Coffee - Health Food!

[Taylor]

OK just trying to understand here. Because the Bible doesn't specifically mention coffee or drugs...then you can't say it is a sin?

I have another question. If the Bible specifically mentions the Sabbath as being the 7th day, or that when people die they don't go straight to heaven or hell, or that when Jesus comes back it will be a visible, audible event (not the secret rapture), then to disbelieve those would be a sin because they are clearly set forth? (Now the sin might not be "accounted" to your account because you might be a good Bible believer who simply hasn't discovered the truth about the Sabbath or the state of the dead or the second coming.) God says that at the time of their ignorance God winked at, but it also says we are to study like the bereans to see if these things are so. So to me, sin doesn't cease to be sin because I don't know about it, but it isn't accounted to my record as sin if I simply haven't had the opportunity to know and I haven't rejected truth.

What do you think?

[Woody]

Quote:

OK just trying to understand here. Because the Bible doesn't specifically mention coffee or drugs...then you can't say it is a sin?

It's a sin for me. I really don't know if you consider it a sin.

[Taylor]

Well my question actually wasn't about coffee it was about what can we qualify as "sin". If the Bible is very clear on something, i.e. it says you will be lost for it, or that it will be a test, or that you can be majorly deceived if you don't believe the truth then is it ok to be clear in the presentation of that truth or that point? (Such as the Sabbath, state of the dead) without being judgemental?

[Woody]

Taylor .... It is my belief that we do not all have the same intelligence and background. The Holy Spirit works with each of us at different speeds and ways. Our background and previous experiences can sometimes cause us to be more blind than others. The Holy Spirit works with us as we are able. I can not and will not sit in judgment of your application of Biblical principles. The Holy Spirit can do that. I will call what I know to be sin. But I will not tell you that what I have determined to be sin ... is sin for you. I have enough problems with my life. I am not going to judge and impose my judgment on you.

I will call them unhealthy in my view. But I refuse to call things like coffee a sin for other people. It is only a sin in my judgment for ME. I will leave you to you.

[Taylor]

I'm just trying to strike a balance here or find it or whatever. I am not upset at anyone. Just asking questions.

[Woody]

Quote:

it says you will be lost for it,

The only thing we are lost for is refusing pardon.

[Taylor]

Taylor .... It is my belief that we do not all have the same intelligence and background. The Holy Spirit works with each of us at different speeds and ways. Our background and previous experiences can sometimes cause us to be more blind than others. The Holy Spirit works with us as we are able. I can not and will not sit in judgment of your application of Biblical principles. The Holy Spirit can do that. I will call what I know to be sin. But I will not tell you that what I have determined to be sin ... is sin for you. I have enough problems with my life. I am not going to judge and impose my judgment on you.

I will call them unhealthy in my view. But I refuse to call things like coffee a sin for other people. It is only a sin in my judgment for ME. I will leave you to you.

I appreciate your love for people, your gentle spirit in not wanting to alianate people. Your ability to see that people are at different places and that someone's eternal salvation is not up to us humans but up to God. I am not asking you just judge. I guess I am just trying to see where is the difference between soemthing that is subjective and something that isn't. How do we present Bible doctrines, or truths that are clearly spelled out without be judgemental but not watering down what the Bible does say? That is my question. Is it ok to call some things "sin" while other things we can't call "sin" without being judgemental?

[Woody]

Let the BIBLE speak for itself and allow the Holy Spirit to convict.

If they come to you and ask for your personal application of Biblical principles that would be different.

[olger]

"But I will not tell you that what I have determined to be sin ... is sin for you. I have enough problems with my life. I am not going to judge and impose my judgment on you."

Dear RW. Is the Bible the magisterium of right & wrong, or are you? I ask this in light of your statement "But I will not tell you that what I have determined to be sin.."

Your attempt to define sin as an auto-developed reality is no doubt praiseworthy, but regretfully you fail to explain how auto-developed truth is truth at all.

