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8THDAYPRIEST if you thought I was down grading your thoughts and statements I am sorry but THE BIBLE IS TRUTH not an opinion===GOD THE FATHER===JESUS ==THE HOLY SPIRIT have a plan for people to follow and be saved=====they do not want this plan to be a mystery but clear that is why GOD gave these prophecies to help us we need to pray the HOLY SPIRIT can guide people in to all truth dgrimm60

We were created. God created us. He could just let us all die (or get rid of us). He could then create another creation. Right? That thought must have gone through the minds of all "created" beings. If HE created us, then HE can just get rid of us. We are disposable. The flood of Noah didn't help. It certainly appeared that God was disposing of humans who were a disappointment to HIM. How was God to let HIS creation know they are NOT DISPOSABLE. HE gave HIS Son - to suffer with them and then to die by torture. This was HIS "I love you" message. "I love you so much, I would die rather than loose you." You are NOT disposable.

In another thread that has engendered a lot of discussion, Gustave has stimulated me to thinking of the background of the SDAL denomination in the so-called Millerite Movement. It is of interest that the social context of that time was largely anti-Catholic. In many ways, early views of the SDA developing denomination reflected that anti-Catholic bias. It should be noted that today, some of those views are challenged. I find it of interest that the view of William Miller on the so-called "666" teaching did not reflect a common anti-Catholic bias. Rather, Miller believed that the "666" referenced a time period in which paganism was primary. He saw this time period as beginning in 158 B.C., with a treaty between pagan Romans and the Jews and that ended in 508 A.D with the conversion of King Clovis to Christianity. I find this to be interesting. p033

dgrimm60, it would seem that you fail to recognize that what you--dgrimm60--"believes" about the Bible is in fact nothing more than YOUR opinion, just like what I (Lone Ranger) and 8THDAYPRIEST and JOEMO and everyone else thinks is also OUR OPINION. The words of the Bible are just the words. What we believe those words are saying...is our opinion.

Because Islam is not a major world Empire if you really knew what the word mean. Religion does not make a world empire, political force does. However, religious ideology is behind the politic. Empire: a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire. Joe you make it feel like we want to just pick out the Catholic Church again because of the people and that is not true. I provided you just a pinch of history and many in the SDA Church has recanted on the evidence. I read Jan Marcussen book and differ with it on many points. But I agree with the history of the Holy Roman Empire that Constantine formed is in Daniel and Revelation. Let me begin with why I do not accept the word Christ or Christian because they are pagan and are the crust of the major problem. Sad my church fell for it too and will not like what I am saying. So I will be detest a lot, but the facts must be provided. I am not here for fame, just a presenter. I know the myth about Acts 11:26. It is very hard for people to accept things because of what they choose to believe. I believe at one time I was a Christian and also in the word Christ. I learned different after my last Christmas Tree. I was pregnant with my son and I was flipping through Jeremiah and I came upon Chapter 10 and it changed me as a SDA traditionalist to one of faith. I begin to check everything I once thought was true. That is why I became a Biblical Historian to understand facts. I will give to you what history showed me and it up to you to accept it or not! Cretin (n.) Often Offensive- A person considered to be foolish or unintelligent. from Vulgar Latin *christiānus, Christian, human being, poor fellow, from Latin Chrīstiānus, Christian. The American Heritage Illustrated Encyclopedic Dictionary (Thousands of entries in the dictionary include etymologies that trace their origins back to reconstructed proto-languages. You can obtain more information about these forms in our online appendices: Indo-European Roots) Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season. Catholic Encyclopedia Krishna or Chris-na and Christos come from the same root. Kris in Sanskrit means the pure or the sacred, ’the first emanation of the invisible Godhead, manifesting itself tangibly in spirit. . . Isis Unveiled, II, 158 As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter… For one year and five months the balloting lasted…” (God’s Book of Eskra, Prof. S.L. MacGuire’s translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41) At the end of that time, Constantine returned to the gathering to discover that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had balloted down to a short list of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Zeus (Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c. 325) Mosaic of Jesus as Christo Sole (Christ the Sun) in Mausoleum M in the pre-fourth-century necropolis under St. Peter's Basillica, St. Peters' of Rome. The cross was not a Christian symbol at the time of the battle – nor would be until the 6th century!). Any ‘good luck emblem’ at this date would have been the chi-rho – ambiguously the first two letters of the word Christos, the Greek word for ‘auspicious’ and also Chronos, god of time and a popular embodiment of Mithras! (On the Death of the Persecutors, chapter xliv; ANF. vii, 318.); (The fable was later embellished by the emperor's ‘minister of propaganda’, Bishop Eusebius, in his Life of Constantine (1.xxvi-xxxi)) The trinity consisted of the god Serapis (=Osiris+Apis), the goddess Isis (=Hathor, the cow-moon goddess), and the child-god Horus. In one way or another almost every other god was identified with one or other of these three aspects of the one god, even the sun god Mithras of the Persians. And they were each other; they were three, but they were also one. The Outline of History, by H. G. Wells. p. 307 With its spread among the gentiles, the pagan characteristics of Christianity gained in influence, and after Constantine the Great and the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, the traditional Hellenistic-pagan forms of civic, social, and cultural anti-Semitism (see *Apion) merged with the specifically Christian theological motifs to form an amalgam that has left a tragic legacy to history. The Encyclopedia Judaica, Vol. 5, p. 511 A tauroctony bas-relief with a Greek inscription. It may be found in the Vatican museum, in the room of the animals, and is behind the large free-standing tauroctony of CIMRM 548. Note that casual visitors are not allowed into the room (in 2014), but must remain behind the rope in the corridor, which is why all the photos are from one side. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Rev 17:5 I will be providing only information from history on this next. Islam was not around when all of the above begin. Ishmael nor his son created Islam, an Arab man from the mixture of Japheth, Shem and Ham form this pagan religion. History facts on that next as well! Blessings!

