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Gates is not considered to represent Adventism, as generally understood. This section, of this forum has been established where HCH, and others, can present their views that are not considered to be within main-line Adventism. It is pushing the boundaries of this section to begin to advocate the views of another as this forum does not exist to promote other forums and views. Rather it is a place to engage in a civil discussion of one's own views. I acknowledge that it is allowed to cite another forum as a point of reference. I do that along with many others. This will continue to be allowed.

Your questions are complex, valid, important and probably not able to be totally answered within our boundaries as to the limits of our knowledge about God. My response must be considered incomplete, and at best partial. # 1: Some will argue that God did not know, while others will argue that God did know. I will leave tis aspect of your question and only focus on the rest of your question. The claim of Satan was that human life, if given free choice would chose to rebel against God and to follow Satan as their leader--IOW sin. If Jesus had incarnated as an angel, it would only have demonstrated what was already known. There were angels who had not rebelled and sinned. Incarnation as an angel would have demonstrated nothing new. With the sin of both Adam and Eve, the entire human race had sinned. In order to redeem humanity, Jesus had to incarnate as a human. #2: This saga, when it ends, will have demonstrated to all of creation--angels, humans, intelligent life on other planets, the results of rebellion against God. As a result of that demonstration, all such created life that remains alive spending eternity with God, will have freely made a choice that results in their determination that they will never rebel against God and therefore sin will never arise again.

Okay - here's my 2 bits: The Bible is a book written by Israel, written about Israel, and written for Israel. It almost exclusively deals with various happenings in the Middle East, North Africa, and (later) parts of Europe. These folks had no idea about the existence of the Americas. So why would the scene suddenly change to America? How about a "beast closer to the Middle East and a much larger threat to Israel - like radical Islam? America is NOT the center of God's universe - Jerusalem (specifically the Temple Mount) is the center of God's universe. I won't even get into the ridiculous rant about President Trump. This isn't a political thread.

My husband wanted to prepare a talk on christian Education so asked for the book. My book came to me as a child in 1953 in rough condition. He decided to borrow the one from the Church which is in good binding condition. So I thought the book is pretty well ready for the garbage; I am going to read it through while I can still turn the pages. They are stiff like cardboard and easily cracked. I am going to read it all the way through, I had only used it for referencing int the past, and am enjoying it very much. It is insightful and easy to read.

1. It seems to me that the angels (at least satan) must have rebelled in heaven prior to God's creation of man. In His omnipotence, God had to know this would happen. Yet God created man, let satan deceive man into rebelling against God as well. God knew this would happen as well. Yet, God to loved the world (us) that He gave His only begotten Son that He who believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life. Why would He love us enough to sacrifice His Son, yet not offer the same deal to angels? Couldn't Jesus have incarnated as an angel and redeemed them, bypassing 6,000 years of misery for humans Why did He need (or want) us anyway? 2. For 6,000 years, God has (for the most part) limited the force of His sovereign will in deference to our free will. He did the same for the angels, who also have free will. For both orders of creation, the exercise of free will has wreaked havoc on the universe. Yet, God has a plant to recreate a sinless universe full of free-will creatures who will never sin throughout eternity. How will God accomplish His sovereign will of a perpetually sin-free universe without violating the free will of any of His sentient creatures?

5 Things You Probably Didn't Know about World War I At the 11th hour on the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918, the Great War ended as an armistice was declared with the secession of hostilities. Here are 5 things you probably didn't know about “The War to End All Wars.” The Youngest Soldier to Enlist in the U.S. Army Was Only 12 Years Old Frank Sauliere from San Jose, California, became the youngest doughboy to serve in World War I when he lied about his age and signed up with the U.S. Army two days after Congress declared war. Sauliere’s parents lied too since Frank was only 12, and they went so far as to petition President Woodrow Wilson to approve his entrance into the military. The boy worked running messages, a dangerous battlefield job, and as an interpreter, and during his 21 months of service, he was wounded two times. Spanish Flu Caused Many of the Deaths During World War I The flu may have originated in China but spread like wildfire through trenches along Europe’s Western Front and U.S. military camps. It was reported that between September and November 1918, between 20 and 40 percent of those in the U.S. Navy and Army were sickened by the Spanish flu. Reports indicate that more than 27,000 American soldiers died from the flu as well as a minimum of 14,000 German soldiers. Blacks and Native Americans Served During World War I There were about 13,000 Native Americans and more than 350,000 African Americans who served during World War I. This was despite the fact that Native Americans were not granted citizenship until 1924. Blacks served in segregated divisions, and only 11 percent saw actual combat. Some, however, fought alongside French troops, and 171 were given the French Legion of Honor for their heroic service. Germany Tried to Bribe Mexico Into Joining Them A message from Arthur Zimmerman, the foreign secretary for the German government, was sent to Mexico that suggested a German/Mexican alliance, and that information was published in American newspapers across the country. If Mexico had agreed to ally with Germany, the country promised to give back to Mexico the states of New Mexico, Texas and Arizona, which it had lost when the United States annexed these areas in 1845. Outrage by the American public swung opinion toward entering the war, which caused President Wilson and Congress to enter the conflict a short time later. A Homing Pigeon Saved 194 Men’s Lives Over 200,000 homing pigeons were used during the war to deliver messages for the U.S. military, and Cher Ami (Dear Friend) was one of the birds trained to do just that. At the Battle of Argonne, France, American soldiers, stranded behind enemy lines without any ammunition or supplies, sent Cher Ami and two other pigeons out with a message detailing their location and asking that the shelling by Allied forces be stopped because about 300 of them had been killed by friendly fire. Two of the pigeons were killed, but Cher Ami, despite losing a leg, an eye and being shot in the chest, delivered her message after flying 25 miles. She is credited with saving almost two hundred men.

