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I think we are squabbling over frames of reference. And Piaget's ideas live on into adulthood psychology! Piaget was a child psychologist who discussed how children think the moon is following them when they are riding along in a car and the moon stays right there. So, while we usually refer to the sun setting and rising, really it is the rotation of the earth, but people commonly think of the earth as their reference point. We can argue over whether the sun stood still and how that occurred, but then try and explain the sun actually backing up in Hezekiah's day! For me, I just take the Bible at it's Word and assume that is exactly what happened. The earth stopped, rotated backwards, then resumed it's normal course. Apparently, this was enough to arouse the interest of astronomers all the way over in Babylon. Just for interest, everything in the universe is moving including the moon, the earth, the sun, the galaxy. Infact, the galaxy itself is moving thru space at over 1 million miles an hour! https://nightsky.jpl.nasa.gov/docs/HowFast.pdf Previously, I mentioned "frames of reference." This is an important point. I recall being in astronomy class and some in astronomy really struck me as possible being very different in the way it was presented. This was a frame of reference issue. I went over it in detail with the instructor and he agreed that it was very possible, but we would continue to think of it as we have been doing! One of these days I will have to really write it down and present it to some other astronomers. Interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tO-Bq_VOAk

As a historian I would believe you know the US is a republic not a democracy

Greetings stinsonmarri and bonnie, I have been surprised at the strength of feeling expressed in this thread, mainly concerning the voting for and the election of Biden or Trump. Possibly what is stated on this thread is a reflection of the strong feeling that still persists in the US after the elections. I would like to make a few comments and observations from a religious perspective, and also from the perspective of living here in Australia by comparison to the US. 1. The Election: 1a. I have never seen such excessive news coverage and other detail given by comparison to any previous election in the US or in any other country for that matter. There seems to have been unprecedented polarisation, not just the normal two groups supporting their normal preferred party and then those in between who change allegiance according to the individual candidate, his present policies and his past performance or record. Even here in Australia there was what I consider far too much news coverage of the US election. 1b. By comparison here in Australia, we have elections that run for about four weeks, and the party that obtains the majority of the seats in the House of Representatives forms the government, and the party decides the Prime Minister. As a result we have also had a change of Prime Minister a number of timers mid-term. The elections are soon forgotten and the politicians get down to running the country, supported by a very large public sector. 1c. From a religious perspective, both personal and with those of my fellowship, we do not partake in voting. In Australia voting is compulsory and we are fined if we do not vote. We are usually given exemption on the basis of our conscience, but we have to answer the electoral commission on each occasion stating the reason. My basis is that I believe that God rules in the kingdoms of men and God decides who will be given authority, sometimes good rulers and other times bad rulers according to His Purpose. God could well have used Trump to alter the situation in the Middle East, but possibly his work there may be complete, and there is now need for a different perspective and activity. I imagine that SDAs have a different perspective on both of these items, as it appears from this thread that SDAs vote, and feel strongly about THEIR choice, and the SDAs are not particularly looking for the fulfilment of Bible prophecy concerning the Middle East. They seem to be only looking for the national Sunday Law. 2. The Virus: I can only commiserate with you for the problems that you have in the US. We have had a few outbreaks in Australia, but it seems to be under reasonable control. Possibly we will not fare as well in winter. I could relate a few personal examples of my experiences of successful isolation, both very early, January-February and also March-April. These steps were taken on the basis of minimal information and warning, but taken very seriously at the time. I also live next door to one of the chief medical officers in the lung and chest department in our large regional hospital and could mention a few things. A simple comparison between the number of cases and percentages in the US and Australia is revealing, but we are all usually wiser after the event. 3. Guns, Violence and Demonstrations: We have much less guns here in Australia, part of a more recent deliberate policy. We cannot carry guns in public. We seem to have less violence and demonstrations. I hope what remains of the transition period will not be chaotic, but if feelings are still running high among sedate SDAs, I do not know what it is like in other segments. Kind regards Trevor

You know what makes it so sad, is all the SDA caught up in Trump. The problem is just like Israel of old who followed Baal during the time of Elijah, the time for the POWER that he had is coming to those who follow the Bible and not a man. The sealing is getting ready to take place and I just would like ask, where is the suppose to be Sunday Blue law vs the Sabbath? We certainly do not hear about that lately. Oh, the other one is the papacy! Evangelical preachers have fallen out with the pope, he washes gay people feet! How many of you are ready to be thrown into jail because the Sunday keeping folks were going to go against the SDA. What happen to that old sermon, I have heard during the Trump era. Oh, yeah SDA are evangelicals too, right? You are jumping all over and I have no idea what you said. Just a question, exactly how do you know what will happen in the future concerning the Sunday law? The sealing is going to take place WHEN? Evangelical preachers have fallen out with the pope, he washes gay people feet!. This means what? I imagine that the pope is not alone in this. Horrors of horrors, it has even happened in our church. You always seem to skip over the reason you support Biden, proven liar and cheat that he is. If as you claim Trump is a liar, what on earth allows you to accept another man that is a proven liar? I did not vote for Trump because I consider him a paragon of virtue. I accept that he is not. Nor can I read his mind as you seem to be able to do. I voted for him because I agreed with his policies. All of them? No, but certainly far more than Clinton or Biden. So I guess if that makes me a Trump follower or "Trump worshipper" or racist in your eyes I will live just fine with that and not lose any sleep over it.

