32 Killed 29 wounded in early reports at Virginia Tech.

[Clio]

I find this whole incident interestingly chaotic (in addition to sad, horrible, and scary) yet at the same time orchestrated. I expected to see a few things when the story first broke:

lone gunman

metally disturbed

clear indications of guilt

and some glaring inconsistencies

For those who watch and surf the net here are some inconsistencies with links if in writing:

Doc on CNN says all injured and dead have 3 wounds 2 chest one head. Question, how do you rack up 20+ kills and 20+ wounded with just two handguns? Especially a college student? How did he stay so calm with what must have been a scene of pandimonium

Sorry no link was broadcast.

The guns have their serial numbers scraped off:

A federal law enforcement official said Tuesday he had been told by other federal law enforcement officials that the two guns recovered in the shooting had had their serial numbers scraped off. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced.

[link to http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=nation_world&id=5216919#]

Yet, the kid is reported to have a backpack with a receipt for the Glock purchased on March 13th in the bag. As well as comments indicating that law enforcement is having difficulty finding any information on him. There is a quote that he distinguished himself by being anonymous in a small department. Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/virginia_tech_shooting;_ylt=Ar18g7.zHkV_EaGFCHPr3qGm1OFF

So how does an anonymous college kid achieve the kind of marksmanship that professional swat teams only dream of in a total scene of pandimonium with a gun he bought a scant 36 days prior?

There's an awful lot of questions that still need answering here.

[David Koot]

Question, how do you rack up 20+ kills and 20+ wounded with just two handguns?

Easy. If each weapon has a staggered clip, holding say 15 rounds (only 9mm), AND, as reported, he carried extra magazines with him, it wouldn't be a problem. As for each victim being shot three times, twice in chest and once in the head, I would guess that is an exaggeration. It may have been true of some. Others were only wounded. But, a 9mm Glock can be repeat-fired fairly quickly. Years ago, when I practiced with a Colt M1911A1 (cal. .45 ACP) I could get off five shots a second, and that gun packs a bigger wallop than a puny 9mm.

Dave

[Clio]

The doctor broadcasting on CNN was specific. 2 chest, 1 head for those dead and the still living also appeared to be botched 3-taps. He was commenting on the oddness of it.

He said in his experience, given the pandimonium that must have been in that room, that there would be some hand shots, some stomache shots, some leg wounds.

So even with what you state, David, this is a college senior who is so proficient that he is that accurate even while changing clips?

3 X 30 is 90 bullets for the dead, that's 6 clips. Plus 3 bullets each in the wounded or since they are still alive, 2 bullets maybe the headshot misses... ok still 3 another 6 clips, and achieves a kill ratio that would make him an expert marksman.

An awful lot of unanswered questions.

[David Koot]

It is, indeed, most extraordinary, Clio. While I can see how he could have got off that many shots, I fail to understand how he could have achieved such a high kill ratio. People move. Especially will they move when under fire. They will move fast. I quite honestly am mystified how he could be so effective. Or, why SOMEONE didn't rush him. Perhaps it happened so quickly that there simply wasn't time. The ONLY way I can visualize, is if he had a machine pistol. However, in that case the hits would be random. I am very puzzled by that. By the way, one advantage of the 9mm is that it doesn't have much of a kick. But, still that was some pretty fancy shooting. To make it that much more puzzling, he apparently had recently purchased the weapon(s). It takes quite awhile to famiiliarize oneself with the idiocyncrisies of a particular handgun. It doesn't happen overnight. Hours and hours of combat practice would be needed (not just target practice). I doubt he had that.

[Amelia]

The 9mm clip holds 18 rounds and he was carrying many extra clips. That gun automatically loads a round after firing making it a semi automatic handgun. As for accuracy, we dont know his background, maybe he went to a shooting range. As for not being able to indentify him, he carried no id and shot himself in the face at the end. No criminal record so no fingerprints on file.

[Amelia]

It is, indeed, most extraordinary, Clio. While I can see how he could have got off that many shots, I fail to understand how he could have achieved such a high kill ratio. People move. Especially will they move when under fire. They will move fast. I quite honestly am mystified how he could be so effective. Or, why SOMEONE didn't rush him. Perhaps it happened so quickly that there simply wasn't time. The ONLY way I can visualize, is if he had a machine pistol. However, in that case the hits would be random. I am very puzzled by that. By the way, one advantage of the 9mm is that it doesn't have much of a kick. But, still that was some pretty fancy shooting. To make it that much more puzzling, he apparently had recently purchased the weapon(s). It takes quite awhile to famiiliarize oneself with the idiocyncrisies of a particular handgun. It doesn't happen overnight. Hours and hours of combat practice would be needed (not just target practice). I doubt he had that.

