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I appreciate your answer. I'll need to read this over several times but I wanted you to know I find it of value.

I share these sentiments. I've had some gay friends through the years. I was occasionally approached by gay men for different purposes. A couple of times in SDA contexts before Kinship existed. There are men who just prefer the company of other men, not necessarily for nefarious purposes. Cardinal Newman had a close male friend for years. Of course there were whispers but unless actually caught in the "act" whispers are all that they were/are. Jews are very strict about the accusation of adultery, requiring rather explicit views of the act, before someone can be condemned. There was a time guys could room together with out being alphabeted but not nowadays. Homosexuals come in different stripes. Well adjusted ones just live their lives. Being gay is just one aspect of a life that they enjoy and is a blessing to others. They don't need validation from a congregation or a denomination. They get validated by distinguishing themselves in their professions, not their bedroom habits. Then there are the constricted types who crave acceptance and validation. In a sense, they are seeking permission to be gay. Validation form a church is quite a feather in their cap. People don't need a denomination or a congregation to have a relationship with Christ.

✅ By My Spirit Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

Bonnie, you do not know this. This was back in the late '50s. I haven't told the entire story because all of it doesn't need to be told. What is important and what I shared was her faith. I think people should respect someone's testimony and leave it at that. I provided no matter what, faith in the truth can move mountains.

Well that hope will never happen. He is facing all type of jail time. He talk to much and boy the people he chose to do his dirty work were not of sound mind. That's what happen when you pay for things of less quality. You had people who would talk for you and you were so sure of yourself that you were recorded trying to fraudulently get votes. You got caught on tape in Georgia! With Giuliani as your lawyer, he is a time bomb all by himself and will be losing his license and getting jail time. He will talk under pressure boy that will be the day. Sidney Powell what can you say being nice who have to pay billions of dollars. She need to see a doctor she has mental issues. So, I doubt it! Be sure your sins will find you out when you tell the big lie!

