Leaderboard

yeah, I guess should just make certain that person should feel as embarrassed as possible and "not-as-good-as" the vegetarians in our midsts, because, you know, those who eat meat won't go to heaven... so... no one who is LGBTQ should be baptized because that could cost them eternal life? They should remain unbaptized? Or is it that no LGBTQ person will gain eternal life, no matter if they're baptized or not? (Sadly, that *does* seem to be what many believe.... ) NOTE: I understand the above illustrations by Photodude were just given as examples as requested.... and aren't really the topic for this thread....so I probably shouldn't have even commented. But I did. Alas, I emerge from one disaster to fall into a worse. ~ Pierre Corneille ...C'est la vie.

Well, you probably did not laugh as hard as I did. I have corrected my typo.

Those that would be king, is what often comes to mind when reading or hearing from people and sites that claim to have the 'only' truth or the pure truth or, etc, etc......

Look at this as it is a eye opening shock of cold water on those who are pushing the Willow Creek Model of 'Celebration SDA Churches' with its hidden 'Spiritual Formation': "My Pilgrimage to U.S.A. Celebration Churches By the late 1980s, Australian Adventist administrators, evangelists, and pastors were looking for an answer to the challenge of this post-Christian era. They wanted to know how to successfully grow their churches. It was at this time that the "celebration movement" was introduced to the world church of Seventh-day Adventists. The church’s leading papers heralded the first celebration churches in Milwaukie, a suburb of Portland, Oregon; and Colton, California, U.S.A. This new type of church was believed to be the answer to our church growth problems, as hundreds were flocking to these celebration churches. I was one of the pastors who embarked upon this pilgrimage. My first opportunity to observe the celebration church movement in detail was in June 1990. I was part of a group of 30 Australian pastors who were taken on a Church Growth Tour through the U.S.A. to learn how to grow churches. Two of the "growing" Adventist churches we visited were Milwaukee and Colton. With glowing enthusiasm their pastors told of the crowds of worshippers who were attending. Their excitement was contagious. We took notes, filed materials, and then attended some of their services. I was in my 38th year of ministry, having been a departmental director and pastor/evangelist. Observing these celebration churches caused me concern as I saw their sacred worship services accompanied with lights and loud disco-type music of secular, worldly entertainment. The distinctive truths of the three angels’ messages and the Spirit of Prophecy had given way to a message of "love and acceptance." Church standards had suffered a similar fate, as members were encouraged to be "loving" and not "judgmental." However, many of those attracted to these services could not see the dangers. They expressed their joy that this new presentation of the Gospel had brought to them love, understanding, and a liberation from Adventist legalism. With almost evangelistic zeal the members were urging other Adventists from surrounding churches to join them in this newfound experience. These churches were certainly growing, and rapidly. But it was largely "transfer growth" from other Adventist churches. While they were supposed to attract and convert "unchurched Harrys and Marys," few such "kingdom-growth" baptisms were taking place. While some of us left those celebration churches with questions in our minds, none of us had any idea that both of these churches would later collapse, with the loss of hundreds of souls. The pastor of the Milwaukee church also would become so antagonistic to the Seventh-day Adventist Church and its teachings that his soul-destroying influence would even extend to Australia. In fact, little did we realize then that one of our fellow ministers on this tour would on his return "plant" a celebration/contemporary church like those he was observing, and he too would suffer a similar fate, with the loss of the church and himself to the Adventist Church.... The Celebration Movement in the South Pacific Division When the celebration movement was launched in the Seventh-day Adventist Church by the Milwaukie and Colton Adventist churches in America, some pragmatists in Australia and New Zealand were quick to follow them. Five church plants of this nature were attempted in the South Pacific Division, each of which adopted a celebration-type contemporary style of worship. They were: (1) Cherrybrook, Sydney, Greater Sydney Conference; (2) Cornerstone, North New Zealand Conference; (3) Fox Valley, Sydney, Greater Sydney Conference; (4) Riverside, Perth, West Australian Conference; and (5) Southside, Brisbane, South Queensland Conference.2 These five contemporary churches that were "planted" in the South Pacific Division initially experienced transfer growth from other Adventist churches, but had very little success in their style of evangelism in terms of kingdom growth. Tragically, four of these five churches are no longer in the sisterhood of Adventist churches. Like most of their American counterparts, they experienced a tragic loss of members as well as pastors.3 Besides the church "plants," some established Adventist churches also adopted aspects of the celebration church growth methods. The Church Growth leaders of the South Pacific Division specially promoted one such Sydney church (the Mt. Colah church), hoping to demonstrate the success of these pragmatic methods. However, official conference records reveal that this church only had 19 baptisms in its first nine years, and in the next five years only one baptism!4 This "model" pragmatic church now has such a small attendance that it is struggling to exist. In contrast to this celebration-type church, the neighboring "commissionist" (or traditional) church, Waitara, has so experienced real kingdom church growth that it has been asked to care for the "model" church.5 In fact, more of these celebration-type contemporary churches are in trouble, and conference leaders are becoming very embarrassed about them, having in the past enthusiastically promoted them.... A mistaken assumption of the contemporary church growth movement is that distinctive Seventh-day Adventist doctrines are a hindrance to church growth and must, therefore, be abandoned. And yet, the churches that have jumped on this bandwagon are not growing!"

