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Back to the original question. If we read our pioneers they understood the 144,000 to mean the ones standing at the second coming. Who will be able to stand? Then (after) the author saw a great multitude. The 144,000 are part of the great multitude, but are the ones who will stand through the time of trouble, which certainly appears to have started. None of us imagined this time in our American history, or in the world in general. Everyone is being forced to make a choice, a permanent choice, as to whether we want our hearts opened to others? Or permanently shut as we consider only our own needs as paramount. Helping "others" will hurt our prosperity. And we are certainly a prosperous country.

Here's what Rashi has to say about Psalm 23:2 He causes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside still waters. בבִּנְא֣וֹת דֶּ֖שֶׁא יַרְבִּיצֵ֑נִי עַל־מֵ֖י מְנֻח֣וֹת יְנַֽהֲלֵֽנִי: in green pasture: In grassy pastures. Since he commences to compare his sustenance to the pasture of an animal by saying, “The Lord is my shepherd”, “green pastures” is appropriate for the expression, “the Lord is my shepherd.” David recited this psalm in the forest of Hereth (I Sam. 22:5). Why was it called Hereth? Because it was as dry as a potsherd (חרס) and the Holy One, blessed be He, moistened it with the good of the world to come (Mid. Ps. 23:6).

PAM that wa very interesting=====the shepherd will provide the sheep for1 day at a time the sheep trusted the shepherd=====what a great spiritual lesson dgrimm60

Stinsonmarri Rachel and I differ on the rapture and many other issues. But I like debating with her because she does not tell me that if I had more Holy Spirit, I would come round to her way of thinking. Instead, she has a vast knowledge of scripture, which she uses to justify her (sometimes wrong) position on a topic. At least I am left fully understanding why she believes the way she believes, because by the way she interprets a particular scripture, that would appear to be true. In turn, I try to point out "But what does the Bible ALSO say?" And so the conversation goes around in pleasant circles. We are all on a learning curve. You may be higher up on that learning curve than me. I may not recognise the error of my ways because I am so low down on that learning curve. So I ask you to spend less time praying for me, and more time pointing out scriptures relevant to the discussion which will convince me, for instance, that there is no rapture. Such as explain to me how two can be in one bed, and one is taken and the other left. This sounds (to uneducated me), a lot like a rapture or translation. And I don't believe this "translation" occurs at the very end when Christ comes with sound of trump, great glory etc. I believe this is Him coming like a thief in the night to snatch away his believers before even the first trumpet plague. I don't believe that when Christ comes, any will still be sleeping in bed. They will be hiding under that bed, screaming in terror for the mountains to fall on them to hide them from the face of Him who comes in glory like the sun, and with deafening trumpet blasts, loud enough to waken the dead. You may feel its not worth the effort trying to turn me from my errors. I appreciate the time and effort that goes into any post. But quoting scriptures on how God gives wisdom to the wise is of little help to me because I have no way of telling the wise from the otherwise, other than comparing what they say against scripture.

Stinsonmarie: I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A "SECRET RAPTURE". Please STOP implying that I do. I titled my thread "Secret Rapture" to draw attention to the FACT that there is NOT a "secret rapture" or a pre-Second Coming "rapture". You come across as very arrogant Stinsonmarie, when you imply that Wingnut and I do not pray constantly for the understanding that only God can give through His spirit. When you call us "confused" and say that only you are reading things in "HIS way". That type of verbiage is NOT helpful in a discussion of our opinions concerning Bible symbolism, or Bible prophecy.