Leaderboard

Raymond F. Cottrell: I believe that he was a SDA member and a retired SDA clergyperson to the day of his death. He was a former missionary, I believe in China, and editor of major SDA publications. He was one of the founders of Adventist Today and assisted Spectrum in its early days. He had differences with the SDA position on the so-called Sanctuary doctrine. An index of his many writings runs to 38 pages in length and may be assessed at: https://web.archive.org/web/20100601230720/http://www.andrews.edu/library/car/collection/C/Cottrell, Raymond F.pdf

My church brings in a lot of children from the city, often from poor homes where their only real meals are what they get at school and at our church. We serve what they will eat and give them nourishment (and not be unclean meats) and let them wear what they have. Also, having dairy allergies, I've seen many church potlucks where there is no meat but where nothing is considered edible without cheese. Also, many of the ideas are things that we have had different views in our history. It appears to be written by someone who takes one application and understanding of Adventism and want to force those views on the rest of the church even thought our history does not support it, and they can avoid evidence against them with the phrase about us changing our history.

good post, Kevin. I agree 100% with this. I once made a fairly comprehensive list of all of the main scripture texts/passages that refer to the "great controversy," and there are a number of them not even a little bit ambiguous. I'll post that here whenever I can find it. Its buried somewhere in my books and papers. I think we are too often glued to pet theories and denominated "prophecy" not always based upon reality.

Gregory: Usually we are in more agreement. Here I found a couple of points were we are in more disagreement. The first is the original post saying that it will challenge us. No it doesn't. It is just the typical "Daniel is about Antiochus" and "Daniel 8:14 means 1150 days, not 2300." Theories that were developed prior to the rediscovery of the ancient world through archaeology. I can add more to this. But Daniel's errors support being written shortly after his time (by his disciples) and would have more serious errors if it was about Antiochus. The book shows more knowledge of Babylon and early Persia, that would have been forgotten by Antiochus' time and has only been rediscovered by 20th century archaeology. Back when these theories were developed people did not know that Belshazzar was a real person, much less when his third year was. One principle that we tend to over look when study is the principle of exegesis/analogy. The Bible has first a local application, then reapplications by analogy of the principles over history. (A very useful tool is the chapter in the SDABC "The Role of Israel in OT prophecy, which gives a general overview. We can re-write it very specifically to different time periods in both the Bible and history.) In Deuteronomy 4 (and I recently learned of a text in Leviticus but have not memorized yet) teaches that the exile was to have been the last days. It should have ended by a second great exodus lead by the Messiah. Keeping this in mind, if we start with the third year of Belshazzar and add 1150 literal days to it, granted we don't know what day during his third year the vision was given on, but looking at that whole year we have business as usual. But if you take the third year of Belshazzar, and add 2300 literal days, granted we don't know the specific day but you get a year that includes Persia breathing down Babylon's neck, Belshazzar's feast and the early days of the Persian empire. If the Hebrews had spread the gospel to their neighbors this could have been time for the second great exodus lead by the Messiah. Thus if we draw an analogy based on 1150 days we have nothing happening or potentially happening and thus don't have information for a correct analogy. But if we draw it on 2300 evenings-mornings, we have the analogies we can do on the cycles and one of these would point to Yom Kippur 1844 when a sabbatical year ends and a jubilee year starts (based on the early date of the exodus) and the dawning of the age of exegesis and the recent exploration and publication of the exploration of Biblical geography by Robinson. And as for the Great Controversy being in the Bible, yes, reading the Bible from our 21 century culture and Greek thinking mindset it is not that clear. But as we learn more about the ancient culture and ideas that were in the minds of the writers and readers in the ancient world, they had many of the ideas that Mrs. White points out as part of their culture. So we cannot say that it is not in the Bible, it is there in ancient assumptions and we miss it due to our assumptions. Mrs. White fills that gap to get us closer to what the Bible is actually teaching on this point.

says the MEAT EATER lol There is actually a show called that! If you want to get grossed out watch. I know its on Netflix. No I dont watch it; except for a one time viewing at a friend's place.