Moishe Goldstein, the owner of Moishe’s Deli was being questioned by the IRS about his tax return. He had reported a net profit of $80,000 for the year. "Why don't you people leave me alone?" Moishe asked. "I work like a dog, everyone in my family helps out, and, yes business isn’t very good. So why are you making a federal case about me making $80,000?" "It's not your income that bothers us Mr. Goldstein," the agent said. "It's these deductions. You listed six trips to Miami for you and your wife." "Oh, that," Moishe said, "I forgot to tell you - we also deliver."

David just received his accounting designation and he was looking for a job. He was being interviewed by Alan Goldfarb, a partner at the three man firm Goldfarb, Applebaum and Goldman. Alan came across as a very nervous man. "I need someone with an accounting degree," Goldfarb said. "But mainly, I'm looking for someone to do my worrying for me." "Excuse me?" the young accountant said. "I worry about a lot of things," Goldfarb said. "But I don't want to have to worry about money. Your job will be to take all the money worries off my back." "I see," David said. "And how much does the job pay?" "I will start you at eighty-five thousand dollars." "Eighty-five thousand dollars!" David exclaimed. "How can such a small business afford a sum like that?" "That," Goldfarb said, "is your first worry."

I was just reading in Steve Hawking's book " A Brief History of Time" that this is currently one of the prevailing cutting edge theories in cosmology. that resulted from the postulate that our universe if finite but has no boundaries (kind if like the surface of a balloon or the globe). Just like when you travel around the world, no matter what direction you go in the universe, you will never leave reach the edge and fall off of it even though it is finite in space-time. And like the surface of a ballon when you blow it up, it keeps expanding; but will always remain finite in space-time. You're right. The video Gay posted was amazing!

