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Hobie, I will reflect on your recent post: * Again, I appreciate your oppeness in sharing. * You come across to me as having a real struggle with being judgmental of others. I believe that God can help you as you work on this issue in your life. But, I wonder how judgmental you would be of me if you knew me personally? * SDA congregations do differ. Most cannot nurture every person. It seems to me that you have mostly experienced congregations in which you are not likely to grow spiritually. I hope that you can find one in which you can grow. * Music: I suspect that you would be surprised at the multiple issues that people raise about music. In a seminary class IS too a million year ago I learned that many well known Christian hymns traced their tunes back to drinking songs sung in bars. Also, in the Seminary I learned of a well-known elected General Conference official who, when traveling to certain countries would be asked not to bring a specific musical instrument with him, as SDA members in that country did not allow that instrument to be played in a SDA church. I learned of musical instruments that were not considered appropriate in U.S. SDA congregations that were an important part of SDA worship in other countries. Keep in mind that we are an immigrant nation and the worship practices in other countries has entered services in the U.S. Hobie, I could go on and list more. But, I should stop at some place. The bottom line is that as far as the tune itself is concerned, the SDA Church has not been able to develop a standard that can be applied in all nations of the world. * The SDA denomination is divided today over whether membership should be restricted to people who have reached a specific level of adherence to doctrine and life practice; or whether it should be open to most people who commit to being on spiritual journey of learning and growing. I am reminded of my first Sabbath worshiping in another country. I had considered that country to be quite conservative in their approach to Adventism. In truth, I was correct. But, on that day, I was astounded by a baptism that I witnessed that day. It was clear that this adult couple had not journeyed far into the Adventist experience and culture. [NOTE: The Conference President was the pastor of that congregation.] But, there was a factor that I had not understood that Sabbath day. The congregation continued to nurture and grow that couple over the months that followed. They were not left on their own. Within the time that I worshiped in that congregation, the couple made many changes in their lies. Well, at some point I must stop in reflecting on your post. It troubles me and on that I will stop for now.

"You carry matters to extremes and do harm to your own soul and to the truth. YOU MAKE THE TRUTH REPULSIVE AND CAUSE SOULS TO BE AFRAID OF IT. Let love soften your words and give tone to your actions, and you will find a change in those with whom you associate. There will be peace, union, and harmony, instead of strife, jealousy, and discord. Let love and tenderness be exercised, . . . and you will receive a blessing." {2T 439.1}

Greetings 8thdaypriest, Jesus submitted to baptism as it symbolised his own death and resurrection, and also in so submitting he was endorsing what this death and resurrection taught. Part of the teaching of John the Baptist was: Isaiah 40:6-8 (KJV): 6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Jesus, in submitting to baptism, was acknowledging that he was mortal, subject to death, because of Adam’s transgression. He had inherited flesh and blood from Adam through Mary his mother, and in submitting he acknowledged God’s righteousness in involving all of Adam’s descendants to suffer and die. But also revealed in Christ was the Word of God, the character of the only begotten Son of God, full of grace and truth. Because he did no sin, and because He was this fullness of the Divine character, grace and truth, and because of God’s love and fellowship with him, the grave could not hold him, and the Word of God was raised from the dead, to stand for ever. When we believe and are baptised into the death and resurrection of Jesus, we acknowledge the same principles that were revealed in Jesus’ death and resurrection, and were also symbolised in his own baptism at the hands of John. By this process the righteousness of God is declared. Romans 3:23-26 (KJV): 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. The voluntary offering of Jesus in crucifixion, death and resurrection was as our representative, (not as a substitute) and in him God’s righteousness is upheld and declared, and if we identify with him in faith and baptism, then we will be forgiven of our sins. Kind regards Trevor

