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I thank God for noble men that value women instead of devaluing them.

That's it- the point right there.

I guess I'm a cynic. My reaction to the article was, "This isn't anything new... and it's never going to change." I think the church and its ancillary faction of healthcare will always be a bastion of the "good ol' boys" mentality. And frankly, I'm tired of the "#me too" bandwagon. In my opinion, many who haven't really been sexually abused have jumped on board and claimed the #me too slogan, so that it basically has become passé and meaningless as a vehicle for change. **shrugs** Sorry that it happened to the gal in the article....

"Firm Foundation" was not an organization, it was the publication of Hope International when it was headed up by Ron Spear. I was closely associated with Ron, John Grosbull, Laymen's Ministry News, and John Osbourne back in the 1980's and 1990's. All of them super conservative. I thank God that I finally broke ranks with them and joined the real world. Knowing a God of life and love is much more satisfying than trying to satisfy a God of judgement and condemnation. Love is a much better motivator than fear. Given the celebration movement or TOP vs. the fire and brimstone approach to redemption, I'll take the former any day.

I showed the story to my Mom (a very astute 92-yr-old who's been a member of the church for over 70 years). Mom's reaction was different from mine. She was horrified to think that pastors or others in church leadership positions would behave in such a manner, and the fact that punishment was neither swift nor adequate. I'm thinking now that the story may be quite valuable in that it can open the eyes of long-time members who sometimes have placed church officials and pastors on invisible pedestals. Many people don't *want* to hear about (or read) anything negative pertaining to the church. But, imho, they really need to...

I have felt like this many times. One thing that helps me when I am in that wilderness of frustration is to journal. I ask God a question, and just start writing down what comes to mind. Sometimes nothing comes to mind; and I try again later. Sometimes nothing but gibberish comes to mind. And sometimes, a profound and wise answer comes to mind - thoughts that I am incapable of generating on my own; thoughts that comfort me and give me peace. The situation over which I am frustrated doesn't "disappear"; but my mind is at peace and I am able to think about my situation from a point of rationality rather than fear and dread. The secret seems to be to calm and quiet my mind prior to asking the question. Coming to God with a sense of trust and love (even if it is momentary) rather than a position of fear and guilt or dread seems to help. The more I "practice" coming to God with complete honesty and trust - even if I'm upset with what He has allowed to come into my life - the easier it gets. God's way is the way of love; but it has to be a complete circuit. We must complete the circuit of love; like an electric circuit where the electricity must flow in a circle for power to actually be generated. I still have more poop in my life than I care to deal with. But constantly telling myself that God is good - even when I don't like what's going on - helps keep me more balanced. I still "lose it" sometimes, though - usually when I let my "fight or flight" alarm (amygdala) rule me rather than my heart and my rational mind (frontal cortex).

The culture of "It must be hard living with a woman like that." is still very much alive and well in the Adventist church. Ask any woman whose husband served as a head elder for 20+ years and had multiple affairs throughout those 20+ years...just ask her whose stories the Christians believed. Deception and lies run rampant in the church. It's nice that some in the adminstrative/pastoral roles want to see change; but let them get the mote out of their eyes first before trying to remove the splinters from others.

Thanks to Pam, I was able to read the story. Thanks. In my opinion the SDA denomination has come a long way in how it relates to these cases. I am not saying that it has reached perfection. It is making progress. I find it interesting that the Canadian Union Conference is attempting to be healing to people whom were not injured by it. That is great.

The main event in the story occurred quite while ago as in the family picture the children are much older and this happened before she was even married. Perhaps the only redeeming reason to even have the story now is that the pastor/chaplain is still being kept in leadership positions by people who knew the details. However, yeah it is bad she got treated this way, but doing evil is an equal opportunity sin. But we don't really need another contest to see what horror stories have gone on in families and churches, now do we?!

No... As Pam pointed out, it has been going on for so long there's doubt that the situation will change.

Yep. Too often women have been treated as objects of fun or in a manner to reinforce worthlessness. It ISN'T anything new.

Don't know if these screen shots of the article will be "readable" or not...