I note that several people have posted in this forum that the liberals (celebration church people and other such) do not financially support the church program. In my experience and I am thinking of several cases, they financially support the voted program and I have seen them raise thousands of dollars (In one such case, $40,000.) in a very short period of time. I also note the number of comments that have been made as to pastors who "forced" their views on congregations. In a few cases that might be true. but, in my thinking such would be the exception. It also should be noted that every time there is a pastoral change, some members will not agree with something about the new pastor and they join other congregations if possible. The following, in my opinion, is what typically happens with a pastoral change: * With the departure of a pastor and the need for a new pastor, the congregation is asked to consider what has been going well, what needs to be changed and to formulated an updated mission statement ass to what the congregation would like to be their focus in the near future. E.G. A congregation who is located near a public university might want to have as their mission the continued, or new, mission of spiritually supporting university students. Another congregation with a membership that largely drove in from other areas might want to focus on reaching local people in their community, while a congregation that was largely unknown in the community might want to focus in programs in the community that resulted in the congregation becoming known as a constructive community member. NOTE: All of that I have mentioned come from actual decisions made by a SDA congregation and included evangelism of people. * With the above in mind. a process would take place where potential candidates for the new pastoral position would visit the congregation. There a dialogue would take place where the pastoral candidate would come to understand the intended focus of the congregation and the candidate would share there perspective as to what they wanted to accomplish and what they considered their skills to be as to the intended focus of the congregation. E.G. The candidate might share their experience in working with university students or perhaps in working with the homeless. * At tis point, the congregation decides whether to invite the candidate and if invited, the candidate decides whether or not to accept. I have experienced the above to a greater or a lessor extent take place with a pastoral change. Yes, with each change, there may be some differences. But, if the congregation really wants to be involved, that will happen and the Conference will not force a bad choice on a congregation. In some cases it may take some time for the congregation go get a good pastoral fit. But, that is much better than the option of getting a pastor that simply is not going to work out. But, this is just the first step. Once the new pastor has arrived, that pastor is going to have to initiate a program that is centered on the congregational mission. In this process there will likely be some who will transfer membership both in and out. E.G. I am thinking of a congregation that wanted to focus on university students. With that focus, some members transferred out and new members transferred in. * With the established focus on congregational mission leadership positions will be established and people selected for those position who have the skills to work in those areas. Some members will not agree with those decisions. * The congregation will need to make decisions as to how to accommodate the various groups within the membership and their spiritual needs. Sometimes tough decision will have to be made. I am personally aware of a number of times where a pastor has needed to say to a person: You are welcome to have your own Sabbath School class that you conduct as you wish with members who want to join your class. But, this is the mission upon which the congregation has decided to focus. As you do not agree with that direction, you cannot serve in certain specific leadership positons. Sometimes the Conference has to get directly involved. NOTE: I fully expect that I will be challenged by some on what I have stated above and I will be told that the above in not the way that it works. Perhaps? But, that may be because the local congregation is not involved enough work with the Conference to put in place what the congregation wants. The bottom line is that the local congregation, in this day and age, is more powerful than some might think.

lol ... I seem to be easily amused this evening.

The following quote, related to bicycles, is taken from a larger document published by the White Estate. Both the quote and the larger document clearly lay out the idea, without using the words "higher criticism," that the foundational principles of Higher criticism should be followed in understanding the writings of Ellen White.

Higher criticism has too often (even by Mrs. White) been interchangeable with Modernism. Too often people mean Modernism when they say Higher criticism. They are not both the same. Modernism is the belief that the things in the Bible are not historical. They use higher criticism as one of their arguments basically saying that if the Bible were true should it not have been just perfect from the start?" Higher Criticism is looking at how the text was edited. Lower criticism is studying the final form of the text. They originally started out as complementary to each other.

Greetings Greg, First time I have heard that Higher Criticism could be associated with the purchase of a bicycle. SDAs certainly have something to worry about here. What about tricycles and motorised quad bikes. Kind regards Trevor

I change not

Higher Criticism: Good or bad? As to the Bible, there are major SDA officials who reject it out of hand. As to EGW, the position of the White Estate, and also the denomination is that central elements of so-called Higher criticism are required in order to understand EGW. This situation is an inconsistency that is problematic. For an example of Higher Criticism applied to EGW, see the EGW Estate position on EGW's advice on the purchase of a bicycle.

sorry, Wanderer, that my sense of humor is lost on you... I'll try to keep my amusement to myself, so as not to cause anyone the vapors..

