God’s Man, Darwin - Clifford Goldstein

[olger]

"I can't wait to tell her how much I loved her and her writings and how much they helped me. I'm going to tell her the truth that I started out not liking her when I was a "free spirit" of a kid but that I grew to see her as one of my favorite people of all time. You know what she will say? She will say that all the glory goes to her Savior, and I know she will really mean it."

Amen,

og

[Woody]

It is risky..you might find out that you like me. .

Second suggestion is...if you wish to dialogue, feel free to open up a PM and we can communicate decently in private. I am willing if you are.

I have no desire to remonstrate with you.

Thanks and God bless,

og

Olger ... thanks for the offer. But I have no desire to be treated as you treat others. If you can demonstrate a polite and courteous way of communicating ... then I would be happy to get to know you. That is why I continue to say ... just stick to the issues. I have a good time with discussing differences of opinion with others who are not so condescending in their approach when there are differences of opinions.

Perhaps at a later date we could do as you have suggested.

And Olger ... I do like you ... I just don't like your methods and the way you treat others who differ with your opinion.

[John317]

Like I said above John317 ... that is ALL we can do. We interpret what we think the words mean. It is called interpretation. The way you interpret MY words or Ellen White's words ... or the words of the Bible ... are not the way I would interpret them. Hey ... that's OK. That is all we can do.

Each person applies what Ellen White or the Bible says to their understanding or interpretation of scripture. It is done through their life experiences and impressions and guidance from the Holy Spirit. Your guidance from the Holy Spirit is different from mine. And I hope you will not be like others and say that I am not lead by the Spirit because I have a different interpretation of scripture than you.

We have to depend upon the Bible and not our own personal desires of interpretation. We must ask the Holy Spirit to guide us. But each of us are at a different stage. Many have to go through a legalism stage in their walk. And that is fine. God still loves them but he wants to show them a better way.

However ... even in that legalism stage ... He still can save them. So .. we need to love all no matter what stage they may be in.

Well any time I misinterpret something in either the Bible or in Ellen White's writings, I would sincerely want it to be pointed out. But not as a general statement or as an opinion or a conclusion. It needs to be explained and shown, of course. Otherwise I have only your conclusion to go by, and how can I know that your conclusion is right if you don't show me the evidence upon which you are basing your conclusion. Does that make any sense at all? Anyway, show me if I do that. I don't like it any more than you do-- on this at least we are in complete harmony-- and I assure you I do try very hard not to.

[Woody]

Quote:

Well any time I misinterpret something in either the Bible or in Ellen White's writings, I would sincerely want it to be pointed out. But not as a general statement or as an opinion or a conclusion. It needs needs to be explained and shown, of course. Otherwise I have only your conclusion to go by, and how can I know that your conclusion is right if you don't show me the evidence upon which you are basing your conclusion. Does that make any sense? Anyway, show me if I do that. I try very hard not to.

John317. You have a good heart. But I think you misunderstand me.

For you ... your interpretation is right on. I would never want to change it and could not. Your interpretation is just fine for you. That is the point. You have asked the Holy Spirit to lead you have you not. Then what you believe is fine until the Holy Spirit convicts you otherwise.

The point here is that I see things differently than you. I am at a different stage in my walk than you. I do not imply that it is better ... just different.

I do not claim to have the final interpretation of scripture or Ellen White. ALL that I have is my personal interpretation or opinion. You state you don't want that.(" But not as a general statement or as an opinion or a conclusion.") So ... why would you accept any interpretation that I have. I happen to believe with all my heart that MY interpretation is of God. I have full belief. But yet ... God continues to show me new truth each and every day. I continue to grow. I have not arrived. This is why I love to hear and read YOUR Opinion. And I do consider it an opinion just like mine.

Yes ... I can show you the evidence that I base my OPINION on. But you will most likely view the evidence differently and form a different opinion. And that is fine.

[bevin]

Quote:

When I read some of the articles and books written by God's men and women of today, I can put the book down and honestly say, "That is inspired". God still has His part-time prophets and prophetesses today.

God bless,

Beryl

Beryl, does this suggest that you think a piece of writing can be inspired and not authoritative?