Part of me is thinking, Why do you find this so shocking? This kind of event is more common that we want to admit.

" Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10:25 I am finding more and more Christians out there who stopped going to church. But what can you do when the Church doesn't really see you as you are or unlove you and therefore there is no encouragement thus renders this scripture is made non effect. As fabulous as social media is (including this forum).. It does not replace face to face relationships where we enter together in a gathering place knowing we are loved and accepted as we are. And that Love we get from the Father is shared among each other. Real Connections are formed like Paul speaks about regarding the Body of Christ. Thank God for the Internet for shut ins or for people who are not welcomed or that live too far. But there is nothing like looking into each others eyes and seeing Christ full acceptance and love for yourself as you are. Imagine a building full of this Love. Manifesting God's Presence in a mighty way. " There are souls perplexed with doubt, burdened with infirmities, weak in faith, and unable to grasp the Unseen; but a friend whom they can see, coming to them in Christ's stead, can be a connecting link to fasten their trembling faith upon Christ." Desire of Ages ..at the near end of chapter 30. https://www.onebody.life/single-post/2018/04/02/What-are-Dones-dechurched-Christians-looking-for What are Dones, (dechurched Christians) looking for April 2, 2018 Sometimes Christians get to the point where they say, "I'm done with church," and then drop out of church altogether. This is happening so much nowadays that it has become a social trend. Sometimes the people who do that are called "dechurched," or "church refugees;" but the most common label they are known by is "Dones." Usually Dones are deeply committed Christ-followers who are longing for more than they have found in the traditional church format. Normally Dones aren't walking away Christ or even Christianity. Instead, they are leaving the institutional church because they want more than they are finding there. So why are the Dones flying away from church? What do they want? What are they looking for? 1) Dones want heart-to-heart connection with other believers. They are tired of being passive spectators and looking at the backs of people's heads in front of them. They want to really get to know their sisters and brothers in Christ. 2) Dones are looking for encouragement and support. The Christian life is not an easy way to live and Dones have discoverred that weekly teaching that is often repetitive, doesn't prepare them to victoriously walk with Christ in daily life. They realize they need an atmosphere of mutual caring, interaction, and support. 3) Dones are searching for usefulness. However, they realize that the typical church service has no need for them and no room for their input. They want to use the gifts that God has given them to minister to others, and they realize that they need interactive, hands-on training in using their spiritual gifts. 4) Dones desire spiritual experience. They don't want to be spectators watching a human being give a lecture about God. They want to be in an environment where the resurrected Jesus is free to move and work among His people. They are tired of seeing Jesus as a mere figurehead and want Him to be the literal Head of the meeting. 5) Dones are looking for equality in the body of Christ. They have experienced religious authoritarianism and are tired of high sounding titles and demanding leaders. They want the freedom to listen to God and then say/or do what He tells them to. They want Spirit-led meetings. 6) Dones want reality in worship. They are seeking more than the outward forms of ritual, programs, pious platitudes, religious entertainment, and/or liturgy. That's why millions of Dones are courageously obeying the Bible's words in 2 Timothy 3:5: "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power therof; from such turn away." Author, Thom Shultz, sums it up this way: "The Dones are fatigued with the Sunday routine of plop, pray and pay. They want to play. They want to participate. But they feel spurned at every turn."

There are churches out there like that. I feel like I attend one. People feel safe to talk about anything - including their shortcomings. Everyone in our church is flawed; and admits it. We share problems with ourselves, our spouses, our kids, our besetting sins, etc. It's called being "broken together"; and results in openness and willingness to call out for help when needed. Sometimes praying for ourselves and others takes longer than the sermon. Some people who visit are uncomfortable with such openness - especially in an SDA church - and they don't come back. Others are drawn to it and stick around. one of our members is even on the board of directors of a non-denominational church that caters strictly to those with "sexual deviancy" issues (i.e LGBQT's, etc) who want to correct or reconcile their social deviancy with their Christianity. I use the term "deviancy" not as a judgement, but as a term used by many conservative denominations as a reason to exclude these people from fellowship. It's the same for those who have chronic alcohol, drug, or tobacco problems. I think some people confuse leaving "church" with leaving God. Lots of people find Christian fellowship outside of the confines of a brick and mortar church. I find spiriual solace with my brothers and sisters here at Adventistan. I probably spend as much time here as I do in my brick and mortar church.