I've been wanting to make some comments here but have not had the time that I thought would be fair, so I will try a "Standing on one leg" answer. Then there is another direction on this which I feel is more urgent to address and I will do that below. Anyway, so called "celebration" churches are not one group. The post have lumped them all together. I've attended a few including in Milwaukee Oregon and Colton California. They were as different as day and night. And I have read balanced articles about others from people who I respect. What the "Celebration" churches have in common is that they do not follow the traditional 1700/1800 Methodist model of worship, but are willing to try other forms. Milwaukee had a style that was very culturally Christian. I don't see it attracting people who were not into a very sticky sweet Jesusiee type of religion. Having lived in Israel and had a couple of former girlfriends who were Israeli and one who was a Christian Arab from Bethlehem, if I did marry any of them (or had them come to visit) I would not have taken them to that church. But yet there are Christians who it appeals to. The big problem I saw with that church was that they were so close to "Hope International" in Washington that the "Hope International" people would accuse that church of this that and the other thing. For example a Baptist church in the area who they once rented from was on a Saturday holding a car wash. It was to raise money for a boy in Portland who had cancer. By the way the boy was a Seventh-day Adventist. Even thought it was not the Seventh-day Adventist church having that carwash, the people from Hope International accused them of sponsoring it. This persecution is what destroyed that church. Now the Colton church was not nearly as sticky sweet Jesusiee. They had a service which was not the traditional Methodist service but they worked on getting people into small groups. Many of these small groups were VERY conservative and VERY traditional. They were reaching out to people who had left the church, or were on the verge of leaving, giving them something to hold on to and discipline them into the small groups which as I said were steps to becoming more conservative and traditional Adventists. But because they had the title of being a "Celebration" church once again it was attacked by those who love to give an empty criticism. So with other "Celebration" churches. Some are very conservative, others more moderate, and yes others who are liberal. Some I'd strongly disagree with, others I can embrace, some I'd not get too excited about but can live with. The only thing that they have in common is that they are open to follow other methods than the traditional Methodist service.

Showers of blessing

I know our church is all about correct theology. People are always more important than theologies and/or institutions. Jesus calls Himself the Truth ..That's what we seek and know.

I tend to think we over emphasize that "love" stuff and welcoming everyone with open arms. I also think that if some of the Adventists of today were standing in the Temple when Antiochus IV brought the pig into the temple and sacrificed it there, they would be accepted fearing that their feelings would be hurt rather than defend the Temple. When I read my Bible, kings of the Old Testament times, as often as they had good kings, would tear down the idols and temples to the heathen gods and even turn their "houses of worship" into latrines in order to desecrate them. Elijah did not show any love to the priests of Baal when somewhere around 400 hundred of them were slain. So, I will stick by my assertion that the "celebrationists" are rude (at a minimum) when they take over a church, disrupt whatever harmony was there, and then be off somewhere else when the church fails. I find it heartbreaking when I see the faithful who have worked for years to build up their church see it destroyed. I also know that these things are somewhat to be expected since our foe has only one goal and to do that very thing, but still it is sad.

In His Name

I suspicion that how you conduct your service reflects what kind of relationship you have. Having an "in your face" attitude or a disrespect for long time members of a church shows a lot. If you need something different for your itching ears, start your own church, or pick from the more than 1000 other Christian denominations!

Preach Christ crucified

Spirit of wisdom ?

Actually, ... I will go to any website I want! There seems to be a major divide in the church along with a lot of little ones. I tend to agree with the side of the divide that Kirkpatrick's website falls on (or used to). As I have noted before here, even ChristianForums <https://www.christianforums.com> divides Adventists up into two groups, progressive and traditional. They even move posts that ended up on the wrong forum back to where it belongs. Never shall the two come together! And on that forum as well as the church in real life, that seems to be the case. However, the Bible clearly advocates unity. You cannot have the mind of Christ and also have the wide spread dissension and divide that we have. So, somewhere, sometime it is going to get even more divisive than it already is. As one person says, "Where there is no love, hatred will soon follow." None (or very few) of the authors of books I read could be considered a progressive. I find many of the things being done by progressives to be very unsettling. For instance, I know of one church which has a pastor that tells his congregation that he and the conference want to move the church in a different direction. Members of the church are being kicked out by him and are now driving ~50 miles to another church. He usually has something critical to say about the way Adventists are. And when you have conference officials pushing the progressive agenda, deny churches the right to have someone from the more traditional background come to their church to speak, seems to me that Satan is getting his way. (Doug Batcheler was denied the ability to have a series of meetings in the Florida Conference and lately Stephen Bohr has been denied a speaking engagement in South Caroline. The "snowflakes" and their safe spaces!)