Ellen White wrote, “In 1844 our great High Priest entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, to begin the work of the investigative judgment. The cases of the righteous dead have been passing in review before God. (Now note this:) When that work shall be completed, judgment is to be pronounced upon the living.” 1SM 125. That transition takes place in Rev. 4 & 5; and the living will be tested before Christ pronounces judgment. Palms. 139:23-24. All should be encouraged to find that the often ignored ending of the Investigative Judgment, as it passes to the living, is explained in great detail in Revelation. It’s about our times as described in a historic continuation of church and world conditions after chapters 2 & 3. But don’t the seven seals and seven trumpets present repetitions of past historic times? Yes, in partial ways, and we should consider them as proper wakeup calls for the Investigative Judgment that began in 1844. It’s like Peter telling people that the Joel 2:28-32 “day of the Lord” prophecy was being fulfilled by an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:16-21. And Ellen White explained: “This prophecy received a partial fulfillment in the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost; but it will reach its full accomplishment in the manifestation of divine grace which will attend the closing work of the gospel.” GC ix.3. Here are statements where she applies chapters following Rev. 2 and 3 in the same way: “The fifth chapter of Revelation needs to be closely studied. It is of great importance to those who shall act a part in the work of God for these last days. There are some who are deceived. They do not realize what is coming on the earth….. Unless they make a decided change they will be found wanting when God pronounces judgment upon the children of men.” 9T 267. That “last days” judgment will be for the living. So, “Study Revelation in connection with Daniel, for history will be repeated…. As we near the close of this world's history, the prophecies relating to the last days especially demand our study. The last book of the New Testament Scriptures is full of truth that we need to understand.” TM 116. And this: “Revelation 6 and 7 are full of meaning. Terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets (see Rev. 8-11). The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth was to disclose her blood and no more cover her slain…. But there are mercies mixed with judgment. Revelation 7:3, 4. The Lord has a people whom He will preserve. John beheld the ‘four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree’ (Revelation 7:1, 3) till the seal of the living God shall be placed upon those who love God and keep His commandments.” 15MR 219-220. The timing for Rev. 6 & 7 events are here closely related. There are two Revelation messages Jesus gave about early 19th century events that help us to understand what is happening now. First He said, “I have put before you an open door which no one can shut.” Revelation 3:8. That symbol marked the 1844 year when the court sat in heaven and the Investigative Judgment began. GC 429-430. Jesus then said, “Because you have kept the word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” Revelation 3:10. But conditions changed in the next church period, which is about our times. Jesus said: “because you are (spiritually) lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue you out of My mouth.” Revelation 3:16. That means He will no longer “keep you from the (testing) hour of temptation.” And note this: “Just before us is ‘the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.’ Revelation 3:10. All whose faith is not firmly established upon the word of God will be deceived and overcome.” GC 560.

Of course this statement is utterly ridiculous. The Godhead itself is based on the concept of "Headship Theology". In fact, the earthly marriage is patterned after the Headship construct found in the Godhead. The marriage is said to be a microcosm of community and of society itself. Astute individuals can see the obvious extension to the Church hierarchy. As far back as the Garden, we see that God Himself first approached Adam after the Fall. Not each of them together - but Adam. "Adam, where are you"? Adam was the leading representative of Earth. He was the one held responsible. The same is true today in the Church. Anything stated otherwise is simply, heresy. I am not going to dignify the rest of your post with an answer.

Of course we come as we are. How can we not? Unless a good sturdy mask is tightly bolted on. God is all about authenticity and non condemnation. and The Body of Christ heals and grows in this. The masks wont be saved.

who was beating up Hobie? Nobody... that's who. There's nothing wrong with pointing out issues of documentation... smh

actually, I *am* correct. The link you posted uploads an unsourced copy of the [copyrighted] 2nd chapter of Section One of "Here We Stand" http://mediaset.sdasofia.org/MEDIA SET/LASTNEWS/BOOKS/Here_we_stand.pdf whoever owns the webpage, https://musicaeadoracao.com.br/ would do well to document from whence the cited articles and documents were taken...