I've been reading your posts on here for several months, and I tend to see people as a book and often read the pages to learn what I can of them. You have probably done the same with me. That's ok. While you have been pretty guarded about your identity and location, you have been free with other factors. Here's what I read. Tell me if there is truth in it.

You have suffered some wrongs in your life. I have too. Maybe not the exact same ones, but wrongs nonetheless. You believe that these wrongs have been the product of judgemental individuals. I believe that you know other people who you feel have been treated in like fashion. I am sorry that you have gone through these things and I care about you as a person. I also care about where wounds can lead us if we react to them.

My own words here. It is easy to associate Ellen and/or the church with wrongs that we have experienced. This will lead to imbalance in our lives.

Illustration. A man and his wife came to see me. They were in their early to mid 60's. They weren't getting along after 40-years. I asked them to tell their story. In the process, the man made this statement (with tears). "The church has done nothing to hurt me my whole life." He hadn't been to church for 2.5 years. He had had enough!

I helped him see that the church was made up of people, and people do wound us at times. He had been hurt, there was no denying it. I told him he could carry that hurt around for the rest of his life, or he could release it. It was up to him. I helped him see the consequences for hanging on to it. He decided to release it, as Jesus had released him.

They went home after a week. I forgot about them, and began concentrating on the next couple. I got an email two months later from the wife (on a Sunday). She said "Guess who went to church yesterday?" I had an idea who she meant...

She said "Not only that, he went around and hugged every person in the building." They all went home thinking, "something tremendous has happened in that man's life." All because one man said "I choose to release the debt I'm hanging onto.."

Now. Am I saying that you are bitter? No, I am not saying that. I am saying that each of us will suffer many wrongs in life. We cannot control what others do or say to us. The only thing we can do is to have a proper attitude towards those who have hurt us. That goes for me too.

Regards,

Gerry C. Wagoner

Piqua, Ohio

[Bravus]

Romans 14 seems pretty clear to me.

[David Koot]

Romans 14 seems pretty clear to me.

Romans 14 is not on point as to this issue.

[Tom Wetmore]

Caffiene doesn't do a thing for me...No let down effect. So what gives? Can a person be immune to caffiene?...

There indeed can be a different effect on different people. Individuals with ADHD will likely respond the opposite way to the stimulant effect of caffeine. Actually Ritalin that is commonly prescribed for ADHD is a stimulant. One would suspect that giving an ADHD child caffeine would make them more hyper, but it has been shown that it actually has a calming effect. It would take a significant amount to have the same effect as Ritalin but it does work in a very similar way.

I witnessed this first hand with one of my son's classmates while on an all day school field trip when they were in grade school. His mid-day dose of Ritalin had been missed and he was getting increasingly hyper on the return drive, like a noisy pin ball inside the van. We stopped at one point and he bought himself a large Mt Dew (Big Gulp size) and drank it all. When I discovered what he had gotten, I thought tto my self tha the was going to go into hyper overdrive! I almost took it away from him but by then he was half done with it. Strnagely, you could see him slowing down as the caffeine and sugar kicked in. Within a short time he was sound asleep and slept until we got back to the school.

Tom

[phkrause]

Doesn't the Bible say somewhere that our bodies are temples to the Lord? Not sure exactly how the pasages goes. But anyway I believe somewhere in this thread that James317 address's what egw meant when she said that coffee was a sin. I do believe that its in the contex. I believe that just drinking coffee in itself is not a sin, but if you take it in the context of that statement by Paul in the bible where it says that our bodies are temples than I would say that the intake of caffine, alcohol, or any other substance that is harmful to the body is a sin. Just my 2 cents worth.

pkrause

[Bravus]

Romans 14 is 100% on point on the issue of whether we are to judge others on what they eat and drink.

[David Koot]

Romans 14 is 100% on point on the issue of whether we are to judge others on what they eat and drink.

The issue in Rom. 14 was foods which had been offered to idols, and pagan holidays, none of which had significance in terms of either health or theology. That is distinguished from the issue of ingesting harmful substances. Paul does have something to say about that, as do other Bible writers.