/Bevin

[Woody]

You raise a good question Bevin.

I think God can inspire someone to write down a thought. But in our human condition ... it may not actually get written down as it should have been. Something may have gotten crossed in the translation between earthly thoughts and heavenly thoughts.

So ... the words actually written may not be authoritative because even though they were "inspired" they will are not infallible and do contain error.

The other issue here is our own faulty interpretation of what we read. Each person comes from a different background and era. Words can mean different things to different individuals due to our era and life experiences.

[John317]

Quote:

Well any time I misinterpret something in either the Bible or in Ellen White's writings, I would sincerely want it to be pointed out. But not as a general statement or as an opinion or a conclusion. It needs needs to be explained and shown, of course. Otherwise I have only your conclusion to go by, and how can I know that your conclusion is right if you don't show me the evidence upon which you are basing your conclusion. Does that make any sense? Anyway, show me if I do that. I try very hard not to.

John317. You have a good heart. But I think you misunderstand me.

For you ... your interpretation is right on. I would never want to change it and could not. Your interpretation is just fine for you. That is the point. You have asked the Holy Spirit to lead you have you not. Then what you believe is fine until the Holy Spirit convicts you otherwise.

The point here is that I see things differently than you. I am at a different stage in my walk than you. I do not imply that it is better ... just different.

I do not claim to have the final interpretation of scripture or Ellen White. ALL that I have is my personal interpretation or opinion. You state you don't want that.(" But not as a general statement or as an opinion or a conclusion.") So ... why would you accept any interpretation that I have. I happen to believe with all my heart that MY interpretation is of God. I have full belief. But yet ... God continues to show me new truth each and every day. I continue to grow. I have not arrived. This is why I love to hear and read YOUR Opinion. And I do consider it an opinion just like mine.

Yes ... I can show you the evidence that I base my OPINION on. But you will most likely view the evidence differently and form a different opinion. And that is fine.

OK. That is exactly what I want: the evidence on which you base your opinion that I am misinterpreting either the Bible or Ellen White. It will not surprise me to see that I have done that because that's the sort of thing that, try as we might to avoid it, all humans do do at times.

But are you sure you mean what you say here? The part, I mean, about it's all just people's opinions? Is that pretty much all that our beliefs and doctrines amount to? A hill of opinion? How is that much improvement over a hill of beans? Nothing solid there is there? And when you gave Bible studies to people, were you giving them mere opinions? Or was the truth that you showed them from the Bible clear and substantial and solid, the "straight," very word of God? Can this be done?

Quote:

For you ... your interpretation is right on. I would never want to change it and could not. Your interpretation is just fine for you. That is the point. You have asked the Holy Spirit to lead you have you not. Then what you believe is fine until the Holy Spirit convicts you otherwise.

All right, but I am not satisfied holding a view or interpretation that is wrong. And there are wrong interpretations or understandings of Scipture. If a person asks the Holy Spirit to lead him, it may be He is having me get counsel from you that I need to make some changes. So tell me your opinion about how I am making mistakes in my interpretations of either the Bible or Mrs. White's writings.

When I said I wasn't interested in general opinion merely, I meant that I am not satisfied to hear simply, "You're wrong." I want to hear reasons and evidence. Luther called it persuasion. "Persuade me from the word of God," Luther said, "because my conscience is bound by the Word, and I cannot and will not recant unless you show me from the word of God that I am in error." They wanted Luther to change because of their opinion that he was in error. But naturally Luther would not. Another word for such persuasion is rhetoric. A very good word, this, by the way, that is, in its classical context. Rhetoric is the study of the art of argument or logic and use of evidence in either writing or speaking to persuade someone to change his point of view. That is what I am asking you to do.

I need a little shut-eye, then will be back to see what you have written.

[olger]

Redwood said:

Quote:

Olger ... thanks for the offer. But I have no desire to be treated as you treat others. If you can demonstrate a polite and courteous way of communicating ... then I would be happy to get to know you. That is why I continue to say ... just stick to the issues. I have a good time with discussing differences of opinion with others who are not so condescending in their approach when there are differences of opinions.

