God’s Man, Darwin - Clifford Goldstein

[olger]

Let me see ... First olger says :

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]"Unfortunately, if his recent so-called book "reviews" are any indication, Ford is apparently more interested in winning debates and arguments than in searching for and finding out the truth."

Quite!

Then he says ....

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"People like Ford and Goldstein are not looking for truth." then

"Are you sure about that? How do you know their heart?"

Interesting. How do you manage to speak out of both sides of your mouth. So ... HOW DO you know that Ford is not interested in finding truth if you don't know his heart. I will wait for this explanation.

Dearest Redwood. Nice to hear from you. A cursory review of the intial comment regarding "Ford" will reveal that the original quote was by another on 6-04-07. I highlighted the quote with the word "quite" to show my personal agreement. The President of Zaoski Seminary in Russia questioned Ford in early 1994 and found his answers deeply "wanting." My review of his material yields a similar conclusion. Thanks for asking.

2) You lumped Ford & Goldstein together by saying that "neither of them are looking for truth." I find the statement to be odd, and legitimately asked how you know this. Hope that helps.

Ps. Today I am wearing a shirt that my youngest son gave me. It says "No Whining." . I can send you one if might help.

as always,

olger

[Woody]

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Ps. Today I am wearing a shirt that my youngest son gave me. It says "No Whining." . I can send you one if might help.

I really don't think you need to resort to such condescending remarks. Let's keep things civil.

Thanks Olger

[John317]

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If Ellen White really is a prophet of God, we need to accept all of her statements, and not just a select few.

Have you changed your mind about this statement of yours?

OR This one?

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I have never taken the position that every word Ellen White ever said or wrote is to be taken as coming from God or as inspired

Does this mean that you "accept" everything from Ellen White even though you believe it wasn't from God?

Redwood, I believe both statements, and I believe you will believe them, too, when you have thought about them a little more. They don't conflict if you think about what is being said. It means just as with the Bible, you should read everything she said on a topic and don't consider only a little bit on a subject. For instance, if you want to see what she wrote on sanctification, it would be a good thing to get out the concordance and read quite a few things (if not all) that she said about sanctification. Does that make good sense?

I'd like to ask a very serious quesion: Why, whenever the subject of Ellen White comes up here, do I feel such a strange resistence, predictably from certain people, a resistence I doubt I would feel if I started talking about Neitzsche, Freud, Marx, or Darwin?

I feel the same resistence if I talk about God or the Bible to a close friend of mine who is very anti-religious. He hates it because the Bible calls for him to change his life. He can only talk about God when he uses foul language about Him because it makes Him feel God is degraded to his own level. By the way, this same friend read parts of Desire of Ages when we were about 20 and he told me then that it seemed to him that the author saw the events she was describing. I don't know how he got the book and I have never discussed it with him. (He does not know anything about Ellen White except that she wrote the Desire of Ages.) But now he is one of the most profane people I've ever met, but a truly outstanding photographer and artist. He photographs all over the world. Pray for him please, that God will touch his heart and give him a desire for Him. Here are some of his images: ttp://homepage.mac.com/ronaldrobertgrantham/PhotoAlbum1.html

[olger]

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Ps. Today I am wearing a shirt that my youngest son gave me. It says "No Whining." . I can send you one if might help.

I really don't think you need to resort to such condescending remarks. Let's keep things civil.

Thanks Olger

Dear Redwood. I agree. Sorry if that hurt your feelings. I thought you had a sense of humor and inserted the smiley to connect with it. It missed.

this is olger siging off

[John317]

There is middle ground - and it is the ground the White Estate is on.

EGW made mistakes, some big, some small.

EGW made contributions to our view of God, some big, some small.

Actually I am inclined to view her writings as typical of the INPUTS to the FILTERING process that produced the Bible.

I'm sure if we had all of Peter's letters, we would find a similar range of material, with similar issues, as we find with EGW's material.

/Bevin

What, in your judgment, was her biggest mistake?

I agree with what you say about what would happen if we had all of Peter's letters. Ditto any prophet of God.

Do you agree with Ellen White's statements that Jesus Christ was the One who gave the law at Sinai, the One who created the universe and the world and the One who led the children of Isreal in the wilderness?

Interestingly enough, this is exactly what the Bible teaches. The Bible says it but Ellen White says it even more plainly and in our own language so that there can be no disagreement about what she is saying. For instance, compare 1 Cor. 10: 9, 4 with PP 366, 367. See the KJV, NKJV, NRSV, NAB, TNIV, CEV,and the ESV at 1 Cor. 10: 9 ("We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did, and were destroyed by serpents." NRSV).