[phkrause]

Good you found it. I probably would have spent a few days looking for that. Thanks

pkrause

[Bravus]

Show me *from the text* where it says in Romans 14 that it is about food offered to idols. On the contrary *from the text* it is about meat vs vegetables. I'm not arguing for meat eating, I'm extending the principle.

And even if it *is* about meat offered to idols, the plain teaching is 'don't judge each other'. The specific context in which that teaching is offered is important but not central. The teaching is about judging fellow believers. Incidentally, it also suggests that it is the more 'permissive' one whose faith is stronger...

[phkrause]

Actually bravus I just found the passage I was thinking about. Its 1 corinthians 6:12-20. I think that this is more to what I was thinking.

pkrause

[aldona]

I have just stuck my head back onto the forum after a few busy days away and I am just shaking my head in amazement that it has grown to 18 pages... :HB :PF :

So many words, so much time and energy, so much arguing...all about coffee? :duno

aldona

[Bravus]

*whisper*some of us find it healthier than watching TV*whisper*

[lazarus]

Its not just Coffee. Its sinful coffee, i.e. caffinated

[Bravus]

But yeah, there are definitely better things we could be doing. I'm off to do some of them.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Romans 14 is not on point as to this issue.

Oh, but it really is! It's not helpful to your perspective so you explain it away to irrelevance.

Even if one accepts that the only thing Paul was addressing is food offered to idols, the bottom line for the Jews was that to eat such food was unclean and to eat that which was unclean was a sin. And that is precisely what is at issue here, EGW says to drink coffee is a sin. If I understand you and John on this, Paul's rationale was that "since false gods don't even exist" food offered to them was a meaningless non-event and therefore of no effect on whether the food was clean or unclean. He just undermined the rationale for it being considered sinful.

In like manner, the underlying rationale for the EGW position on coffee being sinful was because of its effect on health - the whole body is the temple of God idea. Therefore what you eat or drink is a moral/spiritual issue. The point that has been suggested from the very first post, was that the bad-for-your-health sin rationale may not be so clear cut for everyone and for every situation and that even some of the specific ill effects believed to be true in EGW's day, may not in fact be scientifically valid. With the rationale for its being a sin somewhat undermined, this would fall within those disputable matters that Paul strongly admonished should be kept to oneself, just as he concludes in Romans 14.

But the bottom line for me is the same as Bravus has just pointed out, the supposed context you are imposing on Romans 14, simply is not supported by the text and is conjecture. Paul is certainly capable of using the qualifying phrase "food offered to idols" as he does elsewhere. But in Romans 14 he clearly does not. He very directly and plainly says:

Quote:

As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean [sinful] in itself...For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit...Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food...So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.

Bravus is also spot on in saying this passage is about not judging one another. If you will read what EGW says about how one should call sin by its right name, (Not found in the Education recital of the platitude) she prefaces it very directly that this is not a license to judge since that is the prerogative of God alone. And she further qualifies it by a strong urging to let mercy and forgiveness lead in this task of calling sin by its right name.

The crux of the matter is that if one is going to engage in the serious business of calling sin by its right name, one must be very sure what sin is. If that is in dispute, Paul's wisdom is that it is better to keep your views to yourself on the matter, than to stir up contention and risk alienating a fellow believer.

Tom

[David Koot]

It's not helpful to your perspective so you explain it away to irrelevance.

It is truly unfortunate that you resort to ridicule.

Doing so does interfere with the discussion and reflects poorly upon yourself, or whoever may be doing it. After reading your opening sentence, my reaction was simply to stop reading the rest of your post, which I did. I hope you will makie an effort to avoid resorting to ridicule, in the future. As for Rom. 14, I will address that passage a little later this evening.

[David Koot]

*whisper*some of us find it healthier than watching TV*whisper*

TV is indeed an unhealthy influence. I don't watch TV or have one, for that matter. The internet is a good source of needed information, and one may be selective.

Dave