With in Adventism there are two understandings of what hell fire is. One group sees it as the physical fire we are use to when say lighting a match or a volcano. The traditional Catholic/Baptist hell, except that it only burns people up then burn out. The second understanding is that hell fire is the fire we see in the Bible to describe the glory of God, God's love, power, beauty. That sin affects how we relate to him. How Moses could see his back but not his front because it would have consumed him. But at the end we all get the privilege that had to be postponed for Moses, to see him face to face. For some this will be heaven and eternal life, for others it will be horrible and end up destroying them. I will write more later on the eternalness of the suffering. However the fire of God's glory, love and beauty never does end. It is an eternal life.

IMHO, these (among others) are the hard questions that should be occupying our energies. Doctrinal variations such as which day to worship on or forms of baptism or Calvinism vs Arminianism or women's ordination first of all are insignificant by comparison but, more important, I believe they will become (more) clear when these fundamentals are answered. I think these questions challenge our assumptions and understandings of God, his nature and intent, Origins, and our understanding of Scripture. I know. So far I haven't helped a bit.

First of all let me say that I am in agreement with what Gregory said. My comments will just be looking at it from the same basic perspective. Second JoMoe, you are asking very important questions and I want to thank you for starting this thread! 1. Jesus could have been incarnated as an angel. God could redeem us by just becoming a creature and bearing the sins of the world. But it would be more effective in becoming a creature most involved in the sin issue. The angels and beings on other planets have been around for probably billions of years. They have an acquaintance with God that we children, humans, have not had. In becoming human Jesus came down to the lowest level, and placed himself in the weakest situation and in the most danger. And like the children's story at church, a message is given in the language of children but where the message can also apply to the others sitting in the pew. The death of Jesus is for all creation. Jesus loves and wants and died for all of us. 2. Prior to the sin issue the angels and beings on other worlds loved God, but theirs was an immature "My daddy can beat up your daddy" type of love. The Holy Spirit worked on the maturing of that love. That included coming to the answers about 3 things about God: A) Is he really God, the almighty, self existing creator, or did he just evolve out of nature and a higher life form who is trying to be the big boss and prevent people from evolving up to his level by imposing the law of self sacrificing love on us. B and C) If he is God what about people who break his law? He claims to be both just and merciful. Is it truly possible to be both or is he limited to either one or the other? To be just sinners would have to die. To be merciful sinners need to be forgiven. God worked long with the free will of the creatures he had thus far created. One of the things he did was to create a world where they could experiment as to whether or not nature could naturally evolve or if it needs an intelligent creator. The Bible does not give us the details of this, but according to archaeologists and linguists the Hebrew words translated "without form and void" when compared to how those words are used in other ancient writings, gives an implication that there was something going on here. Mrs. White's thoughts touch on it, but only to the same extent as the implications of the Hebrew words. Possibly things we find today that are used by people against creation are what's left from that time. What ever happened and was going on, it ended in chaos, represented by the water where we start that special week. At this point the universe was not saved, but through the choices they made two sides formed. Those who finally decided on rebellion against God, and those who were not yet willing to join the rebellion but wanted to stay with God but watch with an open mind. When the two sides were formed, based on evidence and faith (and God worked long with them) then God finally gave them proof as the spirit of God hovered over the chaos and the universe could see a very special week, where God moved from evidence to give proof that he was as indeed the creator. Now for those who choose rebellion, they kept experimenting with it among themselves, and licking their wounds for the Holy Spirit would have had an easier time working with them. They could have taken their lumps, faced the consequences, and some, if not all of them could have gone to repentance. But sadly they became upset at creation and decided to attack the new creatures, which basically made them child molesters. They had to harden their hearts more to carry out such a diabolic plot. The hardening of their heart made it even harder for the Holy Spirit to reach them. Those who had chose to not yet joining the rebellion were horrified as they saw their friends make that choice and how those friends began to molest these children. They watched the events of history and the choices for good or for evil that people made. The outcomes horrified them. Even though they never sinned, they are still suffering with us. Then we came to the event where God became man. Could God, as a creature, still keep the law of self sacrificing love or is there some latent selfishness in him that would come out under the pressures of being a man? They were choosing to trust in God. Was this trust dependable? Was God worth being trusted and loved or was it vanity. As they saw the suffering of Christ, as they saw what sin was doing to their friends who had decided to rebel, as they saw what sin did to the human family, as they were endeared by us but would invisibly attend our funerals, some who they had the hope of seeing again, others who they realized they would not see again, this would soften their hearts. They came to hate sin and evil, and what ever questions and curiosities they had left were given up at the cross. And the fighting against Christ and what it took to fight against him again brought those in rebellion into even harder hearts, so that at the cross as they saw the love of God one group so hated sin and evil that they had chosen fully to have nothing to do with the rebellion. The others so hardened their hate and cruelty that they became fully set in rebellion and thus both groups closed their probation at the cross. Not because God so declared, but because of their choices based on what they experienced. The universe will be forever safe; even thought the choice of sin and rebellion is available, there is no interested in returning to these.