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. The characteristic are not of a sanctified path but more of another and secular one which I have seen repeated: 1. Come as they truly are with all the things of the world, as immediately all of these characteristics begins to show up in the members of the church, not the newbies, including all the jewelry and baubles associated with it, and business and other work of the week is done openly in church, its just another day with no reverence or holiness and its fine to go shopping or to restaurants and they make it a point to tell others and show them, so its clear what they are doing. 2. Another characteristic which appears is no respect for the Sabbath program, as to being there on time for them, whether the Sabbath School or regular service. They treat it as a social club just to come and see acquaintances and dress and act accordingly, to say nothing of what they display from the pulpit for when they go up as the 'praise team' or with the 'band'. 3. A third characteristic is their financial support or lack thereof when these member come attracted to 'music' and 'Willow Creek' model, as these are not the newbies as I said. The church soon starts to have financial issues, as the offerings die off, and as seen in our fully paid off church within a few months they had gone into debt and had to rent our new church to a Sunday keeping group to keep afloat. Not another Adventist group or such, but completely outside denomination holding services in our new church on Sunday, with doctrines and beliefs contrary to ours in the SDA church. This is confusing to the newbies to say nothing of visiting SDA members who expressed misgivings and questioned if we were still a denominational church, to say nothing of the 'music' or what was being shown from the pulpit or given by the pastor in his sermons. Well as I said, he quit on a Sabbath and left on Monday, and the conference has sent a similar replacement who consequently tried to cancel church one Sabbath as he couldn't make it for some reason. Not call any of the new elders or leaders to fill in, just cancel, and this is a established church of decades that had over 200 members. So what can I say except the 'celebration model' is not a path to grow or even continuation, but of destruction and at least what I can personally say first hand, a strange different path...

A church that I belonged to once was the oldest SDA church in the area and one that Ellen White had preached at. There were many older members who had been in that church for many many years and had invested much of their time and resources into the church. Then we got a new pastor and some of the newer members went off to Oregon to get schooled in the celebration movement that was going on there. When they came back, many changes were forced on the church that were not well accepted by many long time members. There was enough chaos that many of the members left and went to different churches in the area. It finally reached a point one Sabbath when the pastor gathered up his family and walked out of the church right during the church service and he was never seen again in that church. Along the way, programs were held in the church during the worship hour that were to me pretty much an abomination. I wrote out a lengthly description of that service and for sometime after it was posted on Larry Kirkpatrick's website. Kirkpatrick's site has been down for remodeling for sometime and also at the last time I checked. With membership declining, then some of the older members passed away, the church fell into financial distress and it was decided to sell the church which was accomplished by selling it to a bursting at the seams Hispanic church. The church for awhile rented a Sunday church and bought a building that was more a worship center than a church and still seems to hobble along today. So, another fairly complete church destruction accomplished.