stinsonmarri, I assume you understand that most of the individuals pardoned by any president is for laack of a better term "a crook". That is the reason they need a pardon or a commutation of their sentence. Did you actually take the time to read those that Obama pardoned or commuted their sentence Bradley Manning , who leaked hundreds of thousands of sensitive government documents to WikiLeaks? You forgot the convicted terrorist Oscar Lopez Rivera,leader of a Puerto Rican terrorist group. His group was responsible for 130 attacks in the US. There are others but you can look it up if you want some light reading concerning the man you "worship" How about Nancy Pelosi and her statements you claim are fake news. Look it up yet? You don't judge and condemn? This ridiculous comment over the picture says you do. How do you know what he is thinking? Because you don't like the way he is smiling? Be careful, others may look at your picture and know the evil you are thinking. Unlike you, I do not know all that Biden and his son might be guilty of. I know it doesn't pass the smell test. I know the DOJ doesn't start an investigation for the fun of it. Pretty sure they had enough to convince them there was something there, regardless of what you claim to know. I would be interested to know how a man like Biden became so extremely wealthy working a government job for 47 years. Far more interested in that than Trump's tax returns before he became a government employee. As a concerned and knowledgable citizen you should be sure and report those money favors paid for these pardons and by who. Or is that just a condemnation and judgement again?

Bonnie, thank-you for your comments and welcome back! Restraint?! Guess I learned that one through a long career of taking care of brain damaged patients. I was known as one who did not get too annoyed taking care of confused, screaming, tied down patients who often could not be medicated into sedation for their condition. That has been a strange part of this whole thing going back for some time. Supposedly, Trump made a remark one time and that has set him up to be frequently trashed here on Adventistan with long strings of pejorative adjectives. However, the problems of the leaders of the Democratic party seem to be just OK. Doesn't matter if Biden eulogized Robert Byrd (ex-KKK) at his funeral, doesn't matter that Biden was accused of assaulting Tara Reade but we will attempt to destroy Justice Kavanaugh, doesn't matter if Democrats support abortion which in many big cities results in more black babies being terminated than born, or that Margaret Sanger (who founded Planned Parenthood) is a hero of the Democrats and spoke at Klan rallies and was known for wanting the elimination of "inferior races", and you could go on and on. So, Trump is severely trashed and anyone who supports him including Dr Ben Carson (supposedly a family friend of marristinson's), any Adventist who supports Trump, and often myself. I do not expect anyone to accept the things I post. Just ponder them and deal respectfully with them. My favorite movie line, "Well, what would you do with a brain if you had one?" Happens all the time from marristinson. Appreciating what he has done for America is not the same as worshipping him. Lots of public figures can be appreciated, even Biblical figures. Yeah, sure. Trump can be blunt at times, but he has gotten more done that he promised when running for president than any other recent president in memory. A smooth talking snake oil salesman he is not. He also fires a lot of people. He is not a politician, but a businessman and expects employees to do their job. Too long, people get into government and do little to earn the money they take from the pockets of the public.

Merry Christmas to everyone. No christmas at our house this year because of covid. I am not that afraid of it but my husband has COPD along with other health issues. Family has to many contacts with others and there is no way of knowing . JUst the two of us. .So I am having a pity party remembering Christmas past. This is typically Christmas at the Odenthal's

Stuff like this is so demeaning to those you are addressing . never served pork or anything unclean because we are not touch it! I am vegan now but I served the turkey, chicken and good ole collard and turnip green without pork and the loved. What is your point? You think the rest of the ignorant SDA's would serve pork or unaware of the instruction not to serve unclean food? Certainly glad you didnt I enjoy christmas with my family and will continue to do so.