With the exception of 9 manuscripts-- only two of which are dated before the 9th century AD-- all of the Greek manuscripts read "Christ" here. Despite that fact, the TEV tells its readers in its footnote that "some manuscripts have Christ" in verse 9. Other Bibles, such as the ESV, has a more accurate footnote here, "Some manuscripts have 'Lord'.

This is an example of where the Bible teaches something that may not be as clear as it could be but which Ellen White states it so clearly that there can be no mistake what the truth is provided someone wants to understand it. This is the case with regard to a number of critical issues and questions, such as the Trinity doctrine.

It shows the proper use of a modern prophet of God, just as our official doctrine states it: "Ellen White, the Lord's messenger"-- "Her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: bevin

Actually I am inclined to view her writings as typical of the INPUTS to the FILTERING process that produced the Bible.

I'm sure if we had all of Peter's letters, we would find a similar range of material, with similar issues, as we find with EGW's material.

/Bevin

Interesting thought. We do know that Paul, for example, wrote more than appears in the Bible. Doubtless, the same could be said for other New Testament figures. Every word they wrote was not included in the Bible.

Some years back I got a book that contains a Dead Sea Psalms scroll that includes many Psalms that do not appear in our modern Bible. They are unquestionably true, inspired Psalms, some of which may have been written by David. They are Psalms that the Jewish community used before the time of Christ, and probably during Christ's time, in their religious rites and worship services. Not everything God inspired, as you say, could possibly be made part of our Bible without making it too large to carry. Like the Apostle John said, God had to limit the amount of things included in the scriptures.

[John317]

"Unfortunately, if his recent so-called book "reviews" are any indication, Ford is apparently more interested in winning debates and arguments than in searching for and finding out the truth."

Quite!

Ford makes no bones about the fact that he loves to win arguments and debates. He's talked at length about this in some of his classes and meetings.

This is OK as long as it does not create or encourage a debating spirit or mind-set which causes the person to be primarily interested in winning rather than in sincerely seeking for truth in a humble spirit. Ellen White had virtually nothing positive to say about debates because of that very thing: they generally don't lead to an interest in truth so much as in winning. (Shock: people will even be dishonest about the word of God in order to win an argument!!!!!! In case we haven't noticed.)

I made the original remark about Ford because in some of his more recent book "reviews," he doesn't deal seriously with the evidence and arguments presented by the authors but simply dismisses the books out of hand with a comment that the writer is "not a scholar" or in another case with the inaccurate charge that the writer is teaching that God needs the Investigative Judgment in order to learn something.

[David Koot]

Not everything God inspired, as you say, could possibly be made part of our Bible without making it too large to carry. Like the Apostle John said, God had to limit the amount of things included in the scriptures.

Hmmmm . . . that is different than I have understood over the years. I have understood that some of the Bible writers may have written a lot of stuff, but only that which was inspired ended up in the Bible. Things they wrote which were not included in the Bible may well have been good enough. However, inspired writings, as I have understood it, are timeless and not limited to local application. Much of what those guys wrote may have been of only local application, and not for all times or all places.

Beyond that, very honestly, I do know that all of them were sinners, all of them fell short of the mark in some ways, all of them made mistakes. It would not seem reasonable to assume that every word they spoke was inspired by God, correct? Logically, then, it would not seem reasonable that every word they wrote had to be inspired by God. I have not heard of such a notion, and it does not sound reasonable to me.

Dave

[Woody]

Being condescending and then adding a smile tells me just a little about the person.

[Woody]

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Dear Redwood. I agree. Sorry if that hurt your feelings. I thought you had a sense of humor and inserted the smiley to connect with it. It missed.

Being condescending and then adding a smile tells me just a little about the person.

And this is not humor ....

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I thought you had a sense of humor

Please stop the attacks Olger. I do have a sense of humor but not about your constant personal attacks.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

Not everything God inspired, as you say, could possibly be made part of our Bible without making it too large to carry. Like the Apostle John said, God had to limit the amount of things included in the scriptures.

Hmmmm . . . that is different than I have understood over the years. I have understood that some of the Bible writers may have written a lot of stuff, but only that which was inspired ended up in the Bible. Things they wrote which were not included in the Bible may well have been good enough. However, inspired writings, as I have understood it, are timeless and not limited to local application. Much of what those guys wrote may have been of only local application, and not for all times or all places.