Well I guess this is old hat, but I experienced it, not once but twice and my wife has seen it in her home island as well as here. So this is first hand of what this 'celebration church' experiment is about and give factual information directly from it. The next thing that happened after we left that church is we searched around for a regular Adventist church and found out many were being changed to this new model or implementing some parts of it, so it was not a easy task, and we found some churches that had not been affected and settled there. Now years later, my wife and I moved and went to a nice SDA church that still had the members that had started and built it, and had several hundred members and was growing, and was looking to expand or build a new church to accommodate the growth. So we raised funds doing bake sales, car washes, matching funds, etc.. and found a piece of land and purchased it and formed a building committee and my wife as a realtor, was with the pastor through the whole process and in the committee, so I followed it very close. So we build a brand new church, and suddenly we are told a new pastor is going to take over, and he came to the church board, and I personally was at the meeting with my wife and many close friends who were members and he kept telling us how he would preach what I would call SDA truths such as the 3 Angels message and use Ellen White, etc... And he did as long as we were in the old church, then we moved into our brand new church, and suddenly he began preaching of how we had to grow the church, and take people as they are, and I said to my wife, this sounds familiar. So the next thing that happens is the church board notice and called a meeting, preparing to go over the church manual on certain issues, and the next thing the new pastor calls one of the leading members who built the original church and tells him he is no longer need, and not to come to the church board. Then he gets rid of the elders and replaces them with people with what I would say had not held any office before, or just were new. So I went to the church board with my wife to see what was going on, and to what I would say to my great surprise, was thrown out. They were basically planning 'spiritual formation' and how to implement it and the 'Willow Creek' model to 'make the church truly grow'. They then said they did not have to put the offices to a vote, that it would be 'the pastors choices' and filled the offices with what the pastor and this hand picked board approved of even if they had little or no experience from what we knew, and cleared the church leadership of anyone who opposed them. They then replace the song leaders with what I can only called a 'rock and roll' band as I grew up on Led Zed and Black Sabbath, and now one can lie to me as to what was being played from the pulpit. I was shocked and the others were stunned, and they railroad these changes, and we sent messages to the Conference of what was happening and to a ever greater shock, someone I knew very close from the Conference came and basically brushed aside our concerns and told me personally to email him, and replied with what I can only call deliberate misdirection and dismissal of the pressing issues. Now, the church at first attracted members that like coming to hear this type of music, and come as they 'truly' were to say the least and have a church not using Ellen White any longer. But they only showed up for a while and gave little to support the church, so our newly fully paid church went into debt, and by this time most of the regular members had left for other churches, or gave up and stayed home. It was a total meltdown, and soon even the newbies stopped coming, and just a handful showed up on Sabbath, and the few left in the church board called a meeting, but the pastor gave 'last sermon' and resigned. My wife and I left and with others we have formed a new church, and I am in charge of the building fund, and I am going before the members next Sabbath, to basically start all over and go from scratch to a new church, again. And I have nothing 'good' I can say of the conference or their 'help', except they have not tried to stop us. I tell all the members that no matter what, SOP tells us the church will not fall, and we must go forward. I never imagined it would be like this... Sad, very sad is all I can say......

Lets give you more so you see where I am coming from. My sister and friends from college were taken to Willow Creek to 'seminars' and 'church growth training' by one of the SDA pastors and they set up a new church based on that model. I had no idea at the time what 'Willow Creek' was or what methods or processes they taught for those who went there. But to make a long story short, I went to the new 'Celebration' SDA church with my family, and they told us, as part of this 'church growth' methods, we would invite people to come, and we would be taking them as they were, not going and sharing any truths from Adventism or SDA doctrines to the newbies, and having breakfast/food to share when they came on Sabbath morning. It was different but I thought it had possibilities to reach many people who had never been to church or had much contact with anything to do with religion much less Adventist, so helped as much as I was able to. Then we got other changes, we dropped the Sabbath School lesson and began to use things that weren't connected to Adventism, and the song leaders where replaced by musicians with 'director' which soon became a 'rock band' with electric guitars and drums. Then Ellen White became basically 'verboten' and was eased out as a resource so as not to 'estrange' the newbies. So we changed but the newbies somehow stayed how they were, and all things Adventist was phased out till we become known as 'church lite' to many who visited from other SDA churches, lots of sound and fury, but little substance. Well, anyway, it got to the point that we had to leave the 'celebration church', as it basically was no longer a SDA church, more like a non-denominational and this is before I saw any part of the 'Spiritual Formation' which is coming out now. I will go into that next...

I use to be active on a website where Larry Kirkpatrick was also very active. I would often quote his posts and make comments. While he would respond to others he consistently ignored my comments. He was true to the trend that I have found among the followers of that branch of Adventism: telling us that there are only two choices, their view or Desmond Ford's view. They ignore and want to pretend that all other viewpoints in the church.