In some parts of the world, probably, flesh meats have always been brought to church for potluck.

One big problem I have with the article is that no footnotes were given to point to the source of allegations. The end result makes the whole article come across as rather histrionic, and reminds me of how anyone can proffer any sort of accusations about anyone (or any institution), and get away with it in communities of readers who subscribe to the same beliefs.... much like the Salem Witch Trials. Bottom line (for me): give extant proof of the allegations — otherwise, don't bother me with insinuations and innuendos.

One last (?) comment: 1) The SDA denomination is a world-wide church. but, standards differ from place to place. The standards are not the same as to dress, food and Sabbath observance. 2) When people move to the United states from other countries, they bring with them the standards of their own country. "So, you will see flesh foods served at potlucks, typically identified as such. You will see different standards of Sabbath observance and different standards of dress.

I understand that there are examples in the article that actually happened. 1) I am aware of some in which the SDA Church took action, even to the extent of a pastor either resigning or being fired. But, the critics do not tell us that. Or they may say that such did not happen as quickly as it should have happened. Well, in many cases the critics simply do not know all of the facts. Folks, they do not need to know all. 2) If an unmarried woman become pregnant, we do not need to publish to the world that she was raped. I am aware of such. She should have the privacy that she needs. 3) If the charge is false, as I have seen, the Church may not be able to tell the true facts. Folks, the SDA Community at large, worldwide, does not have to know everything. 4) I am thinking of a scandal that has gone around the world. Action was not taken quickly. An investigation occurred. What is not known is that two (2) people were found to have culpability. Action occurred for both, commensurate to their individual responsibility. But, the critics only had it partly correct.

Let me address another complaint, that I quote below: 1) I attend a large SDA congregation. The pastoral staff sometimes preaches in jeans, and sometimes not. There is a reason for doing so. The pastoral staff is attempting to use the Sabbath services an evangelistic tool to reach the community that is living next door to the church building. In fact, one of the pastors has the specific job description of reaching out to that community. The Sr. pastor wants the person leaving the coffee shop next to the church building to be able to walk into the Sabbath services, wearing jeans and a plaid shirt, and feel welcomed. NOTE: Wake up and smell the roses folks. Some people just do not have "proper" clothing to wear. I once baptized a woman who had been wearing a dress to church that certain of my members found offensive, due to the length of the dress. [NOTE: It actually was not that short.] I informed them that it was the only dress she owned and she would attend church in jeans and a plaid shirt if she wore anything else. [NOTE: They took her shopping and purchased additional dresses for her.] 2) Today is Sabbath. I will wear a suit and a tie to church today. Two weeks ago, I wore jeans and a plaid shirt to church. I did so as part of my witness for Christ. You may not understand. You do not have to understand. If I had been on the platform that day, I would hae worn the jeans and plaid shirt. My wife wore similar attire to church that day. It was part of her witness for Christ. She gave a partial explaination to some people that day. The bottom line is: We ought to be more concerned about what happens on Sabbath morning than on what the pastor is wearing. If you attend a SDA Church than usually never has a community visitor attending, you should worry about that.

The author of that article has listed more than 50, if my count is correct, issues that he implies are present in the SDA Church today. I wonder, how many of those has he investigated to see if they are actually true. I wonder, how many has he studied in an attempt to determine the actual facts of the individual case. I ask this due to the fact that as I have often studied charges against the SDA Church, I have often found them to be based on falsehoods, at least in part. Yes, in some cased, I have found them to be true, and that the SDA denomination took appropriate action. As an example, the following quote is one of the charges that the author makes. Let us look at it to se what is true and what is false. What is true: A SDA School (Walla Walla University) did participate in a sporting event, during a time period that SDAs consider to be the Sabbath. But, that time period was NOT the Sabbath in the geographic location where the sporting event was played. Rather, it was the Sabbath in another part of the world where the person making the charge first lived.