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Yes, I was talking about the Millerites approaching and then after 1844. These were people from many denominations. They held many different beliefs. What they had in common was their love for Miller's message. We did not suddenly get a bunch of people who instantaneously believed exactly like Doug Batchelor, and opened up church membership to Doug Batchelor clones. Yes, we had a lot of non-trinitarians but we also had trinitarians. Our early belief lists were different from a creed because a creed is exclusive. You believe what's on the list and little or nothing else. Our list of beliefs were inclusive by being an intersection of what our members believed rather than an exclusive list. If you had a neighbor, brother Jones, who was a Seventh-day Adventist. You liked a lot what he and other Adventist neighbors taught, but there were a few points where you would disagree and you wanted to know if you had to believe exactly like Brother Jones, so you would look at our list of beliefs and say "Ok, that part of what brother Jones believes that I'm not comfortable with is not on the list of Adventist beliefs; so you can join the Seventh-day Adventist church. In 1888, 1922 and 2015 there have been attempts to make our beliefs exclusive. There is a huge different between unity and uniformity. Our church started out with people who held a wide range of beliefs. As I said that in our history our high points have been when we learned to work together and respect each other. Our low points are when one or another of us wants to pretend that we are the only true Adventists and that we need to make everyone else believe like us. With Des Ford, I had things I liked about him and things that very much concerned me about him. I would have gladly embraced him if he taught what he knew, and instead of saying something like "There is no year - day principle in the Bible" (sadly I bet that the PUC library probably had the book "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others, University of Chicago press which gives an excellent understanding of the year-day principle, but no one who heard him had read that book to question him and sadly that book would have been outside of his scope of study) and attack the Investagative judgment and be all legal adjustment salvation. If he would have said "I understand salvation to be a legal adjustment but not all Adventists do. I do not see how the Investigative Judgment fits into this understanding, but there are other views and we get the Investigative Judgment from the Old Testament, so I will let the Old Testament scholars explain the Investigative Judgment and I will let you know what I learned about the New Testament and Reformation theology." I could have been much more comfortable with him.

While mentioned in other threads, this article from Ministry Magazine deserves to be re-emphasized - https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2013/04/phoebe-was-she-an-early-church-leader

... and that boundary line may get a little blurry at times. It is certainly messy. But just like a messy barn is a sign of an active farm, maybe a messy church is a sign of a busy church. Just an analogy, not a personal doctrine.

I think it would depend on which Conference, Union, or Division he was in. He could have been defrocked at the Conference level as well as the Division level. I do think he would have got a more fair hearing now than he did 40 years ago. Some of you fossils out there (my age) will remember he church was also in a battle with the so-called "Independent Ministries" at that time (e.g., Hope international, Charles Wheeling, etc.), so the church was on "red alert" already. In hindsight, I think they were way too judgmental and harsh.

It should be a safe refuge for everyone. That complicates the picture as that will involve setting healthy boundaries

One thing I like about the SDA denomination is the leeway granted most believers to differ somewhat from mainstay beliefs of the church. Do you think that Ford would have been handled the same way if he rose up anew today? The dynamics have changed a lot since 40 years ago.

I'm not sure the making of a list was the main intent of the post. Do you have a comment on the nature of a healthy church? IMO, the church is a hospital for sinners, since we are all sinners whether LGBT+++ or control freaks or bullies or liars or pimps or whores or whatever. At the same time it should ALSO be a safe refuge FOR the sinner.