Dear Redwood. I'm sitting here trying to think of a method of communication that you will be willing to submit to. You have rejected my two best offers to have a private & honest conversation. Would you be willing, in the spirit of Matthew 18 to reconsider those offers? The burden of Jesus in that chapter is reconciliation. There's nothing to be afraid of.

Thanks.

Warm regards,

og

[Woody]

John317. Thanks for the good questions. Yes. All I have is opinion. I think you got that straight. I base it on my interpretation of scripture. But I am a fallible human being. I am not about to state that I have arrived with perfect understanding on ANY issue. I am not perfect. I believe the Bible is clear. But I also believe that I am faulty. It IS possible even though I have asked the Holy Spirit to guide me ... that I may not fully understand ALL scripture.

If I believed as you .... I would not feel I had ANY need to further study over anything that I had studied before. Once you read the straight , solid, substantial and "very word of God". Do you ever need to go back and research it further? I do. And I always get a more fuller and complete understanding. In fact sometimes I actually do a 360 and changed course in my understanding.

I remain open to the word. God's Word is the final and clear word of God. Our interpretation is not. I will not sit here and claim that MY interpretation or YOUR interpretation is the final say. I still have room to learn.

But ... in the end ... our knowledge is not worth a hill of beans. What Jesus did on the cross 2,000 years ago ... NOW THAT is worth all the world to me. My knowledge will have to change and be molded even after Jesus comes. So ... it ain't worth much in the scheme of things.

[John317]

John317. Thanks for the good questions. Yes. All I have is opinion. I think you got that straight. I base it on my interpretation of scripture. But I am a fallible human being. I am not about to state that I have arrived with perfect understanding on ANY issue. I am not perfect. I believe the Bible is clear. But I also believe that I am faulty. It IS possible even though I have asked the Holy Spirit to guide me ... that I may not fully understand ALL scripture.

If I believed as you .... I would not feel I had ANY need to further study over anything that I had studied before. Once you read the straight , solid, substantial and "very word of God". Do you ever need to go back and research it further? I do. And I always get a more fuller and complete understanding. In fact sometimes I actually do a 360 and changed course in my understanding.

I remain open to the word. God's Word is the final and clear word of God. Our interpretation is not. I will not sit here and claim that MY interpretation or YOUR interpretation is the final say. I still have room to learn.

But ... in the end ... our knowledge is not worth a hill of beans. What Jesus did on the cross 2,000 years ago ... NOW THAT is worth all the world to me. My knowledge will have to change and be molded even after Jesus comes. So ... it ain't worth much in the scheme of things.

Still up for now but half falling asleep.

That's good to be open. So am I. That's great to be able to change if you see you are wrong. So can I and have.

But wrong about feeling I have no more to learn. Are you kidding? I have only just begun to learn. I know about half a percent of one percent of the knowledge of the Bible that is available for humans to learn. But we have to know what we know and what we don't know. It doesn't sound like you know what you know. Do you know what I mean? For instance, are you sure you know that the Bible is God's Word to your soul? Do you know the basic principles of how to interpret the Bible-- principles called hermeneutics? I am sure you know them because you've told me you studied theology and your wife is a pastor. So, these are some of the basics that we can know and be sure of, without feeling that we know EVERYTHING, which of course none of us do. Some know a little bit more than others, but when we consider the potential knowledge that is out there, no one is much more knowledgable than anyone else. It's like the difference between one person jumping a foot high and another jumping four feet high in order to reach the moon. No one is very far towards the goal or has any reason to feel superior to anyone else.

Anyhow, you have my permission at any time to show me if I am misinterpretating a text or quote. Just be sure to say more than "I think you're wrong" if you expect me to pay attention. Otherwise I will think you may simply not like what I said.

And now, really, to bed...

[Woody]

John317. I very much like what you said in this post. But I especially liked the following ....

Quote:

Some know a little bit more than others, but when we consider the potential knowledge that is out there, no one is much more knowledgable than anyone else.

However .... I do have some problem with you going back to this type of statement ...

Quote:

Anyhow, you have my permission at any time to show me if I am misinterpretating a text or quote. Just be sure to say more than "I think you're wrong" if you expect me to pay attention. Otherwise I will think you may simply not like what I said.