Beyond that, very honestly, I do know that all of them were sinners, all of them fell short of the mark in some ways, all of them made mistakes. It would not seem reasonable to assume that every word they spoke was inspired by God, correct? Logically, then, it would not seem reasonable that every word they wrote had to be inspired by God. I have not heard of such a notion, and it does not sound reasonable to me.

Dave

Dave .... I've been fighting this issue with John317 for a long time. It is good to have you on board. Can we join forces? The last time we did this we counquered the mystery of Steve Murphy. Perhaps we can tackle the myth of every word a prophet speaks as being inspired.

[bevin]

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Logically, then, it would not seem reasonable that every word they wrote had to be inspired by God.

It is people that are inspired, not words.

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/herm-pri.html#verbal

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Such sentiments represent Ellen White's consistent witness across time. "The Bible," she wrote in 1886, "is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. . . . The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. . . .

"It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God" (ibid., p. 21).

Since John317 believes EGW's words are authoritative, and since she is directly addressing the issue here, this should settle the matter.

/Bevin

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Not everything God inspired, as you say, could possibly be made part of our Bible without making it too large to carry. Like the Apostle John said, God had to limit the amount of things included in the scriptures.

Hmmmm . . . that is different than I have understood over the years. I have understood that some of the Bible writers may have written a lot of stuff, but only that which was inspired ended up in the Bible. Things they wrote which were not included in the Bible may well have been good enough. However, inspired writings, as I have understood it, are timeless and not limited to local application. Much of what those guys wrote may have been of only local application, and not for all times or all places.

Beyond that, very honestly, I do know that all of them were sinners, all of them fell short of the mark in some ways, all of them made mistakes.

Yes, without question. We have Moses and David as examples that give proof of this, to say nothing of Elijah and Solomon and Jonah and...

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It would not seem reasonable to assume that every word they spoke was inspired by God, correct?

For sure. Both Nathan and Ellen White gave personal advice that was actually very similar and later they had to retract that personal advice that was based just on their opinion. True prophets have personal opinions like anyone else, and these opinions are not necessarily any better than anyone else's. One thing has caused some people to stumble is the fact that prophets have not always understood their own visions. Daniel didn't, and sometimes neither did Ellen White. God sometimes had to give her the same vision several times, which could occur in a matter of minutes or even seconds. While speaking, she might not remember a vision until God gave it to her again as in a flash and then after the reminder she would remember everything clearly. She sometimes did not know if the event she saw in vision was in the past or in the future.

By the way, could you imagine what it was like to be Ellen's husband James and to have a theological disagreement with her, which sometimes happened? Imagine your wife telling you that you are wrong because God told her you're wrong about something. Ellen had to use a lot of tact, especially when it came to a point of disagreement they had, which was over the Trinity. I took a course in Ellen White from Dr. Robert Olson, who later went on to become director of the White Estate. I will have to verify this but I beleive I remember his telling the class that when people would ask Mrs. White about her husband's wrong ideas about the Trinity, Mrs. White said that there were more important doctrines. Of course at that time, she was right. They were dealing with the Sabbath and the Christ's soon return. It wasn't time yet for them to get the Trinity doctrine straight. That time would come in the late 1880s with E.J. Waggoner's message about Christ's righteousness and Mrs. White's Desire of Ages in 1898.

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Logically, then, it would not seem reasonable that every word they wrote had to be inspired by God. I have not heard of such a notion, and it does not sound reasonable to me.

Dave

As you say, prophets wrote for specific situations and to specific people, and these things may not have had a general application to the church.

We know that Paul wrote at least one, probably two, additional letters to the Corinthians that were lost. I'm sure those letters were inspired because they dealt with the same issues and questions that are dealt with in the Corinthian letters that we do have. God did not only inspire them for us but I am sure He inspired Paul in order for him to give the Corinthian believers the right teaching and advice.

I believe Ellen White was inspired to write testimonies and advice to particular individuals in her day, yet for various reasons many of these letters never were published during Mrs. White's lifetime. She was apparently inspired to write them because she recieved visions about the people to whom she was writing. Sometimes Mrs. White was awakened by an angel in the middle of the night and told to write. As a young teen, I lived a few miles from where Mrs. White lived during the last 10 years of her life. I heard Mrs. White's granddaughter's husband say that visitors of Mrs. White's told of sometimes seeing a strange light under Mrs. White door very early in the morning, and Mrs. White would later talk about the angel who woke her up so she could begin writing. That was Grace Jacque's husband who told me this. He loved the study of angels and worked as one of the guides at Mrs. White's Elmshaven home near Pacific Union College. Grace was a neighbor of ours in Loma Linda when I was a kid and a friend of my fathers. She worked as a teacher at the school where my dad was principal. Another grand-daughter of Mrs. White's was our neighbor in San Diego. She married a man named Robinson and wrote a popular book among SDAs at that time entitled William and His Twenty-Two. Maybe you've heard of it.

