Leaderboard

FYI, I attend a comparatively conservative SDA Church with traditional or respectful, worshipful contemporary music. No dancing or falling on the floor or speaking in tongues in public worship. I have no idea what people do in their private worship. I went the charismatic route for a while and really enjoyed the enthusiasm, but didn't care for the doctrinal "slippage" and the total avoidance of discussion on apocryphal events (which are very important to me at this place in time). On the other hand, I respect the right and liberty of others to seek the Lord as they see fit. There are many things that I believe that people of other denominations don't believe (e.g., the sacredness of Sabbath). But that doesn't mean that I'm saved and they're gonna burn. Also, there are many intra- and interdenominational disagreements over things that are completely non-salvational as far as I'm concerned. This is one of them.

Context...context....The rabbit hole of 'perfectionism' is to small for me!

As I read this thread, I see a debate on how SDA's should conduct their services. I hope this isn't off topic; but is salvation about being the right kind of Adventist, or having a right relationship with Christ?

Not sure whether I've shared this before: if so it was a long time ago. Just something to give us a sense of perspective:

The following is being reported from the Metro-Sacramento area: * In broad daylight a woman was dragged out of her car, thrown to the ground and her car was stolen. * Later a man was arrested who was in possession of her car. But, the police only had evidence to charge him with being in possession of a stolen vehicle, until they obtained results of a DNA test! * You see, when he drug the woman out of the car, he lost a shoe. * Following the DNA test of the shoe, and of him, he is now charged with three (3) crimes--assault on an elderly person, carjacking and possession of a stolen vehicle. Lesson learned: If you are going to commit a crime, keep your shoes on your feet.

My fav video of all time regarding S p a c e !!! An Infinite Love has an Infinite Place to Infinitely demonstrate!

So perfection is possible, Christ was perfect? My understanding is not that he came to 'prove', but to 'save'. In doing so, He did show that Adam and Eve, had They not step into and followed up on temptation, could have led the life Christ designed for them. Yes, there are many 'things' that Christ did, we could also achieve, but perfection, no, because then we would not need a Savior.

I hate to be "picky", but it seems to me that Christ lived the life we all SHOULD live; but unfortunately, every human except Him has failed. That's why we all need a Savior.

Definitely a very cool representation! I suspect it's not perfectly accurate, since I think the plane of the ecliptic (the plane in which all the planets orbit our sun (approximately)) is in approximately the same direction as the plane of the galaxy, so the motion of the sun is in the same plane as the motion of the planets... but I could be wrong about that. I'll do some extra checking. As the numbers B/W Photodude shared show, the motion of the sun is not just one thing either, but at least 3 motions... We're in a stunning, complex, enormous universe, that's for sure, and it's great to remind ourselves of that sometimes!

Thank you for your thoughts, but we have to stand up when we see apostasy creeping into the church, and this was the 'spiritual formation' which must be shown for what it is, and stopped. I had not gotten into this aspect of the 'Willow Creek' model in my first church so didn't know what is was when the pastor started talking of some type of training that everyone in the church must be put through. They had brought it into the church board and the new members all seemed to know about it and how it was implemented and they prepared to set up 'spiritual formation' groups and have everyone in the church join a group, and go through the education of it. I was the teacher of the main sanctuary and coordinated the other teachers so heard what was going on from feedback from members on the board and others, and they were setting up leaders for the groups and wanted me to join. But the groups were to meet on Wednesday night which conflicted with the regular prayer meeting which I went to, so I declined. Well the pressure was put on me to quit going to prayer meeting and join, and they had one of the new church board members who was a retired pastor, invite me one Sabbath afternoon for lunch, so I thought it was a social invite and went with my wife. Well it was nothing but a open try to recruit us to come to one of the 'spiritual formation' groups, as they were training the leaders, and I don't know if they wanted me as one of them, but we politely declined. They then made a presentation right in the middle of the sermon, literally of the 'groups' and that everyone needed to join and go through the training. But it was not a resounding success in getting those in the church to join, so they continued pushing for everyone to join the groups, and came out with a ban against 'negative rumors' of 'spiritual formation' straight from the new church board. Many of the members began to find out what this 'spiritual formation' was about and it was soon seen for what it was, 'eastern mysticism' mixed in with Roman Catholic flavor of beliefs and doctrines and most members didn't want any of it. The pastor stopped his sermon and brought up the 'leaders' of each group and urged everyone to join one of the groups, the small groups and classes on Spiritual Formation/Willow Creek training program, but only a few classes actually met. Then as it was time to vote in new department leaders, and they had trained many of leaders of these groups they now brought in the presentation before the church for the 'candidates' for leadership for the coming year, and only those who had gone through the 'spiritual formation' training were included. Well they brought it to a vote in front of the whole church, and the members discerned what was being done, and voted NO! The members stood up and told those up front at the pulpit including the pastor, pushing the 'candidates' that what they were doing was wrong and they would let the conference know what they were trying to do. But then they tried to find a way to get by the nomination and voting process clearly laid out in the church manual and impose these 'candidates' without any nomination, without any vote by the church, and without any approval by the church board. I didn't think it was possible but they put in these new leaders, I think they said the leaders would be put in charge of the various departments by the pastor, as the leaders had been vetted by the pastor and new members at the church board, but no vote. The attendance dropped to a handful for Sabbath School, and they went into debt as offerings dwindled and this was even though the church was fully paid off. We found out they gave the 'rock band' members a stipend each month, a substantial sum even though they didn't have monies to pay for essentials in the church. This went on for the year and the next year they could not get people to accept office as by this time their agenda to force the 'celebration church/Willow Creek' model was clearly seen, so they just 'rolled over' whoever was in office. It is a terrible mess, with a backlash as the members unquestionably clearly began to grasp what had been happening, and basically the church was left in shambles with just a few members of a once thriving church. The new church board finally turned on the new pastor and pastor was finally asked to leave, and instead he 'retired' and left Monday morning after Sabbath and a 'interim pastor' was sent by the conference. Well the remaining members had a business meeting and they were split straight down the middle on the 'style' of church they wanted, and it appears this 'interim pastor' was brought in is still trying to continue the Spiritual Formation/Willow Creek model and he tried to bring up the idea to go on with the model by having 2 services. A morning service with no "rock/roll" and regular program for most of the members and a noon service with the 'fast paced' program and music for the 'non traditional' crowd and newbies they want to bring in according the model. From what we last heard, it is mostly empty on Sabbath morning, and they were having Sunday morning breakfast to attract people....