Hobie, as I react to your recent posts: Thank you for your openness in your recent posts. That does you very well. My overall feeling is sadness for what you have experienced. I commend you for your attempt to remain true to what you believe to be the call of God for your life and your struggle to remain within the SDA community. I would hope that the SDA Church could continue to be a place where people like you could remain, feel welcomed and be spiritually nurtured. May the Lord continue to be with you and to guide you in your spiritual life. At this point, I will simply say that people with whom you disagree are as committed as are you to doing the will of God and the mission of Christ in this last day. That may be true regardless of how you understand that and notwithstanding that I do not believe that you are always correct in how you describe them. I will suggest two important issues for the times in which we live today: 1) The SDA Church today is not reaching many people groups to the extent that God would want us to reach them. People who recognize that are attempting to discover the methods that are effective in reaching them and are consistent with God's plan for reaching them (regardless of what you might think). God will give success to those that are godly. Others will fail. Let us give God time to demonstrate which ones are of God and which are not. 2) We live today in a time much different from that of the time of Ellen White. In her time, it could be assumed that people had a basic knowledge of Christian faith and doctrine. Many did not need to be converted to Christ, rather then only needed to be informed as to certain doctrinal issues. This is no longer the case today. One can no longer assume that people have a basic knowledge. There is a place for some to teach basics and for others to expand on that foundation and teach to more detailed and less basic issues. One should not criticize those who attempt to build a foundation that needs more work by others. Expansion: I will give you and example of what I am talking about. Let us look at what had been called The One Project (TOP). For a number of years it held meetings that ranged from one to three days. Those meeting focused on making Christ the center of our lives. Those meetings did not focus on what some critics considered to be the basis of Adventism and the 3-angels of Revelation 14. There was not time to do so in a short meeting of one to three days. Japhet, a founder of TOP certainly preached on distinctive SDA doctrines, with Christ as the center in his preaching in the Boulder SDA congregation. That is where it should have been done. Hobie: I encourage you to work, as you believe God has called you, to build the SDA Church and to strengthen and nurture the people with whom you work to build a relationship with Christ. I encourage you not to spend your time in criticizing others, to include those whom you do not fully understand. God will lead and sometimes I believe that we spend too much time in attempting to correct others. Let God be God and do what God will do. NOTE: People may be allowed to post under a penname. In a few cases such may be justified. Most of the time it is not. I wish you could post under you true name. Ultimately that is a decision that you will make.

the exercise of faith renews the realness of God to me also. if i let faith lay with being exercised the reality o God can grow dim. i believe that is why there are warnings about neglecting our salvation. not so good to neglect to pray and exercise faith.

I hope I state this accurately ... What makes God real to me is my faith in Him. I choose to believe; and shape my worldview on that fundamental choice. I cannot explicitly prove that God exists"; but I believe it so strongly that it might as well be a fact to me. Bravus asked earlier "which God?" for me it is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses - and His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. People who do not believe in God choose to not believe in Him; and their worldview is shaped by that fundamental choice. Bottom line (at least for me) is that God is real, whether one chooses to believe or not.

i think of the blind men all touching a different part of the elephant describing the elephant. i think i am all of the blind men, touching a different aspect or quality of God at different times in my life or at different places of need. My God provides for all of my needs, and my needs vary through the day, and from the cradle to the grave. Over the development of my life my needs are changing. What i would draw from God is shifting, and to put all those provisions together with all those needs, yes they draw a picture of me, in a relationship to a providing God. I am not seeing one without the other. Yes we see God through the lens of our being which he created with the potential of knowing him. so many times i wept and my tears were subdued, but not immediately. i had a season of tears flowing. or my tummy was hungry, and i hungered, but food came. or i hungered for God, then as much as i could bear the Spirit came, or i hungered for wisdom, drops of wisdom came, now i am longing for more, more of Christ in my relationships... like Elijah sending his servant to search the sky on Mt. Carmel, and when the servant finally came back and said he saw a small cloud Elijah said run, the rain is coming. I believe the rain is coming. and when i am dying and need more time, and need more air and need relief from pain... it may not come till the resurrection, but indeed, oh yes indeed it will come. God is many things at many times of many needs, He is the provider, sustainer, creator, innovator, re-creator, preserver, cleanser, protector, author, life giver.. and more are you alive? are you forgiven? do you have faith? are you holding up in a long struggle? do you spend time surrounded by nature? are you bearing up in discouragement? are you buoyed up after a long course of more difficult days? are you living insights gained? are you hoping for better days? I offer that these are lenses by which we may glimpse God by faith.

