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For some reason, I came across this topic today. I did not take the time to read the 26 pages of responses that people have made. But, I did read the beginning posts that Bravus has made. I can understand why he would call himself a "former Adventist." I appreciate his commitment to following his conscience. We should all do that. If I were a congregational pastor, I would welcome Bravus into my congregation, as a member. I do not think that we have to all agree on every point. I welcome here in this forum and as he now posts in Adventist Today. I went through a period of struggle once which included my questioning the extent to which I was a Seventh-day Adventist. That struggle extended beyond the boundaries of Adventism. It reached the place where I decided that I needed professional help, which I then got. As to the part of Adventism, I made a decision that I would not let anyone define Adventism for me. I would define it for myself. As a result, I decided to remain in Adventism, and if others (the denomination) wanted to expel me from Adventism, they would have to do so and I was not going to initiate it myself. This was only my personal decision and I can not tell others what they should do. I consider myself to be a SDA and I have no intention of making a change. SDAs are imperfect. There are issues within Adventism. But, I am willing to live with that and will continue to be true to what I understand and believe. Bravus, stick around. You are appreciated and I am glad you are here.

A comment on the use of a word: People often fail to distinguish between a lie and what is false. To say that something is false, is to say that it is not true. But, in saying that something is false, one is not attacking the motive of the person who said it was false. To say that someone told a lie, attaches a motive to the falsehood that suggests that the person telling the falsehood, both knew that it was false and also intended to deceive the person being told.

These are not the signs of being a Fundamentalist. If she was completely inflexible with a one size fits all mentality you might have an argument. But Mrs. White saw these as having dangers in some contexts but not all contexts. When I use Fundamentalism I am talking about the movement that started around the mid 1800s in response to modernism and seeing the Bible as purely a human book. In reaction people went to the other extreme and said that since the Bible is God's word it has to be totally perfect just as God is totally perfect. It must not have any errors of any kind, and must not have any contradictions. If any of them are found then we have to throw out the Bible.

Pastor: You are correct and I am truly sorry. I will like to ask all to forgive me. I do not want anyone to believe that EGW or others believed or knew certain things they stood for at the time were lies. It was very disrespectful how I presented that comment. Yes, many do not know what they were taught to believe it is not correct. I too were told many things that I once believed were true and know today it was incorrect. That doesn't make a liar and my mother always told me be careful how I used that word. Please everyone forgive me and I will address things not correct in a more humble and professional manner. Happy Sabbath to All and be blessed!

This one? "A view of things was presented before me in which the students were playing games of tennis and cricket. Then I was given instruction regarding the character of these amusements. They were presented to me as a species of idolatry, like the idols of the nations. There were more than visible spectators on the ground. Satan and his angels were there, making impressions upon human minds. Angels of God, who minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation, were also present, not to approve, but to disapprove." Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, p. 350.

A faithful witness ? Proverbs 14:5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.

5 Things You Didn't Know About Dolly the Sheep On this day in 1996, Dolly the sheep—the first mammal to have been successfully cloned from an adult cell, was born at the Roslin Institute in Scotland. Here are 5 things you didn't know about Dolly the sheep... The Sheep Was Named After a Country Singer Professor Sir Ian Wilmut, who was the embryologist that led the science team that cloned Dolly; in fact, he was the one who suggested the name. He believed that Dolly Parton, who was the singer of such famous country songs as “I Will Always Love You” was a fitting name because the sheep had been made using cells from a mammary gland. He thought it would be difficult to think of mammary glands that were more impressive than those of Dolly Parton. She Wasn’t the First Cloned Mammal Cloning produces an organism that is identical to another genetically, and it is a common way to reproduce among plants, bacteria or insects that reproduce asexually. Cloning had been conducted before and included experiments using sheep, cows and mice, but those were cloned from embryo DNA, not from adult DNA. Debbie was the first time DNA from an adult animal had been used. Dolly Was Introduced to a Ram and Gave Birth to Healthy Lambs Dolly was mated with a ram and had six lambs over the years. Bonnie was the first and was born in 1998; Rosie and Sally were born the next year; and a set of triplets named Cotton, Lucy and Darcy were born a year later. No evidence of problems with her lambs was found even though their mother had been a cloned sheep. Dolly Did Not Die Early Because She Was Cloned Although a sheep of the same breed as Dolly would normally live 10 or 11 years, Dolly developed severe arthritis and lung cancer and was euthanized in early 2003 at age 6 1/2. Since the cells she was cloned from came from an adult sheep that was six, there was some concern that it might affect the clone’s lifespan. However, thirteen additional sheep were cloned using the same cell batch that Dolly came from and developed normally without signs of illness. The Sheep Is on Display at a Museum Dolly was stuffed and mounted and is now a popular exhibit in Edinburgh at the National Museum of Scotland. Current research by The Roslin Institute is displayed at the exhibit, along with an interactive section on the creation of transgenic animals.