You are right that Satan was the only one free and the Bible throughout indicates this. Now Satan rules over the angels where ever MICHALE sent them. Keep in mind that that billions of them are released to work with one individual from birth until death. They get their orders from Satan. Satan cannot be all over the world at the same time he is limited. His job is to organize those released and to stop the prophetic prophecy that will usher in his doom. This place is not far from Heaven and it is beyond Orion. We forget angels can come through our limited time zone and return to where time is everlasting. They do have this over us but if you read truly understand the power of Nimrod and the people also the tower, there is nothing that man has not done before. Keep that in mind. Remember THEY came down with the people speaking one language and under the order of one man-Nimrod. I know most have a hard time accepting but Nimrod, Kush youngest son rule the entire world! You also need to listen to what YAHWEH said: And YAHWEH SAID Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do! Gen 11:6 THEY did not come down to talk to Noah about the flood, but THEY did here! Just think about it! You know, we try to mix false writers with men who had the HOLY SPIRIT! You cannot put the two together and the words as I showed does not mean what you said and that's a fact. I showed when these books were written and they were not by Enoch, he was taken to Heaven. Angels do not have sex organs, we do! The Bible proves that as well when he made male and female and told us how to produce. There is nothing anywhere to show the same for angels, except they were created only by THE SON! Evil angels work on our senses for us to sin. They are experts and as you can see more sin than those who are saved! The wicked are horrible and do all unimaginable sins to get a reaction from THE ALMIGHTY ONES. Sadly, Joe, we will believe a lie, stand up for it, argue it and yes even kill for then the truth. There is so much in the Book of Enoch that does not make common sense. First of all the names of the angels. Only one angel and his name is mention in the Bible and that is Lucifer. Secondly, if evil angels were supposed to have sex with flesh beings and they are bent on evilness you think they will stop? They are spirits, we are flesh and they don't have sex organs to have or desire what we desire. They just work on human beings who they know are created with senses, especially lust so that we can do unspeakable things against our bodies and against THE CREATORS! For the wrath of YAHWEH is revealed from Heaven against all wickedness and unrighteousness of human beings, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of ELOHIYM is manifest in them; for ELOHIYM hath showed it unto them. For the INVISIBLE things of HIM from the Creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even HIS ETERNAL POWER and MAJESTY; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew ELOHIYM, they esteemed HIM not as YAHWEH, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools And changed the magnificence of the uncorruptible ELOHIYM into an image made like to corruptible human beings, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore ELOHIYM also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of ELOHIYM into a lie and worshipped and served the creature more than THE CREATOR, who is blessed forever. Amen. Rom 1:18 -25 WOY Now, Paul gives a complete history of before the flood until our time. Nothing is mentioned about evil angels having sex with flesh. Not even the two Scriptures you stated. They clearly speak of them being in prison and are going to be judged with the wicked together after, the saints check over the books. THE ALMIGHTY ONES are just, true and fair SPIRITUAL BEINGS! I showed you that they are spirit beings just like THE ALMIGHTY ONES! They do not have sex organs, the Bible specified clearly that a male and his sex organs will only mate with a female and her sex organs. This was explained from the beginning and YAHWEH said very clearly to flesh being lying with even animals can cause confusion and it has! Nothing mention about warning flesh beings that angels would try and mate with them. The Bible is very consistent. It truly amazes me that people will read books that are fake or false and try to relate them to men that had the gift of THE HOLY SPIRIT! Satan will be prisoned in his own kingdom, his only seat of authority for a thousand years. He and his evil angels will all be released when YAHSHUA returns with the saints to execute judgment on them and the wicked. THE ALMIGHTY ONES are just, righteous and fair! All evil will be eradicated at one time. This should let you know Joe who was released by the fifth trumpet symbolize as smoke and locust, all of them. This is the first woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Finally, thank you for the compliment you gave about the male and female truth I presented. They both were to subdue the earth. No king or queen- both just rulers of the entire earth, they had certain powers that they lost as well. All truths will be revealed before YAHSHUA returns. The ME Movement and more, the violence like the days of Noah, the lustful sins like the days of Sodom, those claim from all denominations show how much they care for the least of them. They also show they are not their brother keeper. We all are flesh beings and are related by blood to one another. We came from the first male and female and we are doing some heinous things to each other. We have destroyed the earth that we were given to subdue and to care for. We have failed and the earth is dying! Soon all will have to make a choice! YAHWEH'S prophecies will happen and we worried or dispute over a man in the Whitehouse, we have problems. Satan will not stop the truth believe what you want the prophecies will be fulfilled and the beast and the whore will take their place as stated in the Bible. I just pray for all who can see truth from error and stand! Happy Sabbath everyone and special blessings from on High!