Yes. And No. When one reads the Bible they form an opinion of what it is saying or what someone tells them it's saying. It's how we're built. We really have no other option for understanding anything, from Scripture to your microwave manual. Having formed an opinion we then act on that opinion, or understanding. So in one aspect the opinion is more important than the Bible, because the Bible is, really, words on a page, but how we understand those words is what makes a difference. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in. To "lead us into all understanding."

Earlier I stated that I would come back later with a response. This is not that response. I will probably make that response tomorrow after a bit of research. But, I will reflect in a couple of comment, both personal and about the SDA denomination. I do not consider me to be an expert in much of anything. but, I do consider myself to be informed on some things. In addition I do not consider myself to be a so-called theologian. I am simply SDA clergy who in some respects is able to translate complex doctrinal issues into the simple language of children and lay people who do not have specialized theological training. In addition, I have considerable background in working with Catholic and Protestant clergy due to my background as a Federal chaplain. However, my interest in denominational history is such that I may have a bit more knowledge than many SDA pastors? In some of these areas I differ from the typical SDA clergy person. In other ways, I am probably typical. E.G. While there are SDAs who are scholarly theologians, probably most SDA clergy are not. Generally we do not have the background in any type of in-depth study of the various Church Councils, to include the various issues that divided Christianity in those developing years. This is clearly similar to what existed in the developing days of the SDA denomination. It was NOT founded by experienced clergy persons. Yes, William Miller, who founded the Millerite Movement from which the SDA denomination came, was a Baptist clergyperson. But, not in the beginning. In that beginning he was little more, as far as theological training is concerned, than a simple farmer who began to read his Bible, and did it without any help form any books other than a concordance--nothing. The SDA denomination was founded by youth in their teens and 20s. Yes, a few older, experienced people came along. But, few to none had any theological training beyond what they might have been given as a member of another denomination. Ellen White was born in November of 1827. so, during the 1844 Millerite Movement she was only 16 years of age. James White, whom she married, was born in August of 1821, and he was in his 20s during the Millerite Movement. The same could be said for other early SDA leaders. Speaking as a historian, which I am not, I would say that this background has provided context for the SDA church well into the 20th cent. There is an emphasis upon the idea that truth is not limited as to coming through clergy. Common members can discover religious truth. It probably provides context for my comment to the effect that common SDA clergy may not be theologians and my not be really well informed on issues that are important to some from other Backgrounds. This also provides context for why SDAs are often misunderstood by others. We can and do speak in confusing terms that are not well understood by others and sometimes not well understood by ourselves. Yes, it is our own fault, but we do it. Ellen White was a young, Methodist teen when she become involved in what became the SDA denomination. She was clearly limited in her understanding in many areas of life. God, who I believe used her, did not by a magic lightening bolt clear up her understanding. God communicated with her in human terms that a female teen, of her social background could understand. That often included terms that she could understand. It is clear that Ellen White did not in those early teen years understand the nature off God in a full Trinitarian sense. I suspect that we today do not fully understand how she understood the nature of God. I would not challenge one who stated that she probably considered God to have arms and legs. But, I would challenge any who built on that to say that God had a digestive system. One thing that Ellen White did was to state that the nature of God was in some ways beyond our understanding and therefore we should not spend endless hours debating it. Over time, Ellen White moved into a more orthodox Trinitarian position. In this time, we as a denomination have moved into a more mature state. We now have scholars and theologians. There are a number of areas in which SDAs are strongly debating exactly what is God's truth for us today. Included in this are studies into the developing days of our denomination to include to include the nature of God and the Trinity. I will, as I previously stated, write more on this subject. But, for now I think that this may add value to the discussion.