John317 I really don't feel you are wrong. You are right for yourself. I may disagree with your view but that is fine. Only the Holy Spirit needs to change you. I don't.

[John317]

...John317, I really don't feel you are wrong. You are right for yourself. I may disagree with your view but that is fine. Only the Holy Spirit needs to change you. I don't.

OK, I understand your viewpoint. That's fine. I'm not trying to make you do something you'd rather not or feel that you oughtn't.

I think it's important, though, that if you are right about something and I am wrong, you ought to feel free to tell me about it. Did you realize that this is one of the major ways in which the Holy Spirit changes people-- through other Christians?

I realize this kind of thing needs to be done right, but I have no problem if people talk to me about these kinds of things. I am used to it because that is really the fundamental part of my work. It's a constant. I take care of 12 boys along with other staff and all of us are constantly "confronting" if you know what I mean. Of course we try to do it politely but sometimes when nothing else works we have to show we are very very serious. And you may be sure the boys criticize us, too. It's no big thing. It's the way we get to know each other. Often people come to be closest to those with whom they had at first the most difficult struggles.

One other thing I ought to add here while we're on the subject is that I believe in absolutes because Jesus does. I don't think Truth, that is scriptural or theological truth, is relative or unimportant. There are not two, contradictory truths. There is one Truth. And there is usually only one right way to understand a particular Bible verse or passage. God is not a God of confusion, either doctrinal or otherwise.

I can agree with you up to a point about people being "right for themselves." But there can also be a problem there with that kind of thinking. I know because that is how I believed for many years, and it got me nowhere but working for the devil. The heart is extremely deceptive and evil. I am not being overly dramatic or exaggerating. You see, Redwood, if we Christians are not progressing forward toward Christ, we will automatically be retrograding in the other direction, away from the Master. That is why the Bible urges us to "grow." We are like trees. What happens when a tree stops growing? It dies. So do we when we cease growing in Christ. There is no standing still. Being content to stand still would be the same as feeling you've arrived or feeling that Christ is going to pick you up and carry you like a baby when you got two good legs of your own. It won't happen. Before your Lord would do you that disservice, He'd let you fall and crawl. Hope I'm not confusing you here.

Anyhow, do not fear to let the Holy Spirit use you to make some corrections in people's lives. Like I say, that's also how the Holy Spirit changes us; he uses people to do it. It's OK. That's what preaching and witnessing and giving Bible studies are all about. We're really all part of one big, glorious conversation led by the Spirit. Some can't hear the voices. Some don't talk. Some walk out. But hopefully in time everyone will take a turn participating and will come back to where it's happening.

[Woody]

Quote:

I think it's important, though, that if you are right about something and I am wrong, you ought to feel free to tell me about it.

I am not sure who you are or "I" am to say that one of us is "right" or "wrong". All we can do is study the scriptures and come to an opinion for ourselves. I would not want to tell you that you are wrong. The same scripture that I would quote ... you would use to prove the opposite opinion.

The best that I can hope for is that I can see how you have arrived at a conclusion and that you can do the same for me. I hope there is mutual respect but not agreement necessarily. What is right for you is not necessarily right for me even when we look at the same scriptures.

If I had had to walk a mile in your moccasins .... I would probably have come to the same conclusions as you have. So ... I would not want to tell you that you are wrong. I will tell you that I strongly disagree ... but that is just a personal observation.

[David Koot]

Dave .... I've been fighting this issue with John317 for a long time. It is good to have you on board.

[Woody]

Yeah ... That was fun.

[Woody]

And yes ... I agree that much of our disagreements are semantics. But we do love to hold onto our demontics OH ... I mean semantics.

I've observed that when one side feels they don't have a good argument that they resort to semantics in order to save face.

This whole issue of faith vs works and sanctification is generally one of semantics or emphasis. Both are needed and will happen in the Christian. And we both agree with that. It boils down to which one have you seen abused. That will shape your focus.

[John317]

Quote:

I think it's important, though, that if you are right about something and I am wrong, you ought to feel free to tell me about it.