[John317]

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Logically, then, it would not seem reasonable that every word they wrote had to be inspired by God.

It is people that are inspired, not words.

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/herm-pri.html#verbal

Quote:

Such sentiments represent Ellen White's consistent witness across time. "The Bible," she wrote in 1886, "is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. . . . The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. . . .

"It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God" (ibid., p. 21).

Since John317 believes EGW's words are authoritative, and since she is directly addressing the issue here, this should settle the matter.

/Bevin

Words are often also inspired, Bevin. That is, unless the Bible is a lie or unless Ellen White is lying. Paul argued from the viewpoint that a particular word was inspired by God to be just the form that it was in Scripture, and Jesus did the same. Jesus also significantly talked about how man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. David said it was the Spirit of the Lord that spoke by him and that God's word was upon His tongue (2 Sam. 23: 2). So, really, whose words are they? If we go by Christ and David, they are not man's words but God's. Yes, men use the pen and they use human speech, but ultimately we are talking about the Word of God. NOT THE WORD OF MAN. Human words have no saving value and, apart from special revelation and the Holy Spirit, cannot tell us the truth about God.

Perhaps, though, you and I are misunderstanding each other's use of language. I mean that unless the words are in quotation marks, the words are those chosen by Ellen White but under the guidance or influence of the Holy Spirit. Ellen White herself said that she was as much dependent on the Holy Spirit when writing the visions as she was in receiving the visions, yet the words were her own words. That can only mean that the Holy Spirit guides or influences the prophet in the choice of words. The words of a prophet are not dictated as some believe. And yet, as said in our beloved church's official doctrines, "Ellen White, the Lord's messenger's, writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction", praise God!

Again, my friend, I would like to make a polite request that you allow me to say what I believe and not try to characterize what I think, because you tend to get the translation a little off each time you do it. Maybe it's because I'm such a poor writer that's causing me to be misunderstood. Anyway it's nice to think so.

[olger]

"Please stop the attacks Olger. I do have a sense of humor but not about your constant personal attacks."

Now that is humorous. You've been attached to my leg for about two months now.

Have a better day and be strong,

og

[Woody]

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Again, my friend, I would like to request that you allow me to say what I believe and not try to characterize what I think because you tend to get the translation a little off or something. In any case, you manage somehow or someway to get it wrong.

I've noticed that this is what many do to the Bible and Ellen White. They try to characterize or intepret what THEY think is said by the words they read. I guess that is ALL we can do. We read words and interpret what the words mean.

I would not be too harsh on Bevin. That is what we ALL do and we HAVE to do. We each bring our own interpretation of what the words mean from our own understandings and life experiences. Personally I find some authors as trying to have their words mean both one thing and another. So ... it is hard. Many do not want to admit that their beliefs could be in error so they twist even their own words ... not to mention Ellen White and the Bible.

[Woody]

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Have a better day and be strong,

Perhaps you are ignorant of how your constant condescending remarks like this reflect on you. And yes ... I've decided to challenge each of your personal attacks. They will not go unnoticed. I hope this will help you.

It is my hope that there will be day when JUST the ISSUES can be addressed rather than personal attacks.

[Beryl]

Thanks, John, that is a good reply. Ellen White was a human being, just like you and me. Yes, she was a wife, a mother, the mistress of the household. She had a good marriage -- but she and James did not always agree! She had children -- but they were not perfect! She had a sense of humour, enjoyed life, and yet carried many burdens because of happenings in the church.

The same can be said of the apostles. Paul and Barnabas split up because Paul wouldn't give Mark a second chance! Barnabas took Mark and much later Paul also saw Mark as a fellow labourer for Christ. Paul "withstood Peter to his face" over Peter's attitude to the Gentiles.

They were all human! And God can use all kinds of humans, and He can inspire them as they write, preach, and otherwise pass on the thoughts that come from God to His people.

For some, like Samuel, Nathan, Ellen White, they have been called to the specific task of being His prophet. Some, like Daniel, He calls to the prophetic ministry part-time while they "hold down a job" for the remainder of their time.

When I read some of the articles and books written by God's men and women of today, I can put the book down and honestly say, "That is inspired". God still has His part-time prophets and prophetesses today.

God bless,

Beryl

[olger]

Hi redwood. Well I keep trying to ignore you, but it's a bit like a chihauahau yapping at me .