How silly. I listened to Nancy Pelosi in an interview with a reporter. She admitted to it,in fact seemed rather proud of the fact. I don't care who you work for. Nancy Pelosi delaying the bill would be a rather strange fact to share with her followers. Yup Trump pardoned those that had been crooks. Same as Obama did. Obama pardoned far more I believe and a quick check of the pardons by both men will show very similar acts. Maybe Obama loves crooks that is why his administration loves China. Do you have any idea how silly it sounds to judge Trump a KGB spy and that he became a notorious mobster. You know this How? CNN? I have a little trouble when someone gets on their pious hobby horse and starts repeating stuff that CNN spews as fact. It does appear tho that there might be a little problem with the Chinese and the president you worship. One thing I do find unimpressive and unbelievable is CNN and their Russian hoax that was all verified by anonymous sources. So far concerning Biden and China we have real live people step forward with very credible emails etc to back up what they claim. You know as well as I that Biden is a liar. Proven beyond doubt. Hunter Biden is a liar. Proven beyond a doubt.He recently denied paternity of his son. Claiming in effect "he never had sex with that woman" What did the DNA say. Yup he certainly did. That child will now grow up with a public record of his father denying him. Now I havent seen where you have expressed any concern over China and Biden and what the Chinese have on Biden,that might warrant some concern by you. I feel that ole Trump had his hand in this mess, which means he is a traitor, besides a liar, whoremonger, cheater, You are accusing and judging the president of the US based on your feelings, Is the instruction to do this something you have found in your biblical research. In fact I think if you search just a bit harder you will find how wrong that is You don't seem to have a problem with the lies of the leader you worship. Why is that? He has been proven to be a liar since his college days/ Seven women have accused Biden of sexual misconduct. I feel he is guilty and a whoremonger and cheater. His current wife's ex husband says pretty emphatically he is a cheater. I really don"t care who you vote for or what politician you "worship" but the posts that come across as so holier than thou and you are the only one that seems to understand is really amazing.

Photodude, I admire your restraint. Anyone that has a problem with who Trump has pardoned need only to look back at Clintons pardon record. Most of the ones pardoned I believe got caught up in the Russian collusion hoax. You have Pelosi seeming to be proud of the fact she delayed by her own admission a covid relief bill. What a gal. American people are suffering untold misery while she plays her games. Haven't heard anyone explain how they rationalize their acceptance of the proven long standing dishonest character of Biden. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together should not have a problem understanding that we likely have a president that has dirty hands with his son over China. Can you imagine if that had been Trump and one of his sons. It took four years over a imaginary made up collusion with Russia. The heads of the left would have exploded in excitement. I understand many do not like Trump's personality, but what they blame and ridicule Trump for can be laid in Biden's lap. Just amazing to me that those on the left are absolutely obsessed with Trump and their hatred of him. It is quite a nasty, arrogant accusation to say you worship Trump. A person can appreciate the good that has been done and the gains made in the Trump admin without worshipping Trump. I hope approval of Biden and enthusiasm for what they believe he will do doesn"t mean "worship of Biden".

Paul, thank you for illustrating previous point that your major problem is you instance on an absolute either or. In this case you insist that I either accept that the verse says X or that I doubt the validity of Scripture. In my experience, I have learned many times over the years that I do not have a perfect understanding of what Scripture says. When I graduated from college I thought that I could then write a statement of belief that was final and would never change. I was wrong. The Holy Spirit had more to teach me that I realized. Over the years, I have been taught much. I expect to be taught more over whatever years I have left to live. In brief: I believe that the Bible is an accurate revelation of whatever God want to teach us. However, I do not believe that I fully understand everything that God wants me to learn and I do believe that I have more to learn. Your comments to me presents yourself as being one who knows it all. I acknowledge that other statements that you have made present yourself as one who is willing to learn and does not know it all. So, you are not consistent in the manner in which you present yourself. As you point out, I did express doubt. Your statement to the effect that I expressed doubt in the validity of the Bible was false. It was am expression of doubt in my understanding of the Bible. I consider it reasonable to believe that there are areas of the Bible in which I do not have a final, complete understanding,. Just as I also believe that you do not have such, even if you think that you do. As to some of the responses that could be made: * The Hebrew word that has been translated as "stand still" in the KJV English can be translated as "be motionless." But, that is not the only manner in which it can be translated. * It has been suggested that a miracle was involved, but not that of stopping the motion of a celestial body. That miracle could have been in the change in the refraction of the light from the sun in a manner that the sun appeared to remain in place. I will point out that every day of the year, due to the refraction of the light from the sun, at sunset, the sun is actually below the curvature of the Earth at a time in which the sun appears to be still above the curvature of the Earth. But, that is such common knowledge that I assume that you already know that. * It has been suggested that the Biblical writer used the common language of that day, rather than to make a scientific statement. Well, that is exactly what we do today in our use of the terms "sunrise" and "sunset." Those terms imply that it is the sun that moves around the Earth. We all know better. But we use them regardless. By the way, the scientific community, that knows better publishes tables for the sunrise and the sunsets. Paul, I have given you some possible understandings of the Biblical text. I do not consider any of them to be perfect and final. Therefore, I am willing to say that I do not have a good response. I have more to learn. I suggest the same for you. On a personal basis, I welcome you to this forum. You have challenged me and I appreciate that. But, I will suggest that if you wish to participate with us in this discussion that you come down from your "high horse,' be a little less judgmental, and a little more willing to admit that you probably do not know it all.