Old building. Small classrooms. One door. Gunman stood at the door.

[bevin]

Quote:

Or, why SOMEONE didn't rush him.

Because we have a society were people are taught to be passive in the face of violence and/or confusion

I see it all the time

As soon as he opened fire people should have started throwing things at him and rushing him - instead they dive for cover and cower

/Bevin

[lazarus]

Quote:

Or, why SOMEONE didn't rush him.

As NRO's designated chickenhawk, let me be the one to ask: Where was the spirit of self-defense here? Setting aside the ludicrous campus ban on licensed conceals, why didn't anyone rush the guy? It's not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons. He had two handguns for goodness' sake—one of them reportedly a .22.

...

http://www.humanevents.com/rightangle/index.php?id=22093&title=where_were_the_men

[Woody]

Quote:

The doctor broadcasting on CNN was specific.

Clio ... the problem here is that you were listening to CNN. You need to listen to a more legitimate news channel.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Fox is tends to report news by spamming the airwaves with rumor, half truths and hearsay; THEN make corrections as they go. It's all in an attempt to be first with breaking news.

I think that is true, however they also make a point of saying it is rumor or unconfirmed.

[lazarus]

Humour has alot to do with timing Red. I made that joke about 1 hour ago!

[Robert]

FOX New described the killer today as a "Mad Man". It goes along with my belief that someone who does that is not in his right mind. However ... the news did report that he was being treated for Depression with drugs. Do you know how drug interactions can effect people???

The cause is and has always been human nature, period! The sooner the self-righteous out there arrive at this fact the sooner they will see their need of Christ. But people will deny what Paul explicitly states, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." That's the problem...."The world" is too proud to face the facts....So they give us this BS.

Robert

[Woody]

Humour has alot to do with timing Red. I made that joke about 1 hour ago!

I am an equal opportunity humorist.

[Bravus]

My take, which will probably annoy you, so don't read it: http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=787

[Woody]

Nothing wrong with that Bravus. You take is my take.

[Robert]

:tu

[Dr. Shane]

I don't think more guns is the answer but banning guns isn't the answer either. As I noted earlier, guns are illegal in El Salvador so only the gangs have them. In El Salvador gangs actually turn public streets into toll roads and charge people to use them.

It is well established that countries where guns are illegal have a high rate of hot home robberies. That is where thieves break into homes when the homeowners are there. When thieves have guns and law-abiding citizens do not, the thieves can do as they please. My in-laws in El Salvador have been robbed three times while at home.

People go crazy and do crazy things. If this guy didn't have a gun, he could have just as easily made pipe bombs and ran down the hall tossing them into classrooms and easily killing more than he did.

It is a tragedy that didn't have to happen. However, statistically, 45 people die every day at the hands of drunk drivers in America. There is no excuse for that either.

[Bravus]

This guy wasn't a gang member. And the problem in El Salvador is essentially a law enforcement problem, rather than specifically a gun problem.

Agreed absolutely on the drunk drivers.

[there buster]

Quote:

My take, which will probably annoy you

No, it disappoints me. Predictable and misses the larger picture.

In January 2002, there was another shooting spree at another Virginia institution of higher learning, the Appalachian School of Law. The gunman, Peter Odighizuwa, killed three, and probably would have killed more but for another student's gun:

Students ended the rampage by confronting and then tackling the gunman, officials said.

"We saw the shooter, stopped at my vehicle and got out my handgun and started to approach Peter," Tracy Bridges, who helped subdue the shooter with other students, said on NBC's "Today" show. "At that time, Peter threw up his hands and threw his weapon down. Ted was the first person to have contact with Peter, and Peter hit him one time in the face, so there was a little bit of a struggle there."

Notice that the second gun wasn't even fired! As soon as it was produced, the first gunman gave up. News reports in the New York Times and Washington Post omitted the information about the second gun, stating only that other students 'wrestled the gunman to the ground.' Couldn't have a gun actually saving lives, now could we?

