is a bit of what my dilemma was on how i visioned God (and appears to be the SDA message still) (i'm still a church going SDA, have way too many friends that still want my friendship and I theirs, every sabbath). A little story. God knocks on a young mans heart, the young man asks 'who is it?', God replies 'it's God, your creator'. The man asks 'what would you like'? God replies 'I like for you to let me in'. 'why' responds the young man. 'So I can save you' replies God. 'From what?' says the young man. 'From what I'm going to do to you if you dont let me in'. when we tell the world they need to accept Jesus as their Lord and savior, they need to be covered by his blood and accept His gift of grace, OR ELSE they will be cast into a lake of fire , then we have just painted the picture depicted in that story. It's the same as holding a gun to their head and demanding obedience. I believed this with all my heart. Not now tho. peace

I appreciate this insight. I didn’t run across the “buy-out” amount when I was going through the links I shared in my post. I find it really helpful in figuring out what God is looking from us in terms of unity by going back in history and see how issues like this impact our church. I like seeing that we as a church reach a consensus together freely of our own wills rather than being instructed by the church leaders. Granted many of us turn to leaders for instruction but ultimately each one of us make our own decisions. And often those decisions vary, as shown in the standpoints Greg listed in the past and present. Surely, to those outside the church our denomination is rife with controversy but there is much value in this exploration of options and learning from our mistakes and norming with each other. Together we study, together we discuss, and together we learn. Along the way are many lessons on how to unite as a single body of believers. This has a greater emphasis on free will rather than a single body of prophets instructing us on requirements to follow. On another point to which I apologize if it changes the direction of this discussion once again, I find it interesting that Ellen White spoke to the petition presented by church members to the church in Colorado and how it showed a lack of faith on their part and drew too much unnecessary attention to sabbath keepers. This reminds me of Jesus and His instruction to the leprous man who healed him to be quiet (Mark 1:41-45). Perhaps we need to learn more about depending on the Word of God to show us the action He wants from us and trusting that God will fight for us.

Folks: I consider this to be an important subject, that has gone in a different direction from the original post. Therefore, I am going to transfer these comments to a different thread. Please continue the discussion there. I have now completed the transfer. Please discuss SDAs and war in that thread and feel free to continue to discuss the Bible in this thread.

Trevor L, I would agree with your comment at to the probably differences between Islam as practiced in Pakistan and in Afghanistan. I would agree as that was exactly the point that I was attempting to make. As a retired Army Chaplain I feel a need to comment on your comments as to SDAs and the military: The Historical, early SDA position: * In the early days of our developing denomination, the government initiated a system by which males could be inducted into military service, but they could be released from that mandatory service by payment of a $300 fee. * Our developing denomination generally attempted to raise the $300 fee that released the person from military service. * There was a 2-fold reason for the attempt to raise that fee: 1) It was generally believed that military service violated both the commandment not to kill and the Sabbath commandment. [NOTE: The Sabbath issue was the same as faced by the Jews in the Intertestamental period.] 2) Our developing denomination needed the leadership of those males who would have otherwise been forced into military service. * In those early days, while we only existed in the United States, that was an easy situation. The Government allowed for non-service. * The problems arose when in our missionary growth, we expanded into other countries which did not allow for non-participation in military service. * An example of this is found in the historical writings of our Church: Two (2) men who worked in publishing SDA books were called up for required military service by their government. EGW commented on this loss of their needed services. But, she then went on to advocate the support that we should give then as a Church while they were doing their duty. This incident has been a major influence for the SDA denomination today not taking the position that we should prohibit military service. * Further, we here in the U.S. may not realize the positon that some of the people have faced in the past. Serving in a country that I will not name, I once had a male citizen of that country walk into my office. He removed his shirt and showed me the scars on his back due to the beatings that he had taken due to the religious position he had taken related to military service for his country. The present SDA position: * Three major positions exist today as to military service by our membership: 1) Many SDA members believe in full service in any capacity with no limitations. 2) Some of our members reject all military service with no participation at all. 3) Other members believe in serving in a limited non-combatant capacity. * The official position of the SDA Church is two-fold: 1) The SDA Church (congregation) is to provide pastoral care and support for their members take any of the three positions that I have listed above. They are not to be disciplined for taking any of those positions. 2) It is recommended that SDAs take position # 3, but it is a recommendation and not a requirement. * Based upon my experience, in the 20 years that I served, There have been large numbers of people who while related to the SDA Church, took position # 1. * However, growing numbers of people, as I see it, advocate position # 2. On a personal Basis: * I would often have people come to me for advice as to whether or not they could serve in the military. I would ask them about their beliefs and understandings of Biblical teachings. I would tell them that if they held to traditional SDA teachings, they could not serve and maintain those teachings in most positions in the military. * I would tell them that the might be able to serve in a medical position and that they could serve in a chaplain position which did not include serving as a Chaplain's Assistant. * I would also tell them that if they held to traditional beliefs it would be harder for them, most of the time, to serve in a Reserve component, than it would be to serve on active duty although I would not recommend that. * As to military chaplains: 1) All military chaplains serve with the permission of their denomination, which for me was SDA. 2) They cannot become a military chaplain absent the permission of their denomination. 3) Their denomination has the legal right to remove them from military service, as long as they are not under criminal investigation and are not hospitalized, for any reason and the individual so removed has no legal recourse outside of their denomination. Chaplains so removed will likely be removed within a 14 day time-line, which is very quick for the government to act. 4) The SDA Church has on a number of occasions decided to remove their clergy from the U.S. military. Yes this has included someone under criminal investigation as the military has some strange laws which might not apply in civilian life. In some of those cases the SDA Church has reached an agreement with the chaplain involved by which the chaplain resigned and left military service and on other occasions, the SDA Church has used the provisions of law and policy to remove a military chaplain. 5) My military service includes: 1) Two (2) years of active duty as an enlisted person, brought in under the draft as a conscientious objector. 2) Eighteen (18) service as a commissioned officer and a chaplain on active duty. 3) Additional service as a chaplain in the National Guard and in a Reserve unit. At all times, except as a drafted enlisted person, I served only with the permission of the SDA Church and the Church had the power to remove me. Margie: "I was writing and posting this comment at the same time you posted your comment. As your was shorter than mine, you got posted first. In any case, welcome to this discussion.