The three biblical principles outlined in the previous blog are often in tension with each other when an institution faces real-life issues. People and relationships are messy things. Balancing biblical integrity with biblical compassion may seem easy in principle but they are not easy in practice. In everyday life, one often faces situations where it […] The post From Principles to Practice (LGBT 21) appeared first on Jon Paulien's Blog. View the full article

HEY ALL today NOV 11 is VETERANS DAY in the UNITED STATES====let us all thank the men an women that have served in the ARMED SERCIES dgrimm60

Bravus: The correct spelling is: Colin Cook. Dr. Lawson has written on Colin Cook. There is also much on the Internet about him. This will include material that was published in official SDA magazines. However, in my opinion, anyone giving study to him, must include articles published in Westwood. Westwood is a weekly published in the Denver area. It is an award winning, counter culture publication, that does investigative reporting. I consider that the articles it published on Cook to have been critically important in ending the support that the SDA denomination provided Cook. It must be noted that those articles were published many years ago. So, it may not be easy to find them. To get more personal: The story of Colin Cook is a very sad one. It is sad not only for him but for the many lives that he touched. It is sad for the woman that he married and the family relationships that developed from that. It is sad for the people who came to him for counseling. It is was for the SDA denomination. In all of the comments that may be posted in this forum, please let us be respectful and not make Cook the focus of anger. He remains a human, loved by God.

An everlasting Covenant ♥️ ? ?

To all: I clearly do not think that there is value in the substance of what I posted. I have substantial reservations as to posting it. But, I did. Hooy, is a good word.

Veterans Who Have Served Their Country Eugene Bullard,2nd Lt, USAF: Living in France, who joined the French Army, and became a pilot in the Lafayette Flying Corps, where he became a hero of his combat mission. It should be noted that he is considered a hero in France to this day. In 1917 he attempted to join the U.S. Air Service, but was rejected due to his race. In 1994, he was posthumously appointed a 2nd Lt. in the U.S. Air Force and became the first African American in the U.S. Air Force. Opha May Johnson, Sgt., U. S. Marine Corps: In 1918, she became the first female to serve in the U.S. Marine Corps. James Schmidt, St. Major, U. S. Army & U.S Navy: At the age of 14, he parachuted into combat in Italy with the 82nd Airborne Division. Shortly thereafter, he was discharged when he was discovered to be 14 years old. He immediately joined the Navy and was kicked out on account of his age. After turning 18 he joined the Army again and served for 22 years. He was awarded numerous medals to include the Silver star. Desmond Doss, Medal of Honor. The first Conscientious objector to be awarded the MOH. Ollivia Hooker, PO 2nd Class, U.S.Coast Guard: the first African-American woman to serve in the Coast Guard. She also taught for 20 years at Fordham Universitiy. Hyman Rickover, Admiral, U.S. Navy; He served for 63 years on active duty in the Navy. He is considered to be the Father of the nuclear Navy. Grace Hopper, Rear Admiral, U.S. Navy: During WWII, she left Vassar University, as an assistant professor to join the Navy. She retired from the Navy three (3) times. Hollywood has made a movie about her contribution to the Navy. As a quirk, she was known to handing our gifts to people of a length of wire that had been cut to the length that light would travel in a nanosecond. I leave it to you to determine that answer to how long that length of wire was. I have done the math. Lawrence Joel, SFC, U.S. Army: he was the first living African-American to be awarded the Medal of Honor, since the Spanish –American War, for service as a medic in Vietnam. His exploits under battle were similar to those of Desmond Doss. Ronda Cornum, Brig. General, U.S. Army: Taken captive during the Gulf War, where she was serving as a flight surgeon, who was assaulted as a POW. She served in the U.S. Army for 34 years. Kristen Griest & Shye Haver, both Captains, U.S. Army: They were the first women to graduate f rom the Army Ranger School. Their class began with 400 soldiers, which included 19 women. They were the two women, who along with 94 males, graduated. Note: The above information is abstracted from an article in the November edition of the Military Officer, which listed some 100 veterans who had given outstanding service to this nation in military service.

Dr. Lawson is a person who is controversal in Adventism. I respect him for the fact that he has fought to remain a part of this church and for his academic writings about this denomination. He has established a website on which he intends to post his academic writings. That website is not complete yet. It may be accessed at: https://ronaldlawson.net/ It also contains links to other websites of his with some of his writings.