I wouldn't say it's a text we use to justify calling anyone father, it's just a text that we point to that shows you can't take every Scripture "literally". We know the early Church didn't understand Jesus' statement to literally mean to call no man father any more than the early church understood that to follow Jesus' teaching one had to hate "THEIR" FATHER, MOTHER, SISTER, BROTHER, life, etc.

Sorry, Joe but angels did not have sex with women of the earth. They were already in prison when they all were kicked out. YAHWEH does allow one to be with each individual person while they are alive. But just like what happened with the legions, they have to go back! There is nothing at all in Genesis Chapter Six that gives anyone this false view. Seth children were the son's of YAHWEH, and this is who the Bible was referring too and not angels. And YAHWEH SAID, MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with human beings, in their going astray they are flesh. And their days shall be a hundred and twenty years (times). Gen 6:3 HRB The word “'âdâm,” means both male and female. Gen 1:26 is truly bad grammar and it is sad also it is the male ego. The Text said to make male and female and them in THEIR IMAGE and LIKENESS. But male writers of the KJV and also modern versions have withheld the truth, making women second class citizens. Look at Gen 5 the first verse and then the second. ThisH2088 is the bookH5612 of the generationsH8435 of Adam.H121 In the dayH3117 that God (ELOHIYM) H430 createdH1254 man,H120 in the likenessH1823 of God (ELOHIYM) H430 madeH6213 he him. Gen 5:1 The second form is the feminine beyond the Pentateuch; a primitive word, the third person pronoun singular, he (she or it); only expressed when emphatic or without a verb; also (intensively) self, or (especially with the article) the same; sometimes (as demonstrative) this or that; occasionally (instead of copula) as or are: - he, as for her, him (-self), it, the same, she (herself), such, that (. . . it), these, they, this, those, which (is), who. Strong Hebrew Dictionary Notice the words and the Hebrew numbers above them you can find the Paleo Hebrew words in Strong or NIV or any of the Lexicons and you see other words were added. Now H121 says Adam and this actually means the first male human being. Who was created first and then the female was also created both of them were call Adam, H120 meaning male, and female. Male and female created HE them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Gen 5:2 Looking at the word There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of ELOHIYM came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Gen 6:4 Let’s look and see the words added: Gen 6:4 There wereH1961 giantsH5303 in the earthH776 in thoseH1992 days;H3117 and alsoH1571 afterH310 that,H3651 whenH834 the sons (nations or children)H1121 of God (ELOHIYM)H430 came inH935 untoH413 the daughtersH1323 of men,(Human Beings)H120 and they bareH3205 children to them, the same ( many he’s and she’s)H1992 became mighty men(powerful giants) H1368 whichH834 were of,H4480 old (long duration, antiquity, futurity) H5769 men (be extant)H376 of renown.H8034 If you notice I exchange some words that made you think the females only produce just men. That is not true at all. The Paleo Hebrew word "nephı̂yl or nephil," mean to bully or tyrant and the root word means to "fall, or to lie" from Strong and NAS also Brown-Driver-Briggs. So I don't know why the English actually lied and use the word giant! They were all tall and used 100% of their brain but were bent on continuous evil. Finally, YAHWEH never called an angel, good or bad HIS son, the person who called himself Enoch made this up! More than one wrote person wrote these volumes: From the third century BCE on, authors used him as their spokesman, attributing all sorts of secret knowledge to his revelation. Five of these texts were joined together at an unknown moment, and are now known as the First Book of Enoch. It is also called the Ethiopian Book of Enoch because the book is best known from some forty manuscripts from Ethiopia. However, there are many Aramaic fragments of the constituent parts among the Dead Sea scrolls, a handful of Greek fragments and one scrap in Latin. The title First Book of Enoch suggests that there is a Second Book too. This is a text on the lives of Enoch and his descendants; it is only known to us in a Slavonic translation and it is not known when it was written. The Third Book of Enoch was written in the fifth/sixth century and describes how the second-century rabbi Ishmael journeyed into heaven and saw God's throne and chariot. This work has influenced the Zohar, the sacred book of Kabala. Livius.org For unto which of the angels said HE at any time, thou art MY son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a FATHER, and he shall be to ME a son? And of the angels, HE SAITH, Who maketh HIS angels' spirits, and HIS ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:5, 7 We are called children of ELOHIYM, but the KJV once again said, only sons. John 1:12; Rom 8:14, 19 Php 2:15 1John 3:1 It is my hope that all of the men on this forum will open their heart to the truth and treat women as their equal. This was how it was in the beginning. Be bless everyone!