Greetings The Wanderer, I find no trouble in calling the following the 7th Millennium: Revelation 20:6 (KJV): Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Do you need further information to explain why the start of this is considered by many to be somewhere about 6000 years after the creation? Kind regards Trevor

well , its not only the DA, she makes statements in other books and periodicals that lead one to consider the implications, which many times leads to a universalism conclusion. So, let me begin with a really fascinating 'thought provoking' statement she makes in the first page of chapter 1 of the DA. (by the way, i was not into spelling or punctuation or when being educated so forgive me if things are not correct as i make my comments). So page 1 of 1st chapter; speaking of the 'glory of God' she says ''It was to manifest this glory that He came to our world. TO this sin darkened earth He came to reveal the light of Gods love..." continuing next paragraph: "By coming to dwell with us, Jesus was to reveal God both to men and to angels. " (interesting dont you think? angels?) . again: "But no alone for His earthborn children was this revelation given. Our little world is the lesson book of the universe. Gods wonderful purpose of grace, the mystery of redeeming love, is the theme into which 'angels desire to look' and it will be their study throughout endless ages. Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song." So, Jesus came to this earth to ''reveal'' God to the angels? (among others). What angels needed to see something about God they were not exposed to in heaven? and, whatever it was , obviously couldnt be revealed by Jesus while in heaven, true? thus the reason he came to this earth. So, within this 2nd paragraph she says this; ''I hav declared unto them thy name, 'merciful and gracious,long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,'' Gods 'characteristics' wouldnt you say? Then she says ''not alone for His earthborn children was this revelation given." So, GOds charachteristics of ''mercy, goodness, truth, garacious, long-suffering'' is what Jesus came to this earth to ''reveal'' to both ''men and angels and all the unfallen beings''. So, the angels decision to stay loyal to Jesus or to side with Lucifer was based on what? wasnt there many things about God they didnt know about? mainly ''goodness, truth etc etc''? She makes it pretty obvious from this beginning statement that Jesus had to come to this earth to 'enlighten' the universe about God. Which leads me to believe that the angels made thier individual decisions to side with GOd or Lucifer on incomplete information, or knowledge about God. Which leads me to imagine a very very confusing time in heaven, and rightly so. The character of God had not be demonstrated to either group, or to the other worlds. And if both groups of angels didnt know the knowledge about God that Jesus came to reveal, that would mean that neither did Lucifer, true? becuase he was the 'light bearer' no? Whatever he knew about God he delivered or defused among the heaevnly host. So, obviously he was in the dark concerning Gods 'character' of ''truth, mercy, long suffering, graciousness''. Jesus came to this earth, left his glory up there, left his father and mother, and became a lowly human, to reveal some very important knowledge about God to Lucifer (and all the other angles. Interesting isnt it? God bless

There are many aspects to the theology known as Universalism. Your statement is so broad that it is not possible to really understand what you are saying.

I am finished. See if it works. I will open this thread for comment. Why have I done this? I have an educational background which includes teaching graduate students. The book that I am using to learn to program Python includes exercises at that the end of the chapter that test whether or not the principles of the chapter have been learned. I decided it would be fun to test my understanding of the content of chapter 1 by writing a program thanking Stan. In addition, I wanted to test my ability to teach others how to put such a program on their computer. So, if any of you actually download the Python program and successfully follow my instructions, I have been successful. If you are unable to do so, I will not to further develop my skills. NOTE: Learning is often built on failure and attempting again. My next move will be to study chapter 2, and see what I can learn from it. Have fun. I have had fun.

NOTE: I have been delayed due to time constraints, it being Christmas and in addition, a small factor that I am going to have to work out in writing the instructions. We had nine (9) people at our Christmas table.

How does God do that? When they read the Bible, they take it that God is speaking to them directly. When they pray, they listen for God to speak to them directly. Long time no hear from GayatfootofCross I hope all is well with you.