? He is a rewarder ? Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him : for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I do not know him. I'm thinking more of the general approach. Our pioneers were kicked out of different churches because their ideas did not fit in the narrow creeds. They decided to form a church that had room for different ideas, holding to a few landmarks, and as long as you were not fanatical, you had freedom to follow your conscience. From time to time they would form a list of fundamental beliefs, but they differed from creeds in that creeds tried to be specific and laid the borders for their group. Our fundamental beliefs (or what ever they called them from time to time) tended to be written in more vague language and gave a general neighborhood of where our beliefs tended to be. Thus our church had a tapestry of different flavors. At our high points we all learn to work together and respect each other. At our low points one or more of us decide that we are the ONLY TRUE version of Adventism, and everyone else is wrong. When I was at Andrews, I spent hours in the White Estate vault, usually for class but other times just to read. While I did not plan this, and due to our classes at Atlantic Union College, and a fantastic campmeeting series by Ralph and Beatrice Neal (or Neil?) from Union College, on how Adventist truth tends to be divided with "New Theology of The Desmond Ford flavor" on the one side, and the so called "Historic Adventists" on the other. I did not see this as a major issue for our time, thus I did not do a research paper on this. I was more interested in looking into events in Mrs. White's life or related to my research papers at the time, Biblical geography/history/culture. But in session after session, topic after topic I kept coming across correspondence between mostly Mrs. White, sometimes Willie, with a group of ministers. Since these letters sounded so similar, and a number of the people were an "Elder W" or last names that started with "W" I thought that this was only one pastor who was a pain in the neck to Mrs. White and/or Willie. However, as time went by I noticed that these letters were not only to an "Elder W" but other letters as well, and other last names, and that there were at least 3 different people with the last names that started with "W" in this correspondence. Yet, the letters were incredibly similar. None were radical enough to leave the church or anything like that, but the Whites did complain that they did not understand Mrs. White's thought and therefore, despite massive quoting from her writings, they were using those quotes to force members to push their views onto the rest of the church. They would reply that they were indeed understanding her and using her correctly, and that it was others (often naming others, frequently Willie, Prescott or Daniels) of polluting her mind against them and that if she knew the facts she would not be writing them testimonies, but would fully endorse them. While I did NOT find this in any of the correspondence, I did find flyers to be handed out from the first decade of the 1900s warning about dangerous things going on in the church. Among these were how Mrs. White had apostatized, some suggested that a Jesuit had infiltrated her inner circle and was controlling her thoughts and writings. One or two even suggested that Mrs. White had left the church, became a Jesuit and was using her old role as a prophet to lead the church into apostasy. Some of the evidence included her not totally rejecting Jones and Wagner in 1888, and to not trust her post 1888 writings. That she became a Trinitarian, and that she was critical of faithful Adventist pastors, and would name names that I recognized from the correspondence. Some recommended that members not read her post 1888 writings, or to read her through those pastors who knew what she wrote that came from God and what came from other sources. After Andrews, I was in the U. S. Army, stationed at Ft. Lewis Washington. Many in the churches around Ft. Lewis had a journal published in the area, titled "Our Firm Foundation." I read many copies, but noticed that I kept finding familiar information, and checking the footnotes, there was a lot of quoting from the pastors from the above discussed correspondence. Looking at the writings from these so called "Historic Adventists" over the years, I noticed that after Mrs. White died, and especially after Willie, Prescott and Daniels died, the writings of this sub group changed from picturing them as doing horrible things that were leading the church into heresy, that they suddenly were baptized into good, faithful "Historic Adventists" and the ideas that bothered them were now brought into the church by later generations. Now this is an aspect of the tapestry. There are things that they point out that I find useful. We have the freedom to share what we love about our understanding of Adventism, but we need to allow others to weigh the evidence and make choices. Sadly, from back to the letters between the leader's who's thought developed into this tapestry of Adventism up to modern groups such as Fulcrum7, there has been too much of trying to scare Adventists into joining their faithful group. Too much a building of distrust of the rest of the church and demanding the church to make their version of Adventism the only official version. Now, as to this specific article: There are places where this topic is open for discussion. We have the traditional understanding and our proof texts. But as these proof texts are being studied closely, they are not saying what we thought they were saying. The Old Testament verses are given in either the context on how the Hebrews were not to come to worship and hold the orgies that the Canaanites believed they needed to do to help out Baal and the gods of life to get victory over the Leviathan and the gods of death. Or in the context of how the Canaanites thought that through that activity that they could steal some of the life forces from their victims, so that food that would have grown in their victims garden will now grow in the perpetuator's garden. Flocks that would have been born to their victim's flocks will now be born to the perpetuator's flocks. Children that would have been born to their victim's wife will now be born to the perpetuator's wife. In the New Testament we find these two situations again, with Roman's 2, first of all picturing this as the punishment for being idolaters, instead of the act that is being punished. And thus it is again saying that the reason why the Canaanites ended up having their worship service and this strange thought that does not work, on thinking that they could steal the life forces of another is the result of idolatry. The third New Testament context is a word that should not be translated "homosexual" but "pedophiles", since it is adults abusing children. None of these are what we have people today struggling with. Theologians are discussing whether we should take a narrow application of these texts and only apply it to the context and thus they might not apply to what today's issue is. Others are discussing whether we should take a wide application and apply it to more than the actual context. This is a difficult job for our leaders. I'm glad that I don't have to deal with this. An additional issue is while we would recommend them to not join our church, there are still issues in how we minister to the broader community both within and outside of Christianity. They may just like his editing skills.

? filleth with goodness ☺️ Psalm 107:9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.

Cybercrime happens. Probably every person reading this message has experienced someone attempting to defraud them. For an interesting article on the demographics of cybercrime, see: https://www.malwarebytes.com/resources/2021-demographics-of-cybercrime-report/index.html

Happy Sabbath everyone

The real pity is in the constant cries of racism has reverse effects People are sick to death.being told.to spologize for being born white .That alone Makes them a racist Just the last 3 weeks three people that I know well had something intesting to say about Constantly being told they are racist has lost all meaning but more that they tell evrryone to just plain shutup about race. They are sick of the accusations based on the color of their skin. Just dont ask them if they are.rscist, they are just saying you may not like the answer

So, you have posted a 3-year old quote of mine. I will suggest that there are several other comments that I made that might be helpful in understanding where I am on this subject. To suggest that I was unfair to Pam: Pam is perfectly capable of telling me so herself, if that is her thought, as she has done so some times in the past. Frankly I do not think that is her thought. As has been said on previous posts. This is not the place to dig up the previous controversy.

This is an obituary thread, and the above comment is out of line, in my opinion. Perhaps the forum should have a "venom" thread, where people could malign the dead and keep old wounds open by an inflicting a drop or two of vitriol every so often.