Psalm 133:2 “It is like the precious oil upon the head, running down on the beard, the beard of Aaron, running down on the edge of his garments.” Imagine the oil running down . . . During the period of the Sinai Covenant, only kings and priests were anointed for their office. (Prophets were not.) They were to devote themselves wholly to the service of the LORD. Exodus 29:7 “And you shall take the anointing oil, pour it on his head, and anoint him.” 1 Samuel 16:13 “Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.” In the vision, the oil drips from the olive branches into a single "golden bowl". The oil is mixed/combined in that bowl. From the golden bowl the oil then flows to the 7 lamp stands. I think we can agree that the special anointing oil represents the Holy Spirit. Israel was called "Green Olive Tree" (Jer 11:16). If the two olive branches represent the two highest leaders of Israel - the High Priest and the King, their anointing (royal and priestly) is blended in the person of Jesus Christ. As the ruler Zerrubabel and the High Priest Joshua, worked together to rebuild the physical Temple of the LORD, so Christ our king/priest would build the future "Temple of the LORD" - His redeemed church (symbolized by the 7 lampstands). Ephesians 2:19 The "household of God" grows into "a holy Temple". 2 Corinthians 6:16 “For you are the Temple of the living God. As God has said: ‘I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.’” The "spirit of Christ" flows out to the 7 churches. Christ is High Priest. Christ is King. The two are combined in the one golden bowl, which becomes the reservoir and conduit for the Spirit to the churches. I see the one "golden bowl" as the glorified Jesus Christ, who would fill His people with the Holy Spirit. Just my take on it. Rachel

EGW was not a fundamentalist. None of football, photographs or clothing styles have anything to do with fundamentalism.

5 Things You Didn't Know About Independence Day On July 4, 1776, the American colonies were declared free of British rule by the Second Continental Congress with the passage of the Declaration of Independence. Here are 5 things you didn't know about Independence Day... Independence Day May Have Been Meant to Be Celebrated on July 2 The Second Continental Congress agreed to a motion made by Richard Henry Lee, which called for the independence of the 13 colonies from Great Britain. Although the Congress did not approve the Declaration until two days later on July 4th, this may not have been the date the Founding Fathers were thinking of as one of celebration. In a letter that John Adams wrote on July 3, 1777, to Abigail, his wife, he said that “The Second Day of July 1776, will be the most memorable Epocha, in the History of America.” Three American Presidents Died on Independence Day James Monroe, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams all passed away on the 4th, and Jefferson and Adams passed away within a few hours of each other in 1826. Their deaths occurred 50 years after the date that the Second Continental Congress passed the Declaration. America’s fifth president, James Monroe, passed away on the same day five years later. The Liberty Bell Did Not Ring on July 4, 1776 Although Congress passed the Declaration of Independence on July 2nd and it is formally celebrated on the 4th, the Liberty Bell did not ring out to announce it until July 8th. This is because the document had been sent to the printers after its passage so that it could be distributed. The Liberty Bell rang out in celebration of America’s independence as it was read aloud to Philadelphia citizens. Fireworks Have Been a 4th of July Tradition Since 1777 In the city of Philadelphia in 1777, a cannon was fired 13 times to represent the 13 American colonies, and the city celebrated on the city commons that night by firing off 13 fireworks. Since then, the celebration has grown around the country with everything from spectacular fireworks displays to children waving sparklers in their front yards. In 1934, the 4th was even celebrated in Antarctica when an explorer set off a fireworks display even though the temperature was -33 degrees Fahrenheit. During World War II, the Declaration Was Stashed Safely Away at Fort Knox. During World War II, the Declaration Was Stashed Safely Away at Fort Knox.Following the deadly attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese, the Declaration, along with the U.S. Constitution, was removed from Washington, D.C. for safety. The two documents traveled with a contingent of armed guards and were packed in special padlocked containers that were lead sealed and put into an even larger box. With additional protection supplied by the Secret Service, the documents were taken by train to Louisville, Kentucky, and escorted by 13th Armored Division cavalry troops to Fort Knox.

Rachel has asked us to define "fundamentalism." That word must always be defined within an identified, specific context. E.G. Is it a political context? Is it a religious context? We will often need to be more specific than that. In a religious context, fundamentalism may be defined as a rigid, unchangeable attachment to a set of beliefs. If we were to use this statement in our definition of fundamentalism as applied to Ellen White, we would have to say that she was not a fundamentalist. Over the years of her ministry in the SDA denomination her beliefs changed and expanded in multiple areas. Examples of this would include: the Sabbath, the Trinity, payment of tithe, eating unclean foods and more. Another definition of fundamentalism, in a religious sense, would involve a strict literalism as applied to the Bible. SDAs are well known as stating the a basic principle of Biblical interpretation is to understand the text in a literal sense, unless it is clearly symbolic, or of some other sense that would not be literal. The Biblical books of Daniel and Revelation would include examples of passages that were symbolic. As applied to Adventism, this understanding is more complicated. In some parts of the Christian world, this view involves the idea that the original text was dictated, by God, word by word. SDAs and EGW reject this view. Ellen White's view on this is probably best contained in Selected Messages. As understood, by some SDA members, fundamentalism is the idea that in the early days of the development of this denomination, a core set of beliefs was developed that should remain unchanged to this day and on into the end of time. One of the problems that people with this view have is that there is not total agreement as to what beliefs constitute that core set. Some focus on a set of five basic beliefs. But, in addition to not total agreement as to what those five are, there is disagreement as to the boundaries as to how they should be understood. In any case, I will suggest that EGW rejected this view. She taught that spiritual truth was progressive. Throughout time the opportunities for increased understanding would increase. Gustave has mentioned a few ways in which he considers EGW to be a fundamentalist. I have some agreement with what he posted, and would probably revise other parts of what he wrote. But, that is not the major issue here. I believe that if EGW were alive and writing today, she would revise some of what she once wrote. IOW, I believe that she would tell us that the social (and other) context has changed and that in this time and place, she would revise her advice. On that basis, I would not consider her to be a fundamentalist, as sometimes defined. On another point, I prefer Kenan H's view on this to that of Gustave. NOTE: On another point, I really appreciate the discussion of this issue that is taking place here. Continue on, all of you to include Rachel, Gustave, and others.