There have been a number of studies done on the number of lives saved by responsible use of guns every year, but, like the Appalachian School of Law case, for some very mysterious reason--couldn't be bias--the stories are actually suppressed. Maybe it's just an excuse for the newsrooms to ignore news they don't like.

Before people jump to conclusions, I have never owned a gun. But all of my neighbors, farmers, own guns. And this is a very safe area. Amazingly, all the nearby guns haven't leaped out of their cabinets and started firing indiscriminately into crowds.

[Robert]

"We saw the shooter, stopped at my vehicle and got out my handgun and started to approach Peter," Tracy Bridges, who helped subdue the shooter with other students, said on NBC's "Today" show. "At that time, Peter threw up his hands and threw his weapon down. Ted was the first person to have contact with Peter, and Peter hit him one time in the face, so there was a little bit of a struggle there."

So if practically everyone carries a gun the world will suddenly be a much safer place? I don't think so. Remember the wild west?

[Robert]

People go crazy and do crazy things.

MSNBC is reporting that the gunman was isolated, bullied and picked on by other students.

Revenge is a powerful passion. Been there myself. I was picked on, but not at some Public School, it was at a SDA School my grandparents sent me to.

My grandfather hated guns (and didn't have any) so I was never tempted to take a gun to school. Instead I started taking Martial Art classes, which led into kickboxing. Many a bully had his ego deflated, only I got the blame while the other kids got off Scott free. I was the bad kid.

Anyway, while I do not condone what this young man did, I understand his rage. Kids/young people can be extremely cruel.!

[Dr. Shane]

In studies involving interviews of felons, one of the reasons the majority of burglars try to avoid occupied homes is the chance of getting shot. (Increasing the odds of arrest is another.) A study of Pennsylvania burglary inmates reported that many burglars refrain from late-night burglaries because it's hard to tell if anyone is home, several explaining "That's the way to get shot." (Rengert G. and Wasilchick J., Suburban Burglary: A Time and a Place for Everything, 1985, Springfield, IL: Charles Thomas.)

By comparing criminal victimization surveys from Britain and the Netherlands (countries having low levels of gun ownership) with the U.S., Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck determined that if the U.S. were to have similar rates of "hot" burglaries as these other nations, there would be more than 450,000 additional burglaries per year where the victim was threatened or assaulted. (Britain and the Netherlands have a "hot" burglary rate near 45% versus just under 13% for the U.S., and in the U.S. a victim is threatened or attacked 30% of the time during a "hot" burglary.)

Source: Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.

[Bravus]

I have owned and used guns myself in the past, and I'm not, in a general sense, anti-gun. The specific attitude I was targetting in my blog post was 'more guns = more safety'. I can definitely see how a gun in the hands of a safe and sensible person can quickly solve a situation like this one, and the story Ed cited is a great example. But at the same time, without guns in the community, the situation doesn't arise in the first place and need to be solved. And you can guarantee that keeping guns in the hands of the safe and sane means that they will be accessible to the unsafe and insane. No, your neighbours' guns haven't leapt out of their cabinets and shot people... but have any of them been burglarised and end up in the hands of criminals?

Meh, no further debate from me. Everyone has their mind made up on this issue already because it's been discussed extensively. Let me vent, just a little, OK?

[Amelia]

Quote:

I don't think more guns is the answer but banning guns isn't the answer either. As I noted earlier, guns are illegal in El Salvador so only the gangs have them. In El Salvador gangs actually turn public streets into toll roads and charge people to use them.

It is well established that countries where guns are illegal have a high rate of hot home robberies. That is where thieves break into homes when the homeowners are there. When thieves have guns and law-abiding citizens do not, the thieves can do as they please. My in-laws in El Salvador have been robbed three times while at home.

Isn't it also true that many Mexican, Central and So. American states police are corrupt beyond belief?

[Bravus]

Hmm, apparently it was evolution and abortion. Who knew?

“We live in an era when public high schools and colleges have all but banned God from science classes. In these classrooms, students are taught that the whole universe, including plants and animals — and humans — arose by natural processes. Naturalism (in essence, atheism) has become the religion of the day and has become the foundation of the education system (and Western culture as a whole). The more such a philosophy permeates the culture, the more we would expect to see a sense of purposelessness and hopelessness that pervades people’s thinking. In fact, the more a culture allows the killing of the unborn, the more we will see people treating life in general as ‘cheap.’”

So saith Ken Ham, a 'leading creationist activist'.