The direction that this discussion has taken, has challenged me on one point: Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus as the Messiah prior to his baptizing Jesus? IOW, I had never caught the emphasis of John 1:33-35 which can reasonably be taken to suggest that John the Baptist did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah until John saw that Spirit descending upon Jesus as a dove? The story of the baptism of Jesus is also recorded in Matthew 3:13-17. Verses 13 & 14, at first sight seem to answer this question. These verses seem to say that John the Baptist recognized Jesus as the Messiah as Jesus requested baptism. It appears that John the Baptist is responding to that request by stating the Jesus should baptize John, as opposed to John baptizing Jesus--verse 14. However, upon further study of that verse, there is another way in which the 14th verse could be understood! The Greek (I am told as I am not an expert in Greek.) could be translated in any of the following ways: * ". .. .but John attempted to prevent him. . ." * ". . . but John had a preconceived belief that he should not baptize the Messiah. . ." * ". . . but John had a mind to prevent him. . ." * ". . . but John would have prevented him from being baptized. . ." That verse understood in the above allows for the idea that John the Baptist had never seen Jesus until that time, did not recognize him and therefore first recognized him as the Messiah at the moment the Spirit in the form of a dove rested upon Jesus. This is a new idea to me.

I am saying that the LORD planned to include ALL of Israel redeemed as priests one day - not just the Levites. He planned to EXPAND the priesthood. The Levites still have their inheritance, but so do all the rest of faithful redeemed Israel. It parallels the inclusion of believing Gentiles - by grafting - into Israel, and their inheritance of the proises WITH faithful DNA decendants of Jacob. Israel has been EXPANDED. Why should not "the priesthood" also be EXPANDED. Jesus was not a Levite, and He is now high priest. And don't give me that "not on the earth" line. Melchizedek was a KING and a PRIEST on the earth. Christ was made a priest of His order - the FIRSTBORN.

God did not say that His Temple would be gone forever. In fact, He said it would be restored - in Messiah's kingdom. Ezekiel 37:15-27 The LORD will gather the children of Israel. Judah and Israel will be joined into one kingdom - never to be separated again, with one King - from the line of David (v.24). The Lord will then make an everlasting covenant of peace with those He has gathered (v.26). “My Tabernacle also shall be with them; . . . The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, WHEN My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” It is "the priesthood" that is "changed". I've heard at least two descriptions of that "change". I don't agree with either. I believe "the priesthood" has been changed BACK to "the firstborn", with Christ (THE firstborn of God) as high priest. God said, "Israel is my firstborn" which to me means that all Israelites of faith, are "priests of God and of Christ". Believing Gentiles (by DNA) are "grafted in" to Israel, and unbelieving DNA descendants of Jacob are "cut off" from Israel. Isaiah 61:4-9 describes priests with land enough to grow vineyards and they have fields to plow. These cannot be Levite priests. Those priests had no land inheritance. Isaiah 61:4-9 “And they shall rebuild the old ruins. They shall raise up the former desolations. And they shall repair the ruined cities, the desolations of many generations. Strangers [non-Israelites] shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the foreigner [non-Israelite] shall be your plowmen and your vine dressers. But you shall be named the Priests of the LORD. Men shall call you the Servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory you shall boast. Instead of your shame you shall have double honor, and instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion. Therefore in their land they shall possess double [the inheritance of the firstborn].” “Everlasting joy shall be theirs. For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, and will make with them an everlasting covenant. Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people. All who see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”

We are to EAT the "body of Christ" - the true sacrifice, because we ARE "priests of God and of Christ". We also DRINK His blood - symbolically of course. So He did "fulfill" the provision for the priests - for all of them, not just for the Levite priests. The "priesthood" has been "changed" to include ALL Israelites, not just Levites. The Apostolic believers shared their wealth, so Elizabeth and Zechariah would be taken care of.