8YHDAYPRIEST as for bible verse about the PAGAN ROME AND PAPAL ROME ===look at DAN 7 : VERSES 19==20==21==22==23==24==25 if you can not get pagan and papal Rome out of these bible verses something is wrong==== and these can not apply to ISLAM dgrimm70

JOEMO DAN 2 in the image of metals the legs are iron====in DAN 7 the undescribed has iron teeth===the history calls PAPGAN ROME the iron empire there must be a connection ----if DAN 2 ==7 ==8 are correct about the 2nd and 3rd beast(kingdoms) when not know the 4th beast(kingdom) history seems to know===as for as papal ROME it comes out of PAGAN ROME this is also in history ====then why not believe the bible on this point dgrimm70

8THDAYPRIEST DAN CHAP 2==7==8 are from the bible WHICH was from the word of GOD === and not my opinion if you can not believe the bible then something is wrong as for as EARLY S,.D.A. history William Miller was not a S.D.A. when he learned about this prophecy dgrimm60

JOEMO when did the ISLAM change times and laws???====when did ISLAM come out of the PAGAN ROMAN EMPIRE??? these fact are out of the bible and history ===again read DAN CHAP==2==7==8== dgrimm60

LONE RAANGER AND COASPEN DURING THE CRUDSADES Christians fought against Muslims===when OTTOMAN EMPIRE fell===Christians against Muslims=== so there could be another battle between Christians and Muslims at the end of time but both read DAN CHAPTER 2 AND CHAPTER 7 AND CHAPTER 8 ===all these chapters talk about the 4 kingdoms in world history===it also talks about the papacy==and how they changes times and laws and killed GOD' true follows now we all know that the main being behind all this is the DEVIL AND HIS DEMONS ===but they use people and rulers and kingdoms to carry out the devil's plan and in DAN Chapters 2==7==8 make is clear that this is the papacy the main issue in the great battle is who will people worship and the devil is using the Papacy and its teachings to get people to worship the beast or Devil so it is the bible that is telling us about this not the S.D.A. CHURCH====if we as people on this earth want to follow GOD THE FATHER==JESUS===HOLY SPIRIT then we need to study the bible and learn about both the Devil's plan and GOD'S PLAN dgrimm60

JOE MO I AM not saying that ISLAM will not have a part in the end time events===but the book of DANIEL makes it very clear that the beast power is the papacy dgrimm60

HEY LL the number 666 is not the mark of the beast====it is to identify the beast power dgrimm60

Perhaps. But that is how I saw it.

Many are cornballs, but harmless.

I had a boss who was (and still is) a narcissist, who didn't care who he hurt, as long as he came out on top. (He's an SDA minister, but I don't want to give the impression that I think all SDA ministers are narcissistic — because they're not. Many are cornballs, but harmless.)

HEY ALL if we look at the 27 or 28 doctrines of the S.D.A. church they should all go side by side with the bible truths dgrimm60