For an interesting article, which I wish was more extensive, can be read at the website below: https://atoday.org /christ-the-eschatos-a-meeting-with-gnu-and-the-general-conference/?fbclid=IwAR2Xk9iZPQ8YyilM1AIQWKLHV5Bq05sDk_ZryXrNM-q5FLPRN4J-WX6rHckddddd NOTE: I think that Smuts van Rooyen was given back his SDA clergy status at a later time.

Maybe I'm misreading Kevin's post, but I thought he was referring to the Adventist movement of the 1800's; not the beginning of Protestantism. I agree that the Millerites were misfits in their day relative to the majority of society, especially after 1844. We are rapidly approaching the day when most or all faithful believers will be misfits in today's society. It's already that way in some countries, and even some places here in North America.

Very interesting articles. I'm not just sure how to comment, so please forgive this awkward attempt, but too much of the church still wants it to be basically the two views of Ford on one side and the so called "Historic Adventists" on the other. And I feel that some of the other perspectives tend to be getting over looked Ford's view tends to be more focused on modern "evangelical Christianity" where there is a set of "Christian" traditions that we find in like "Bible Colleges" and a more sticky sweet Jesusie and who's scholarship tends to be focused on how the Bible was interpreted by Christians over Church history, especially the reformers. Their whole approach tends to be more devotional and not digging very deeply. The so called "Historic Adventists" have another set of traditions which was repeated in these articles. Besides Ford and the so called "Historic Adventists" there is the Adventist Theological Society. The ATS is/was first of all one option between Ford and the "Historic Adventists" The big difference is that they are more exegetical/Biblical Theology (think William Foxwell Albright and archaeology) than Ford and the Historical Adventists. Now all three of these groups tend to be very forensic in their view of salvation and they also tend to be quite fundamentalists in their approaches. Then we also have the subgroups who tend to be non-forensic and more or less anti-Fundamentalists. We have say Alden Thompson and the theology department from Walla Walla, the "Larger View" people from California (Graham Maxwell and company) and the views from the theology department from Atlantic Union College from the mid 1970s to mid 1980s (John Wood, James Valentine, Dean Davis, George Rice) who like the ATS was very exegetical/Biblical Theology, but did not cling to all the traditions that the ATS would cling to. All of these perspectives of Adventism had different perspectives of 1844, and while I pointed out these specific subgroups, they are reflections of ideas that stem from the late 1800s and early 1900s. At times we learned how to play together. But our problems come when one or another of these groups see themselves as being the "True Adventists" and want to force their particular flavor of Adventism on all the rest of us.

Fo Da Rome Peopo 16:1-2Hawai‘i Pidgin (HWP) Paul Tell Da Rome Bruddas An Sistas “Aloha!” 16 I like tell you guys some good tings bout our sista Febe. She one helpa fo da church peopo Kenkrea side. 2 I like you guys take her in, jalike da peopo dat stay spesho fo God suppose to do, cuz she stay tight wit da Boss Up Dea. Kokua her wit wateva she need, cuz she wen help me an plenny odda peopo from befo time. Hawai‘i Pidgin (HWP) Copyright © 2000 by Wycliffe Bible Translators International. All rights reserved

Thank you, Tom Wetmore, for bumping this reference to a most important artice in our MINISTRY MAGAZINE, the official General Conference publication for pastors world wide.

The article's summation... Quote: A careful reading of Romans 16:1, 2, thus, offers us a new glance at this remarkable woman who appears to be a close associate of Paul in spread­ing the gospel of Christ; who served as a leader of her house church in Cenchreae; who, despite all the dangers associated with travel on Roman roads, accepted the task of carrying the mes­sage of salvation to the Roman church; and who was recognized by Paul and others as a Christian leader in her own right.

Phoebe - one of the NT female church leaders...