I am not sure who you are or "I" am to say that one of us is "right" or "wrong". All we can do is study the scriptures and come to an opinion for ourselves. I would not want to tell you that you are wrong. The same scripture that I would quote ... you would use to prove the opposite opinion.

The best that I can hope for is that I can see how you have arrived at a conclusion and that you can do the same for me. I hope there is mutual respect but not agreement necessarily. What is right for you is not necessarily right for me even when we look at the same scriptures.

If I had had to walk a mile in your moccasins .... I would probably have come to the same conclusions as you have. So ... I would not want to tell you that you are wrong. I will tell you that I strongly disagree ... but that is just a personal observation.

Well OK, but our dialogue here started because I understood you to be saying that you thought I was misinterpreting Bible texts and Ellen White quotes.

Am I understanding you properly to mean you never tell anyone in what way they are wrong? I just thought you believed I was manipulating or misusing texts, etc. If I am doing that and you see me doing it, I really think you have an obligation to point it out to me and tell me what I am doing wrong. I hope you wouldn't let me be lost for lack of warning. I'm serious. So, let me know any time you're ready to help me.

"If thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul." Ezekiel 3: 21

"Let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works." Heb. 10: 24

"They that are unlearned and unstable twist... the scriptures unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3: 16

"My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and is brought back by another, you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner's soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." James 5: 19, 20.

"Put away from you all bitterness and wrath and anger and wrangling and slander, together with all malice, and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ has forgiven you. Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children, and live in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Eph. 4: 31- 5:2.

[olger]

Still waiting for your answer to my appeal, RW (crickets chirping in the background..).

I like what you stated above about the need to hear each other. Like the rest of us, you came to this forum seeking fellowship and interaction with fellow believers. That is a good thing.

I feel certain that you will agree that a fundamental part of any fellowship/relationship is the willingness to communicate, especially with one with whom we have disagreed.

Failure to honor God in this manner reduces our claim to be Christians to so much lip service (Matthew 18:15-17). Let's stand up and be men. What do you say to my request?

Thanks,

og

Ps. The request is that RW & I would communicate via PM or our toll-free telephone in order to better understand one another.

[Woody]

Quote:

Am I understanding you properly to mean you never tell anyone in what way they are wrong? I just thought you believed I was manipulating or misusing texts, etc. If I am doing that and you see me doing it, I really think you have an obligation to point it out to me and tell me what I am doing wrong. I hope you wouldn't let me be lost for lack of warning. I'm serious. So, let me know any time you're ready to help me.

I don't know ... I probably have told some one they are wrong, misusing a text. But I do believe that it is just my opinion and I would not want you to change unless the Holy Spirit was working on you. And I would not condemn any belief of yours in the respect that I would never claim that I have the whole or complete or only truth.

And for certain John317 ... I do not believe that you would be lost because of your belief ... no matter how much I disagree with you.

If I can be frank and honest without hurting your feelings.???

John317 .... I feel you are an honest sincere Christian and therefore I have NO doubt that you will be saved. I have complete confidence in this. At the same time ... may I honestly say that I personally believe and have observed that you are or have legalistic teachings as your belief. That is my observation. I don't condemn you for that. I do condemn the beliefs that lean in that direction though. This is why I sound so passionate. I am passionate about opposing legalistic teachings. I find that many are so discouraged by them that they lose their way. While I do not believe that is your case at this time ... I do have the concern.

I know and understand that you do not see your beliefs as legalistic. You stand behind your interpretations of scripture and would not have it any other way. That is good. I have no doubt about your salvation. I am confident of it in fact. But I am worried about those who hear or read what you have to say.

It is like I just wrote in another post responding to David Koot. John317 ... I believe most of our differences are semantics and emphasis. We arrive at these differences in emphasis by our life experiences and what we have observed to be abused. In the issue of faith vs works and sanctification ... you have observed that many do not take seriously enough the need for good works and thus have formed your interpretations around this problem. Personally ... I have observed the danger and abuse of those who focus on works and this has in a small way shaped my focus on the issue.