Well I guess this is old hat, but I experienced it, not once but twice and my wife has seen it in her home island as well as here. So this is first hand of what this 'celebration church' experiment is about and give factual information directly from it. The next thing that happened after we left that church is we searched around for a regular Adventist church and found out many were being changed to this new model or implementing some parts of it, so it was not a easy task, and we found some churches that had not been affected and settled there. Now years later, my wife and I moved and went to a nice SDA church that still had the members that had started and built it, and had several hundred members and was growing, and was looking to expand or build a new church to accommodate the growth. So we raised funds doing bake sales, car washes, matching funds, etc.. and found a piece of land and purchased it and formed a building committee and my wife as a realtor, was with the pastor through the whole process and in the committee, so I followed it very close. So we build a brand new church, and suddenly we are told a new pastor is going to take over, and he came to the church board, and I personally was at the meeting with my wife and many close friends who were members and he kept telling us how he would preach what I would call SDA truths such as the 3 Angels message and use Ellen White, etc... And he did as long as we were in the old church, then we moved into our brand new church, and suddenly he began preaching of how we had to grow the church, and take people as they are, and I said to my wife, this sounds familiar. So the next thing that happens is the church board notice and called a meeting, preparing to go over the church manual on certain issues, and the next thing the new pastor calls one of the leading members who built the original church and tells him he is no longer need, and not to come to the church board. Then he gets rid of the elders and replaces them with people with what I would say had not held any office before, or just were new. So I went to the church board with my wife to see what was going on, and to what I would say to my great surprise, was thrown out. They were basically planning 'spiritual formation' and how to implement it and the 'Willow Creek' model to 'make the church truly grow'. They then said they did not have to put the offices to a vote, that it would be 'the pastors choices' and filled the offices with what the pastor and this hand picked board approved of even if they had little or no experience from what we knew, and cleared the church leadership of anyone who opposed them. They then replace the song leaders with what I can only called a 'rock and roll' band as I grew up on Led Zed and Black Sabbath, and now one can lie to me as to what was being played from the pulpit. I was shocked and the others were stunned, and they railroad these changes, and we sent messages to the Conference of what was happening and to a ever greater shock, someone I knew very close from the Conference came and basically brushed aside our concerns and told me personally to email him, and replied with what I can only call deliberate misdirection and dismissal of the pressing issues. Now, the church at first attracted members that like coming to hear this type of music, and come as they 'truly' were to say the least and have a church not using Ellen White any longer. But they only showed up for a while and gave little to support the church, so our newly fully paid church went into debt, and by this time most of the regular members had left for other churches, or gave up and stayed home. It was a total meltdown, and soon even the newbies stopped coming, and just a handful showed up on Sabbath, and the few left in the church board called a meeting, but the pastor gave 'last sermon' and resigned. My wife and I left and with others we have formed a new church, and I am in charge of the building fund, and I am going before the members next Sabbath, to basically start all over and go from scratch to a new church, again. And I have nothing 'good' I can say of the conference or their 'help', except they have not tried to stop us. I tell all the members that no matter what, SOP tells us the church will not fall, and we must go forward. I never imagined it would be like this... Sad, very sad is all I can say......