I have a suggestion. If you are that interested in conversing with me I will give you my 800-number and you can talk all you wish. I'll listen, and the foot the bill.

Thanks,

olger

[Woody]

Better yet Olger. Just stick to the issues and all will be well.

[John317]

Quote:

Again, my friend, I would like to request that you allow me to say what I believe and not try to characterize what I think because you tend to get the translation a little off or something. In any case, you manage somehow or someway to get it wrong.

I've noticed that this is what many do to the Bible and Ellen White. They try to characterize or intepret what THEY think is said by the words they read. I guess that is ALL we can do. We read words and interpret what the words mean.

I would not be too harsh on Bevin. That is what we ALL do and we HAVE to do. We each bring our own interpretation of what the words mean from our own understandings and life experiences. Personally I find some authors as trying to have their words mean both one thing and another. So ... it is hard. Many do not want to admit that their beliefs could be in error so they twist even their own words ... not to mention Ellen White and the Bible.

I have been wrong and made many mistakes in my lifetime-- too many for me to try to remember now-- so it would not be hard for me to change something I have written if you tell me what I have done that appears to you to be misusing Ellen White or the Bible. Please tell me how I have done this, show me exactly what it is, and I will do what I can to make it right. Please.

[olger]

It is risky..you might find out that you like me. .

Second suggestion is...if you wish to dialogue, feel free to open up a PM and we can communicate decently in private. I am willing if you are.

I have no desire to remonstrate with you.

Thanks and God bless,

og

[John317]

Hi redwood. Well I keep trying to ignore you, but it's a bit like a chihauahau yapping at me .

I have a suggestion. If you are that interested in conversing with me I will give you my 800-number and you can talk all you wish. I'll listen, and the foot the bill.

Thanks,

olger

I know it's none of my business but I think that is a great idea, Olger. You know, I really believe you two would find out each other is really a nice, perhaps even, a wonderful person. Anyone who would make a proposal like Olger has here has got to be a wonderful, forgiving person in my book.

[Woody]

Like I said above John317 ... that is ALL we can do. We interpret what we think the words mean. It is called interpretation. The way you interpret MY words or Ellen White's words ... or the words of the Bible ... are not the way I would interpret them. Hey ... that's OK. That is all we can do.

Each person applies what Ellen White or the Bible says to their understanding or interpretation of scripture. It is done through their life experiences and impressions and guidance from the Holy Spirit. Your guidance from the Holy Spirit is different from mine. And I hope you will not be like others and say that I am not lead by the Spirit because I have a different interpretation of scripture than you.

We have to depend upon the Bible and not our own personal desires of interpretation. We must ask the Holy Spirit to guide us. But each of us are at a different stage. Many have to go through a legalism stage in their walk. And that is fine. God still loves them but he wants to show them a better way.

However ... even in that legalism stage ... He still can save them. So .. we need to love all no matter what stage they may be in.

[John317]

Thanks, John, that is a good reply. Ellen White was a human being, just like you and me. Yes, she was a wife, a mother, the mistress of the household. She had a good marriage -- but she and James did not always agree! She had children -- but they were not perfect! She had a sense of humour, enjoyed life, and yet carried many burdens because of happenings in the church.

The same can be said of the apostles. Paul and Barnabas split up because Paul wouldn't give Mark a second chance! Barnabas took Mark and much later Paul also saw Mark as a fellow labourer for Christ. Paul "withstood Peter to his face" over Peter's attitude to the Gentiles.

They were all human! And God can use all kinds of humans, and He can inspire them as they write, preach, and otherwise pass on the thoughts that come from God to His people.

For some, like Samuel, Nathan, Ellen White, they have been called to the specific task of being His prophet. Some, like Daniel, He calls to the prophetic ministry part-time while they "hold down a job" for the remainder of their time.

When I read some of the articles and books written by God's men and women of today, I can put the book down and honestly say, "That is inspired". God still has His part-time prophets and prophetesses today.

God bless,

Beryl

Fantastic, Beryl. Good enough to read and reread, and remember.

Adding something-- think, too, of how sick Ellen White was, and that frequently. Sometimes near death. When she was writing the Desire of Ages in Australia, she was often unable to get out of bed. I can't wait to tell her how much I loved her and her writings and how much they helped me. I'm going to tell her the truth that I started out not liking her when I was a "free spirit" of a kid but that I grew to see her as one of my favorite people of all time. You know what she will say? If I know her, I bet she will say that all the glory goes to her Savior, and I know she will really mean it.