Gregory,

Excellent Gregory

Thank you, Gregory!

O.K. I will abide by your desire. I agree that Venden did much good. I can believe that God used him in a needed way. He has had a very positive effect on my and my understanding of God. In recognizing his humanness I Do not believe that his good work is made of none effect. Rather I believe that I is in accord with the Biblical picture of people--God uses imperfect people. Their imperfections are not excused. They are not made to be of minor matter. They often face grave consequences. but, God works in and through them. In doing so we obtain a better picture of God and how God works in human life. The idea that some people have that God cannot use someone who has sinned is simply rooted in the Doctrine of the Devil that attempts to convince us that our sins are too great for God to forgive. Venden did a great work and it appears that his time on earth came to an end. Such will happen to all of us.

Amen!

Yeah. Like YEARS ago. Not now. Let the poor man rest in the grave for a few weeks at minimum.

I agree that it shouldn't be discussed in this particular thread, but would be better in a separate thread.

I was wondering how long it would be when "that" would come up. Remember Isaiah 29:21,22, which is a warning against watching for a person to stumble, and then for turning aside the just for a thing of nought. To me that is what is happening here- the good things that Venden did being made into nothing by "that". It is after all, as Pam noted, an obituary. Let's keep it such as a mark of respect at least in this thread.

Quote: I tell you what - he's brought more people to the Kingdom than I ever have! I can agree with the positive statement about him. But, the Bible is very clear: It presents people (David, for example) as they were. David sinned greatly. Yet he was used by God.

Quote: wow. just...wow. I think this "obituary" thread is shameful. Woody is right. Amen, Pam. Now is NOT the time to dredge up trash on the man or anyone associated with him. I tell you what - he's brought more people to the Kingdom than I ever have!

Whatever the case, Morris Vendon does now rest in peace.

Please note: I have never said that I thought Venden was guilty. I may or may not so believe. I have simply said that I believe Claudia. How can I do this? In the hospital where I work every employee has the right to ask another person to assist them in a disciplinary hearing. IL have accepted that role in an effort to reach out to staff. In the U.S. it is believed that adverse charges should be sustained on the basis of clear and convincing evidence, not on the basis of whether or not the person did the deed. On several occasions I have argued that the evidence was not clear and convincing and the hearing officer has agreed. All charges on that issue were dropped and the employe's record was cleared. In some cases the decision has been that a lessor offense was sustained. In regard to Venden: I believe Claudia. However, I am willing to say that the evidence against him was not clear and convincing and I might have found that the charge against him was not sustained. Frankly, I was troubled by that conclusion on my part back when it occurred. I remain troubled by it today. But, that is life. But, I am comfortable with the fact that God uses faulty people and that I believe that God used Venden in a great way.

And we might need this more than we think. Thank you for this reminder.

Morris and I attended the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary then also called Potomac University around 1957. My best memories of him there was when he and his brother sang duets together. I trust they will still be singing in the world made new by our Creator. He and I were the same age. When he died he lived very close to my brother-in-law's daughter. She visited him the day before he died.

Claudia Burrows: YEs, her name will be ever associated with that of Venden. In fairness to the truth that must be recognized. Frankly, I believed Claudia; to me, her story fit a pattern that I had seen before. However, I will say that Venden was a great man in leading the denomination to a greater understanding of grace and Righteousness by faith. How to I draw these conflicting aspects together: Simply that God uses imperfect people.

The Lord forgives even if we cannot. Let us remember this. Suzanne

I've met him a number of times and read several of his books. I am sad to hear of his passing.

I have two or three books by Morris Venden. There's a way he expressed certain concepts that stuck with me. In fact I've been thinking about re reading one of his books that I already have. I'm sorry to hear about all this. I didn't know anything was wrong, or that he was in ill health.

Reliable reports have confirmed the Morris Venden passed away on the weekend. Details to follow as revealed.

How can you compare M. Venden to David. He used others to satisfy his own lust and preached a false theology. He was wicked and only God knows if he repented. The church covered up his transgressions and continued to allow him to cause harm to others. May his wicked soul rest in peace.

Morris Venden was born to Melvin Venden and Ivy Ruth Venden.[1] He graduated from Fresno Adventist Academy in 1949, and received a degree from Pacific Union College, as well as several honorary degrees. He died on Feb. 10, 2013, in College Place, Washington. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Venden