We can both "prove" our sides with scripture. NO Doubt. I happen to think that your interpretation is slanted and wrong from my perspective. But giving you scripture will not help you. It will not get past your filters. I have tried. But in the end ... I do not consider it very important. God knows you heart and mine.

In the end .... The opportunity we have on CA is to voice and to demonstrate our "opinions". But no matter how much scripture I provide ... it will not change you. Only the Holy Spirit can do that and it is usually over a long period of time due to repeated exposure and life's trials.

God Bless you ... I appreciate the dialogue even when we differ.

[Woody]

Olger .... I have no desire to communicate with you outside of this forum and I will not.

I have nothing against you personally. What you seem to object is when I challenge you when I observe you hurting others with your words.

I will continue this no matter how much we dialogue here or anywhere. If you stop the offensive attacks on others ... then I will have no need to make comment. These comments appear to bother you. If that is the case ... then just stop the condescending remarks and you will not hear from me.

This forum is a place to voice comments and opinions. This I will continue to do. But I will not dialogue with you outside of this forum. I hold nothing against you. I find you a sincere Christian. But I will not set myself up for continued offline abuse as you do online. I prefer to have witnesses to what you do.

Please consider this your last response to this request. If you persist in requesting this ... I will be forced to report it to admin.

[John317]

And yes ... I agree that much of our disagreements are semantics. But we do love to hold onto our demontics OH ... I mean semantics.

I've observed that when one side feels they don't have a good argument that they resort to semantics in order to save face.

This whole issue of faith vs works and sanctification is generally one of semantics or emphasis. Both are needed and will happen in the Christian. And we both agree with that. It boils down to which one have you seen abused. That will shape your focus.

I said some time back that at least some of the disagreement was due to a misunderstanding of vocabulary and the use of Biblical terms and language. But it simply is not true that "the whole issue of faith vs. works and sanctification is generally one of semantics." There are serious issues involved and it's important to understand them as the Bible teaches them. It is true, however, that everyone does not have to see everything precisely the same, and we shouldn't insist that everyone agree with every detail.

Redwood, I was thinking about what you said regarding your opinion that I'm OK. I have a question: If I am OK, how come you keep saying I'm a legalist? If I am a legalist, you have an obligation not just to keep saying this but to show me how I am in error and how to make the correction. It means making a serious attempt to persuade me to see things differently. Being a true legalist is a serious matter. The Bible shows us that a legalist will be lost, because he is not in a faith-based relationship with Christ, which is the only ground of our salvation.

Anyhow please think about what I've said. I gotta go for now. Be back tonight.

[olger]

Very well, Sir. I am disappointed that you lack the courage to simply talk in private but that's your choice however cowardly it may seem. If you feel good about denying a brother the injunction that Jesus gave us in Matthew 18:15, then you must live with it. I tried.

It wasn't too long ago that you railed at Shane and demanded an apology from him . Who's next?

I wish I understood your fears.

All the best,

olger

[Woody]

Go to the next level of Matt. 18 Olger. But do not harrass me further. I will dialogue with you online but not offline. I will give you any apology that you request online but I will not do it offline.

Again ... I will challenge you on your condescending words that you use. Calling me names like a "coward" is something I will not let go unchallenged. You can serve your cause much better without name calling.

Feel free to ask me anything you want on this forum ... but do not pressure me further to communicate with you offline or I WILL report it to admin.

[Woody]

Since I have clearly stated that I do not believe you are lost John317.... I do not see how I have any obligation to "set you straight". I believe you are saved as I stated based on your proclamation of faith in Jesus.

I have pointed out to your our diffences in scriptural interpretation. And I will continue to do so. But that is just my opinion that happens to be different from yours. And so far you have disagreed with the scriptures I have pointed out to you. And that is fine. I have no concern left with you. I do have concern for others who read your beliefs. And that is why I voice my beliefs for those to have an option to consider.

[Woody]

For the record ... those who are saved and have faith in Jesus ... WILL have differences in the theological beliefs. Once we get to Heaven ... God will straighten us ALL out. In the meantime ... all we can do is to do our best through the Holy Spirit to understand scripture.

Study to show thyself approved unto God. YES. But we will never achieve what needs to be done until Heaven.